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Denigrating the service record of the armed forces here is a dangrous thing to do.

So why are you talking to me for?

Fortunately, the Argentine military is world renowned for it's cowardice and incompetence...

I take every opportunity to remind you filthy apes ...

Yeah. And on the ninth day, Argentian stormtroopers would have held a victory dance at Port Stanley.

etc. etc.

Maybe this a bit off topic but does anyone know of any good recent pictures of ARA General Belgrano. I can't find any.

Strange, I can´t find any pictures of HMS Sheffield, HMS coventry, etc.,etc.,etc., either. Wait, I found them. They´re painted on the noses of Argentine aircraft.

If you ask current West Germans if they appreciated Nato, and American, troops stationed in their lands for over 30 years, you will get a near resounding "Ja!"

This is what you say. But that´s not what I´m reading from these people with Germany by their locations.

Those, and the people who demand that the US be eternally celebrated as heroes for exercising said enlightened self-interest.

I think you're wrong here. Not tanks or soldiers saved us from another great tragedy, but nuclear deterrence.

To paraphrase it: with German missiles targeting Moscow the presence of american forces would have been obsolete.

The solely reason we depended on you was due to the outcome of WW2 and the fact that Germany didn't get allowed to rebuild her military forces. Without these restriction we wouldn't need someone to guarantee our safety, neither did Germany - or Prussia before - for the past 200 years.

So there is a difference of opinion it seems.

Lastly, I doubt the Soviet Union actually had the strength to pull off what you are arguing above. Historians mostly assert now that Soviet strength was more of a paper tiger than once thought, and that there was less central control of the Soviet military than once believed.

Nuclear bombs falling on European cities is a paper tiger? If that is a paper tiger what is a real tiger for you? Your plan was to fight a conventional war and hope it doesn´t escalate to nuclear weapons right? That wasn´t their plan. Their plan was wrapped around the use of nuclear weapons from the start. And no, don´t doubt they couldn´t have and wouldn´t have delivered them because you saw East Berlin didn´t have fancy cars and clubs. After the destruction to Russia in WW2 they wouldn´t have thought a second about it.

Well, you lost two of the last 3 wars you fought and, well... aren't the folks in Prussia speaking Polish these days? No offense, of course.

Your recent record is? and, well...how many communities there are speaking Spanish these days mate?

Yeah. And on the ninth day, Argentian stormtroopers would have held a victory dance at Port Stanley. But look how much Argentina appreciates them.

The New York Times Doggie? That´s a joke. I could tear that entire article apart in 3 seconds it´s so full of lies.

The easiest one to show you would be this one.

New York Times-There is not one national war hero, not even among the daring pilots who fearlessly attacked Britain's superior fleet and sank six of its warships. It has done little to eulogize its 600 dead or console its 1,300 wounded.

Now that´s what your USA article said, here is the reality and there are many, many more.

Ike

Continuing the drift in this thread; I read that Hans Rudel was the "father of the Argentine Air Force". He apparently had to flee to Argentina because the Russians wanted to put him on trial for "war crimes". Do you have any info on his participation in the Argentine A.F.? It would seem that such a man could lay a good foundation for an air force. If true, then it should come as no surprise the RN suffered some loss from air attack.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

If you ask current West Germans if they appreciated Nato, and American, troops stationed in their lands for over 30 years, you will get a near resounding "Ja!"

This is what you say. But that´s not what I´m reading from these people with Germany by their locations.

Those, and the people who demand that the US be eternally celebrated as heroes for exercising said enlightened self-interest.

I think you're wrong here. Not tanks or soldiers saved us from another great tragedy, but nuclear deterrence.

To paraphrase it: with German missiles targeting Moscow the presence of american forces would have been obsolete.

The solely reason we depended on you was due to the outcome of WW2 and the fact that Germany didn't get allowed to rebuild her military forces. Without these restriction we wouldn't need someone to guarantee our safety, neither did Germany - or Prussia before - for the past 200 years.

So there is a difference of opinion it seems.

You're selectively quoting Lutzow.

