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Turn 48

Overall
The last of the winter penalty is gone, and so is most of the mud. Our panzers and infantry lash out, and we bagged a few units, but ofc we also had the hmmm laughable? Insane? Annoying? good USSR rolls from time to time, and I also counted no less than 8 USSR reserve activations...Furthermore, the USSR position seems strong. REALLY strong.
The USSR launched 1 attack, but only scored a held, while our 30 attacks resulted in 6 helds and 24 retreats this turn.

Losses
USSR : 57.000 troops, 759 guns, 77 AFVs, 227 AC.
Axis : 33.000 troops, 336 guns, 125 AFVs, 57 AC.

USSR units in pockets
8.

Partisans
Out of the 5 on the map, we delt with 4.

German Pools
Manpower : 134.632
Vehicles : 116.178
Armaments : 180.465?? I REALLY hope I mistyped and that it should be 480.465...
Hiwi : 8

Turn 49

Overall
And then again there was....MUD...No no, not at all annoying at this time [:D]
The USSR seems to keep their offensive state of mind, and deliver 17 attacks, scoring 8 helds, 8 retreats and 1 rout (Rumanian). We only manage 6 attacks in the mud, and score 1 held (surrounded units against deliberate attacks from 2.5 stacks (8 divs)), 4 retreats and 1 surrender.

Losses
USSR : 89.000 troops, 1.040 guns, 7 AFVs, 192 AC.
Axis : 37.000 troops, 325 guns, 85 AFVs, 40 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
8.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
3.

USSR units destroyed
1 Cavalry Corps, 3 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle Brigade.

Partisans
We delt with 3 of the 5 that was on the map.

German Pools
Manpower : 141.823
Vehicles : 126.378
Armaments : 487.512
Hiwi : 1

Turn 50

Overall
Mud mud mud mud mud mud mud mud mud...
All we did was to eliminate the surrounded units we did not manage to kill off last turn. Even the USSR remained passive this time around.

Losses
USSR : 44.000 troops, 359 guns, 2 AFVs, 28 AC.
Axis : 24.000 troops, 76 guns, 34 AFVs, 7 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
3.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
0.

USSR units destroyed
1 Rifle Division, 1 Rifle Brigade and 1 Naval Rifle Brigade.

Partisans
5 started on the map, only 1 remain.

German Pools
Manpower : 148.882
Vehicles : 120.811
Armaments : 497.840
Hiwi : 8
That does it, from now on I DEMAND trucks from Volvo, atleast on those I can perform some emergency repairs myself!!!

Turn 51

Overall
The mud is gone all over, and we strike as many positions as possible, and we breech the USSR line in a few places. Too bad there are more lines that needs to be breeched further back...The USSR does nothing, while we manage to launch 29 attacks, for a result of 1 held and 28 retreats.

Losses
USSR : 53.000 troops, 703 guns, 50 AFVs, 141 AC.
Axis : 32.000 troops, 292 guns, 132 AFVs, 38 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
0.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
2.

# of USSR reserve activations
2.

USSR units destroyed
2 fortified regions.

Partisans
All 5 removed.

German Pools
Manpower : 140.440
Vehicles : 119.816
Armaments : 504.947
Hiwi : 2

Turn 52

Overall
The USSR breaks open the one pocket we made last turn, and they even form one of their own in the north. We get our troops to safety, but I am deeply concerned. I fear I might soon have to start to dig in and prepare to try to simply hold out. The USSR made 23 attacks and scored 7 helds and 16 retreats. This is a concern, especially since they force a stack of three German Infantry Divisions to retreat...Also worrying is our own successrate. 43 attacks resulted in 14 helds and 29 retreats, or 33% failed attacks (I think only 2 were hasty attacks). To aid to the frustration, partisans cut the railroads we had our airfields on, so no fuel could be flown to our panzers this turn.

Losses
USSR : ??.000 troops, ??? guns, ?? AFVs, ??? AC.
Axis : 32.000 troops, 292 guns, 132 AFVs, 38 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
0.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
11.

