Buzz's Fite Mod

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I see by flipping thru all these posts and topics that this has been going on for years. I only showed up a couple months ago. I am sorry if I repeat something that has been already covered. I try to look everywhere before I ask something.

No problem, wasn't trying to make you feel foolish, or anything like that.

In the past when I ran into a 'reappearing' withdrawn unit, I would add a second withdraw event several turns after the first. It is a tedious thing to do but to me it's worth it in the end. My version is up to around 670 events so you can tell I am liberal with putting in stuff so I don't have to worry with it later. Knowing how many turns before the reconstitution helps. It's the same one to four weeks in every game?

The reappearing withdrawn unit problem has been fixed, by the way. What used to happen was that a unit that was supposed to be withdrawn, but was already scheduled to be reconstituted, was not withdrawn. THat bug is now fixed.

[sPzAbt653]

That is great news! I hadn't come across that anywhere (there are so many places to look). I've also seen alot of the great work you have done on the West Front. Haven't attempted it yet as I am in a serious Fite.

Originally we were discussing this because Karri had brought up the fact that some of the German panzer units did not reconstitute, and I had said that some whole formations, like Leibstandarte, don't reconstitute. Since it is not because of what you just cleared up, do you know why?

[larryfulkerson]

There are a lot of Soviet units that don't reconstitute either.  Most of the Soviet tank units in FITE are just gone when they are killed.  A lot of the recon units don't reconstitute.  Some of the Soviet forts don't reconstitute.  I thought it was a decision on the part of the scenario designers whether or not to let those units reconstititue or not.  Although I've been wrong before.

[freeboy]

Glen I agree the key is concentration breakthrough and brackout, BUT the Reds get to rebuilld and rebuild and rebuild with no end in sight! In 43 they are going to out build the germans and it just gets worse... I destroyed my oponents armies x3 or more,,, almost reached Grosny he had what 17% total production? YET he already massed air supperiority and destroyed me winter 4243. I am now the defender for sure.. Want to play the germans.. against me? Go for it! I dare say ytou are going to need take Moscow, Lenn, Stallingrad, archangel and all the South Baku etc in 42 to beat me... not that I am anything, but the reds are too tough over time! Can the Germans win? Not the war, but maybe the scenario, That is why many have called for a shock adjustment related to cities taken. Take Citadel, 4 turns of Shock for the Germs, and then TEN at 80! best wishes to all out there playing as German!

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Glen I agree the key is concentration breakthrough and brackout, BUT the Reds get to rebuilld and rebuild and rebuild with no end in sight! In 43 they are going to out build the germans and it just gets worse... I destroyed my oponents armies x3 or more,,, almost reached Grosny he had what 17% total production? YET he already massed air supperiority and destroyed me winter 4243. I am now the defender for sure.. Want to play the germans.. against me? Go for it! I dare say ytou are going to need take Moscow, Lenn, Stallingrad, archangel and all the South Baku etc in 42 to beat me... not that I am anything, but the reds are too tough over time! Can the Germans win? Not the war, but maybe the scenario, That is why many have called for a shock adjustment related to cities taken. Take Citadel, 4 turns of Shock for the Germs, and then TEN at 80! best wishes to all out there playing as German!

OK, I take the challenge. Give a few days to get the first turn in. I have a busy week ahead but then 3 weeks holiday.
Mail me at glennvc (at) telenet (dot) be

[Karri]

I was looking at the swedish OOB and they have 2 light cruisers and 8 destroyed in their navy. Granted it makes no difference whatsoever, but in reality their navy was bigger than that.

[freeboy]

Glen, Give me about a month to get into the next phases in my current games , I will pm u my email.. or we can start sooner but I am getting full now..

[SMK-at-work]

IIRC Soviet units that don't reconstitute are the tank divisions (which are all in play at the start or arrive shortly after), cavalry divisions, rifle brigades, fortifications, and the Fort REgions after about mid-42.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
IIRC Soviet units that don't reconstitute are the tank divisions (which are all in play at the start or arrive shortly after), cavalry divisions, rifle brigades, fortifications, and the Fort Regions after about mid-42.

What's the difference between the fortifications and the Fort Regions? Are they the same thing?

[sPzAbt653]

And what are considered 'Militia' units? I haven't seen any units named militia.

[SMK-at-work]

The fortifications are the static units with the gun icon.  The fortified regions are hte units with move 1 and hte machine-gun icon (an infantry symbol with an arrow through it).

The Kiev fortification is the first unit in the Sov OOB.  The Fortified regions belong to 3 formantions IIRC - the FR formation, which included hte Kiev unit, and the 2 main fleets - Black Sea and Baltic - in the case of these 2 they are analogues for small coastal defence forts I think.

Soviet Militia units are those that have the darker brown background (at least with the colour scheme on my machine) - there's 14 divisions in the Moscow Front, 7 or 8 in the Lenningrad Front, 1 or 2 around Kiev, a couple from Rostov & eastern Ukraine cities, plus a couple of cavalry divisions IIRC.