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Nuclear bombs falling on European cities is a paper tiger? If that is a paper tiger what is a real tiger for you? Your plan was to fight a conventional war and hope it doesn´t escalate to nuclear weapons right? That wasn´t their plan. Their plan was wrapped around the use of nuclear weapons from the start. And no, don´t doubt they couldn´t have and wouldn´t have delivered them because you saw East Berlin didn´t have fancy cars and clubs. After the destruction to Russia in WW2 they wouldn´t have thought a second about it.

The fact that they never carried out an attack would seem to indicate that they did in fact think about it.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Well, you lost two of the last 3 wars you fought and, well... aren't the folks in Prussia speaking Polish these days? No offense, of course.

Your recent record is? and, well...how many communities there are speaking Spanish these days mate?

Now you are quoting me out of context. My comment was in direct response to Lutzow's claim that Germany and more precisely Prussia (point of origin of some of my ancestors) was strong enough to stand alone. I disagree, as does SireChaos who's also German. Both have responded in an appropriate and polite manner and I have no conflict with them and I hope they have none with me.

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

@Mike Dubost:
What the HELL are you saying there? Don´t you know that you have a stereotype of an insular, ignorant, arrogant American to be true to? [&:]
Seriously, though... thanks for that reply. I am well aware that most Americans are not at all like the [expletive deleted]s that steal so much screen time - though it would help if you guys spoke up a little more often.

I do have a rather unique perspective on a few things. Growing up as a conservative Republican in Marin County* always made me feel like a real oddball. [:'(]

I am glad that you found my remarks interesting. I am not sure which of my remarks in particular caused you to joke about the stereotype, since I do have several non-stereotypical opinions. The fact that I think the US is best does not mean that I have to try to prove everyone else is bad. I would rather be the best of a good lot than the best of a bad lot.

I happen to think that Churchill's characterization of the Marshall Plan as a "most unsordid act" is both precise and accurate. This characterization recognizes the fact that very few acts of any nation are ever wholey altruistic, while also recognizing that the US chose a generous course of action out of the available sub-set of actions that would serve our national interest. In short, the enlightened part of enlightened self interest [;)]. However, it does appear to me to be useless to deny the obvious fact that avoiding a new world war was clearly in the interest of the US.

As far as my remarks on Latin America, having a relative who married into a weathly Guatemalan family may have influenced my thinking a bit. It is true that "our SOB" was usually not much worse than the other guy, but that is a very low bar to cross. I wish we had spent more effort on looking beyond the Kleptocrat of the Month Club when finding "our SOB". Yeah, there may have been a shortage of people with completely clean hands who could have goverened effectively, but we could have found someone who would not have allowed the Guatemalan police to set up car theft rings. [True story, my Guatemalan cousins warned us about the car theft rings at some time in the 1980s, I forget exactly when].

As far as the obnoxious individuals making most of the noise, in my opionion, that is partly due to a "why bother" feeling on the part of the rest of us. So often, it appears that those who oppose US policy begin with a more general bashing of the US and of US citizens. To be blunt, Doggie's rants read to me like pastiches of Ike99's style in some ways. They both appear to go immediately for the "you're evil and stupid" routine. If someone like Doggie rubs you the wrong way as the self-styled voice of the US, think how Ike99 and his ilk sound to me as the self-styled voice of the opposition. You are more likely to respond to a civil post, and so are we. The ones who do respond to the bomb-throwers are usually the ones who like to throw the bombs back. I do sometimes try a calm post in response to see if I can actually get a civilized debate, but I usually strike out swinging on that one. After a while, it gets to feel like too much effort for too little return.

I believe that at some point we will simply agree to disagree, but it is interesting to see where the limits of our disagreements are. This is, in fact, one of the reasons I enjoy reading periodicals from outside the US.

*Edited to explain that Marin County is a notoriously left-wing part of the San Francisco Bay Area. If you follow US politics, you will sometimes see "Marin County Democrat" used as a synomym for "so far to the left they're hanging onto the wing by their fingernails" or for "limousine liberal". This particular stereotype, while exagerated, is not entirely unrelated to reality. Marin County is both wealthier than average and far to the left of the US political center.

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubos Marin County is both wealthier than average and far to the left of the US political center.