# of USSR reserve activations
4.

USSR units destroyed
1 fortified region.

Partisans
All 5 removed.

German Pools
Manpower : 135.806
Vehicles : 123.813
Armaments : 482.291
Hiwi : 12

Turn 53

Overall
This turn has me severly worried. The losses I am taking cannot be sustained for long, especially since one stack of panzers alone lost almost 7.000 troops this turn. And if a stack of 3 panzers cannot hold, then I simply cannot hold any pocket I form. Worrying indeed...
The USSR lashed out this turn, performing a total of 25 attacks for a result of 11 helds and 14 retreats, while we managed no more than 43 attacks. Our score was 13 helds, 29 retreats and 1 surrender.

Losses
USSR : 120.000 troops, 1.587 guns, 137 AFVs, 239 AC.
Axis : 74.000 troops, 993 guns, 287 AFVs, 51 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
3.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
12.

# of USSR reserve activations
5.

USSR units destroyed
3 Rifle Division.

Axis units destroyed
The 616th Jagdpanzer Battalion is destroyed in combat.

Partisans
Only 2 appeared, both were taken out.

German Pools
Manpower : 128.623
Vehicles : 129.783
Armaments : 454.575
Hiwi : 14

This is where I was in my game....but in June of 43. The losses you are taking are unsustainable unfortunately. The main drawback is going to be armaments. When I went to the defense I had 4 million men and 700k armaments in the bank. Although the fighting was brutal I didn't start losing until armaments ran out. Once armaments go out its a downward spiral with only brief pauses during mud.

I'm not trying to be negative but its my take. I think in my next game if I get shut down to hard in 41 I will ask for a surrender. You have to have a good 41 and a good 42 for the game to be a decent long game. Even if you lose it still makes it fun. I wish you the best of luck but I am betting you won't see a hint of 1945.

The Soviets in the hands of good players are simply too strong too soon in 1941. The game needs a lower morale level for Russia in 41 and a rule(s) to stop them running in July/August.

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

This is where I was in my game....but in June of 43. The losses you are taking are unsustainable unfortunately. The main drawback is going to be armaments. When I went to the defense I had 4 million men and 700k armaments in the bank. Although the fighting was brutal I didn't start losing until armaments ran out. Once armaments go out its a downward spiral with only brief pauses during mud.

I'm not trying to be negative but its my take. I think in my next game if I get shut down to hard in 41 I will ask for a surrender. You have to have a good 41 and a good 42 for the game to be a decent long game. Even if you lose it still makes it fun. I wish you the best of luck but I am betting you won't see a hint of 1945.

Yeah I know, my goal now is to try to reach -44.
I have;
1. played poorly
2. been outplayed
3. lost some crucial dice rolls
Where #2 is the main thing, followed by #1.

Terje

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The Soviets in the hands of good players are simply too strong too soon in 1941. The game needs a lower morale level for Russia in 41 and a rule(s) to stop them running in July/August.

From the modified CV rolls I am seeing, I wonder if this is a combination of morale, reserve activation (not the concept itself, but the CV of those reserve units. I've seen tank brigades add 12 CV...), and too strong USSR leaders early on?
Almost makes me want a game option like in FoF, where you could play with ahistorical leaders with hidden ratings.
Let's face it, both sides play with 20/20 hindsight, and this makes both sides make leadership adjustments that was not really plausible at the time.
I do not see Hitler appointing Guderian as overall commander, nor do I see Zhukov taking command of Stavka as a viable option in -41.



Terje

Turn 54

Overall
When I opened the turn, I realized that the USSR was trying to encircle some of my troops in the north. How rude! The situation was delt with, I am just grateful that I faced divisions. Soon it will be rifle corps that are that rude. That will be interesting.
This turn I placed one army in static mode to reduce some wear and tear, I do not think I can place more of them on static though, as I need the MP available if the USSR keeps being rude.
Our PzAs finally met and formed a decent pocket this turn. Point is however that I had hoped to achieve this 3-4 turns ago. The clock is definitively ticking.
15 USSR attacks resulted in 9 helds and 6 retreats, while our 46 attacks gave us 10 helds, 28 retreats, 3 routs and 5 surrenders.