[Zort]

spz, here are your Militia guys in Moscow.

[sPzAbt653]

Ahhh, now I see the Militia, thank you. For some reason I thought 'Mil' stood for something else. There is a mistake in the file I sent you Buzz, I had changed the militia colors so now they won't withdraw. I have to put them back to the same color as the 'fort regions'. The Soviet OOB is listed on the http://www.ac-smolf.dk/fite/ site and has some notes as to what they did and why.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

There are a lot of Soviet units that don't reconstitute either.  Most of the Soviet tank units in FITE are just gone when they are killed.  A lot of the recon units don't reconstitute.  Some of the Soviet forts don't reconstitute.  I thought it was a decision on the part of the scenario designers whether or not to let those units reconstititue or not.  Although I've been wrong before.

The 'Background doc' talks about this, it says that most of the mech corps were disbanded or eliminated at the end of '41. I think, although the equipment and replacements wouldn't change, the Soviet player does have the 'gamey' option of moving the mech corps off to the east to keep them 'safe', a nice reserve for later! The militia units will reconstruct but we know they will withdraw on turn 82, as they were all renamed as regular divisions or disbanded. There is nothing in the doc about the fort regions though, maybe they should stay and the mech corps should be withdrawn? What do you guys think?
In the game I am playing now, on turn 8 the German 25th pz reg of the 7th pz div got attacked by several tank brigades and evaporated. Now it is lost until turn 153 when the 'new' one appears. Even though the regiment that was lost contained mostly 38t's, the better IVh's and IIIj's go into that unit way before turn 153. Let me know if I am missing something, otherwise I am going to change the pz regiments from non-reconstructing, along with the divisions like Leibstandarte and Totenkopf.
I'd also like to debate the fate of the 18th Panzer Division, if anyone else cares, my position being that there is no reason for this unit to be withdrawn.

[Zort]

Seems the history of the 18th PZD was that it was disbanded due to heavy losses in Sep (or Nov whichever book you read) 43 in the attacks around Kiev. I think this is one of those cases that history tells us one thing and what we do in the game is something else. Two units were created/rebuilt from the disbanding of the pzd, 18th Art div and 504th pz Batt. I don't think it should be withdrawn unless the 18th art div is in the game. The 504th pz batt was rebuilt from 18th pz regt of the div. This might be a good option for the german, remove the pzd and get those two units.

[Zort]

spzabt if you keep the 18th PZD in you might want to change it so it can reconstitute too.

[sPzAbt653]

From the games standpoint, you can always disband a unit if you don't want to use the assets to bring it back to strength after heavy losses. I think the german panzer divisions are important to the game. If some are withdrawn to other fronts, yes they should go. I think the 18th should stay in, and as long as there are replacements available, it should reconstitute. The 27th could also enter, it could be used as-is and not ready for combat, or could be held back until ready. This wouldn't change the production numbers.
Like I said, some units have to go, others fall into a different category. I started a West Wall '44 game to take my mind off Fite for awhile. You can drop the airborne units anywhere you want, this is great for flexability and playablility. But the 1st Airborne withdraws on its' own, because historically they did. No fun for a game though. Even if you did get them stuck in the historical situation, you could still withdraw them yourself. No reason to have the computer intervene.

Thanks Buzz.

[Karri]

Regarding the '41 panzer regiments, it is a difficult question. On the other hand if you have replacement tanks and the units is lost in a middle of attack(like I lost half of my tank regiments) then in my opinion the unit should not be considered 'destroyed'. On the other hand, you could always argue that the unit suffered such losses that it was withdrew to build the new tank regiments. It's hard to go one way or another here...

[Zort]

From what I have read concerning the pzds, it seems that if one lost its armor the div would either be withdrawn for refit or disbanded to form another unit. I don't like the fact that the soviet player knows if he kills the panzer regiments they don't come back. I tend to lean toward reconstitution. So they will take a while to be replaced but this will cause the other units to be short of equipment, more 'realistic' I think.

As for withdraws, since most scenarios are just one front or one battle, the decision to withdraw units to another front comes from a higher command. Seems most of us what to be the supreme commander and make those decisions. Guess that is what TO's could be used for, but if you keep the units then it has to be painful in some sort of way.

[sPzAbt653]

Karri, what about losing a '41 pz reg and it is not replaced until the 'new' one shows up around turn 150? Do you think the original would/should reconstitute?

Buzz, I do agree that withdrawals to other fronts should be honored. 9th and 11th pz divisions go to defend the West Wall, that's good, the SS divisions withdraw to refit, good too. But the 18th pz div? If that unit is used as a case study, then all the Soviet units that were originally destroyed should have a withdraw event? I'm definately not advocating this, just trying to make my point that historical combat casualties shouldn't dictate a withdrawal in the game. Like, should there be an event for Feb. '43 to withdraw the German 6th Army? Of course not, it would be silly. Thanks for letting me debate this, I love the 18th pz div!