Funny that the most conservative radio host in America lives in such a place. Mike Savage is truly a great one-a bit off the wall sometimes, but one of the few that dares to speak the truth.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Strange, I can´t find any pictures of HMS Sheffield, HMS coventry, etc.,etc.,etc., either. Wait, I found them. They´re painted on the noses of Argentine aircraft.

[/quote]

Have your generals got pictures of all their own people they murdered hanging in their dayroom? Did you go with Daddy to the torture chambers on "take your kid to work" day?

ORIGINAL: E

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: E



I'm not a mathematician, but I can assure you that if I only play with complimentary chips, I cannot lose any of my own money. That is a no-lose system! Granted, it's not necessarily a winning system either, but I suffer no monetary losses from gambling using it. *grin*

OK. It's a no-lose-your-own-money system. It's not a no-lose system. All the best.

Cheers, Neilster

Ah, but a no-lose-your-own-money system is a no-lose system in my book**! *grin* (sorry we can't use your book, as it is obviously upside down *grin*) Let's move on to something that is debatable... which side would you like to play? "Your country sucks" or "My country can do no wrong?" *grin*

**See page 4 under the connect the dots illustration 1-2.

I'll play Australia, champ. It's got a solid record and I've defended it.

Cheers, Neilster

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Yes, I understand that interjecting facts into left wing fantasies is considered "arrogant". After all, some Green Party college boy born a decade after I left cold war Germany knows a hell of a lot more about it than I do. And how obnoxious and insulting of me to thank the german people I met during that time for their graciousness and generosity. I am sorry I insulted your country by volunteering to defend it for more than eight years while your own young pacifists were overdosing on heroin in Bahnhof toilets.

Insinuating 'left leaned' phantasies because I have a different view is as ridiculous as holding Ike99 responsible for crimes of former Argentinian government, or believing every American would agree to the actions of your president. Anyway, debating with narrow-minded people is a waste of time and leads to nothing. So I'm going to stop it here.

Have a nice day.

ORIGINAL: Lützow


Insinuating 'left leaned' phantasies because I have a different view is as ridiculous as holding Ike99 responsible for crimes of former Argentinian government, or believing every American would agree to the actions of your president.
Have a nice day.

Nah, I'm insinuating left leaning fantasies because neither you nor Ike can resist telling us how much Americans suck. I notice you don't seem to have any problems with Ike the fascist fan boy, but anything an American has to say offends you,

You're welcome for the sixty years, billions of dollars, and thousands of lives, btw.

ORIGINAL: yoshino

English is very very very difficult for me.[:D] I'm learning a few years to participate this forum(and other game forums),but still can't writing well.

Though,I think that Japanese language is more difficult for many westerners.

They MUST be learned about thousands of Kanji and Hinagana and Katakana...[:'(] There is first of all...

I thought the Japanese language was fairly easy. And I learned hiragana and katakana OK.

but the kanji, oh god. [&:]
[&:][X(]

I forgot it all now anyway. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Allied restrictions on German re armqament are the only reason Germany still exists. An announcement about a Bundeswehr atomic weapons program in 1950 would have been the first page in the history of World War III.

This is very true, I've read a few WWIII scenarios and quite a few of them started off with Soviet outrage at a German threat to go nuclear.

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
Hell, yes. By the accounts, East Germany was among the healthier Warsaw Pact economies, and... well, I´ve been there several times shortly after the Wall fell, and, let´s say, I was not impressed. Downtrodden, backwards, in disrepair, derelict... you´ll have to excuse me, English is not my first language and I´m running out of applicable terms.

According to my Slovak beloved, East Germany was supposed to be the paramount part of the Soviet bloc but was, in her opinion, overrated. But apparently their leaders were very arrogant.
Given she hardly says good things about Slovakia I doubt its nationalism talking there.

According to her the dunce cap of the Eastern bloc was worn by Vietnam. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Just wondering...are those pictures from The Falkland Islands?

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Maybe this a bit off topic but does anyone know of any good recent pictures of ARA General Belgrano. I can't find any.