Losses
USSR : 190.000 troops, 2.734 guns, 198 AFVs, 338 AC.
Axis : 55.000 troops, 630 guns, 195 AFVs, 138 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
12.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
20.

# of USSR reserve activations
1.

USSR units destroyed
1 Tank Brigade, 9 Rifle Divisions and 2 Guards Rifle Divisions.

Partisans
Once more only 2 appeared, and both were delt with.

German Pools
Manpower : 112.852
Vehicles : 137.476
Armaments : 424.249
Hiwi : 2

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The Soviets in the hands of good players are simply too strong too soon in 1941. The game needs a lower morale level for Russia in 41 and a rule(s) to stop them running in July/August.

From the modified CV rolls I am seeing, I wonder if this is a combination of morale, reserve activation (not the concept itself, but the CV of those reserve units. I've seen tank brigades add 12 CV...), and too strong USSR leaders early on?
Almost makes me want a game option like in FoF, where you could play with ahistorical leaders with hidden ratings.
Let's face it, both sides play with 20/20 hindsight, and this makes both sides make leadership adjustments that was not really plausible at the time.
I do not see Hitler appointing Guderian as overall commander, nor do I see Zhukov taking command of Stavka as a viable option in -41.



Terje

Er...Zhukov did command STAVKA for a while in 1941. He was chief of staff at the start of the war until getting sacked in August.

And Guderian eventually became chief of staff of OKH himself, in 1944.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The Soviets in the hands of good players are simply too strong too soon in 1941. The game needs a lower morale level for Russia in 41 and a rule(s) to stop them running in July/August.

From the modified CV rolls I am seeing, I wonder if this is a combination of morale, reserve activation (not the concept itself, but the CV of those reserve units. I've seen tank brigades add 12 CV...), and too strong USSR leaders early on?
Almost makes me want a game option like in FoF, where you could play with ahistorical leaders with hidden ratings.
Let's face it, both sides play with 20/20 hindsight, and this makes both sides make leadership adjustments that was not really plausible at the time.
I do not see Hitler appointing Guderian as overall commander, nor do I see Zhukov taking command of Stavka as a viable option in -41.



Terje

Er...Zhukov did command STAVKA for a while in 1941. He was chief of staff at the start of the war until getting sacked in August.

And Guderian eventually became chief of staff of OKH himself, in 1944.

Ah lol true. But Guderian would not have been appointed to CoS OKH in -41. Problem still persists in that we know who to place where to maximize every dice throw, and imo that is something that unbalances things. But yeah, nice catch on my lack of USSR hierarchy [;)]


Terje

at least that turn, if one ignores the lack of manners by the Soviets, saw a decent progress for you. Much better loss ratio and a decent pocket at the end of it.

ORIGINAL: loki100

at least that turn, if one ignores the lack of manners by the Soviets, saw a decent progress for you. Much better loss ratio and a decent pocket at the end of it.

Yeah, but that figures, as I am/have been kicking the USSR out of their fortified positions, and until they reach the next line I will fight against lower CV.
But the lack of manners is a concern [;)]


Terje

As always, there is the dilemma of historical accuracy vs. fun game. Maybe each scenario should start with as much historicity as possible and then allow more and more changes as the scenario develops. This forum has identified a wealth of details that could be "corrected." But, I play for fun while appreciating historicity.

ORIGINAL: rrbill

As always, there is the dilemma of historical accuracy vs. fun game. Maybe each scenario should start with as much historicity as possible and then allow more and more changes as the scenario develops. This forum has identified a wealth of details that could be "corrected." But, I play for fun while appreciating historicity.

Ah, but my PoW is from neither imo. I am talking about game balance. And it becomes an issue both ways, when we can maximize the leader pools, maximize reserve activation etc etc. Sure there are lots of things that could be better. In the defence of Berlin, I have difficulty seing Hitler allowing a Pz Div equip with nothing but Tigers if they were available etc etc.

But the problem is one of balance, and I do not claim to have all the answers (in fact I do not claim to have any), but try to point at a few factors that is something worth looking at.

I still stand by the statement that the main reason for my poor progress in this game is very good USSR play followed by crap play by myself. That is not questionable, but what I did was point at a few things that pushes things further askew when things go off the normal track.

Fun, oh, I still have fun, if not I would have surrendered the game long ago [;)]

Terje

As we drift slowly toward WITE2.0 this game will still get played by a lot of people, me included. But as the core base of players become familiar with optimal Soviet play it is going to become harder and harder to get anywhere with Germany. Perhaps even harder to find willing German players unless there is a mulitiude of HR, which is where I am at now. For me there are 3 key areas that need to be addressed. Soviet morale in 1941, Soviet running in 1941 and Soviet Reserve activation in 1941. If these issues were adjusted IMO it would make a much more fun and balanced game. But ATM no one from within the inner circle acknowledge there is a problem. So we use HR and maybe tweak the initial morale settings to try and get it right. I wish those morale settings worked on a per year basis. As then it would be a simple tweak to 1941 Soviet morale and let the rest of the war go as is. But if we change Soviet morale down it stays down the whole war which is not what is needed or even desried. I think I might try and ask for that option. See if any support could be rounded up.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

As we drift slowly toward WITE2.0 this game will still get played by a lot of people, me included. But as the core base of players become familiar with optimal Soviet play it is going to become harder and harder to get anywhere with Germany. Perhaps even harder to find willing German players unless there is a mulitiude of HR, which is where I am at now. For me there are 3 key areas that need to be addressed. Soviet morale in 1941, Soviet running in 1941 and Soviet Reserve activation in 1941. If these issues were adjusted IMO it would make a much more fun and balanced game. But ATM no one from within the inner circle acknowledge there is a problem. So we use HR and maybe tweak the initial morale settings to try and get it right. I wish those morale settings worked on a per year basis. As then it would be a simple tweak to 1941 Soviet morale and let the rest of the war go as is. But if we change Soviet morale down it stays down the whole war which is not what is needed or even desried. I think I might try and ask for that option. See if any support could be rounded up.

The part I placed in bold is the very essence of the "disease" that is riding this game atm. But imo it works for both sides (Lvov pocket being one example for the other side), however the problem is that the Axis is "supposed" to kill USSR troops and take territory early on for the game to more or less balance itself.
But, I will play it out and see where I end. I am still having fun with this game, but I am eager to see what Wite 2.0 will look like. However I think that some of the issues (for me) (like mandatory withdrawals etc) will still be something I will complain about [;)]
That is however the problem with making a game that deals solely with one front I am afraid.


Terje

Turn 55

Overall
The USSR decided not to be rude this turn, but they did run to the next fortified line, so I will have to breech another line. They did ofc reopen the pocket formed last turn by forcing 3 PzDivs to retreat with high casualties once more. With 100 VPs to go for a victory things are not really looking that good [:D]
The USSR launched 23 attacks, scoring them 9 helds, 4 scouted and 10 retreats. Our 15 (!!) attacks gave 1 held and 14 retreats. My brave Italians are digging like moles now, I need to get defensive lines in place sooner rather than later I fear.

Losses
USSR : 71.000 troops, 843 guns, 16 AFVs, 330 AC.
Axis : 53.000 troops, 589 guns, 112 AFVs, 75 AC.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
0.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
19.

# of USSR reserve activations
1.

USSR units destroyed
None.

Partisans
Delt with both of them.

German Pools
Manpower : 100.177
Vehicles : 139.339
Armaments : 388.537
Hiwi : 1