Strange, I can´t find any pictures of HMS Sheffield, HMS coventry, etc.,etc.,etc., either. Wait, I found them. They´re painted on the noses of Argentine aircraft.

as for this, Ike....way to go dragging other nations into your little fight

From your comment above, you have turned into what you have grown to despise (or at least uncovered the real you)

If you look back through the posts, you'll be hard pushed to show it was a Brit who mentioned the Belgrano, and yet you sneer at lost lives by pointing out pictures of the UK ships sunk are on your aircraft?

Well, I won't follow you down the tunnel of despair and desecration...all I will say is thx [8|]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Maybe this a bit off topic but does anyone know of any good recent pictures of ARA General Belgrano. I can't find any.

Strange, I can´t find any pictures of HMS Sheffield, HMS coventry, etc.,etc.,etc., either. Wait, I found them. They´re painted on the noses of Argentine aircraft.

I find your comments over the Falklands Campaign in thoroughly bad taste.I personally lost several good friends in this conflict and continue to work with the Aftermath of the Conflict.It shows your total lack of respect for BOTH sides in the aforesaid conflict.If it wasnt for the sacrifices of the Armed Forces of any country we wouldnt have the freedoms we enjoy today.

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

ORIGINAL: Ike99

[If it was ¨selfless¨ as you say then why do you keep talking about it all the time as if they owe you something!! If it was true so ¨selfless¨ you wouldn´t say anything about it at all now would you?

It could be said we were the the "gravy train" for Germany. Not only were billions pumped into the economy by the normal means, but there were other little benefits. Occasionally, during winter only, the U.S. Army would conduct exercises in local areas instead of the major training bases such as Graffenweer (spell?), Hohenfells, and a couple of others. In every village, the people would come out to right down our convoy numbers so they could cash in on payouts for anything we allegedly damaged (streets, curbs, fencing, etc.) I know that on occasions, the damage was not cause by us-they were simply suckling on Uncle Sam. Farm fields were another great source of income-even without crops, due to our presence. IIRC, it was ten dollars a lineal foot of track rut in a field-and there were a lot of them. These local training areas were necessary to use as we were training to fight, and win being out numbered at least 5 to one-it was for the common cause. There was on uproar when the American public found out about a few 600 dollar toilet seats for the Air Force-good thing they never heard about the farm field ruts. Speaking of farms, a German farmer visiting us in the field told my platoon he was happy to have the U.S. Army using his land because, "Americans bury there crap, the other armies just leave it on the ground.

Brings back memories from Taiwan. Our family lived there during my dad's tods in Vietnam. I was only 3 or 4 at the time, but one of my earliest memories was having poultry thrown at our car when we went into town. Several years later I asked my dad about it. He said that the locals would throw their old chickens and chickens who no longer laid eggs so it could be claimed that they had been killed by US citizens. They would then be reimbursed by the US. Always wondered how that system was set up or worked. I've never been able to watch the movie Birds.

On an almost entirely unrelated note.. who was it that said (?)

"Natural law is like a Guinea pig -- which is neither from Guinea nor a pig."

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
Brings back memories from Taiwan. Our family lived there during my dad's tods in Vietnam. I was only 3 or 4 at the time, but one of my earliest memories was having poultry thrown at our car when we went into town. Several years later I asked my dad about it. He said that the locals would throw their old chickens and chickens who no longer laid eggs so it could be claimed that they had been killed by US citizens. They would then be reimbursed by the US. Always wondered how that system was set up or worked. I've never been able to watch the movie Birds.

That is a hilarious situation-I can picture that happening. It is interesting that our good friends behaved this way for the almighty dollar-what would our enemy's do for the dollar. One thing for certain; there will be a lot of sad people when Uncle Sams Gravy Train pulls out of town for the last time.

If you look back through the posts, you'll be hard pushed to show it was a Brit who mentioned the Belgrano, and yet you sneer at lost lives by pointing out pictures of the UK ships sunk are on your aircraft?

I offer a proposal to you JD. When this comment is edited out the forum...

Maybe this a bit off topic but does anyone know of any good recent pictures of ARA General Belgrano. I can't find any.

Then my sharp reponse to it about your ships sunk will be too.

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
"Natural law is like a Guinea pig -- which is neither from Guinea nor a pig."

The last thing that was needed was for the Italians to be dragged into this thread.