Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I take it one of the four is NOT

Quickly move the unit again in hopes nobody notices?

Yes - not one of the four.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

It just seams strange to me that rail supply can go through hexes if a friendly unit is present and resources can't.

[

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
• into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit); or
• into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees; or
• into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
• across an alpine hexside; or
• across a lake hexside (except when frozen); or
• across an all sea hexside that isn’t a straits hexside (except as an overseas supply path); or
• for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.

Those are the rules. The game just "works" better this way - especially for supply to be that way.

There are many rules like this - look at all the differences for counting range to/from HQs for supply, re-org, and O-chits. Why are ships at sea always in supply and don't need a system to trace to the oil they need but do need to have the oil available for final re-org?

It's a complicated game with many opportunities to forget things or do them incorrectly.

Is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]


I know you all are thinking I'm "acting like a dog with a bone" here but I assure you it is not intentional.

I'm not trying to "count coup" (an Native American term), score points, or be intentionally obstinate.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]


I know you all are thinking I'm "acting like a dog with a bone" here but I assure you it is not intentional.

I'm not trying to "count coup" (an Native American term), score points, or be intentionally obstinate.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

The rationales for rules being the way they are is far beyond my pay grade.[:D]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]

Why would a ruling be needed? It is completely clear in the rules of the game. If we play the game then we must be comfortable with its rules. If someone wants the rules to be different, they can house rule it and look for an opponent willing to play them with those house rules. However nobody will be playing MWiF that way.

Here is how we came to our conclusion that when a resource's move enters a ZOC a friendly unit negates the ZOC.

Transporting resources by rail
You transport a resource to a factory in the production step by railing it from its hex to a usable factory. It must move along railway lines (roads count as railways for this purpose). It can also cross a straits hexside from one railway hex to another. Each resource cannot cross more than 1 straits hexsides.

This move does not count as a rail move and the resource does not have to start its move at a station.

The move can only pass through:
• hexes you control;
• hexes in neutral minor countries; and
• hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.

Allied major powers (except the USSR) may only trace resources through Soviet controlled hexes while the USSR is at war with Germany.

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A resource can’t be transported across a straits if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area (see 2.4.2 Tracing supply).

1) It is a rail move that doesn't count against the rail movement allowance allocated by selecting an action type.
2) Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) both allow movement through a enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex with the ZOC,
3) The resource hex becomes the resource’s station of origin only for the resource's move.
4) The factory hex becomes the resource’s destination only for the resource's move..
5) Therefore the resource’s move can only enter a factory hex or leave a resource hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex.
6) The resource's move is stopped if it enters an enemy ZOC that doesn't contain a friendly unit in the hex.

Railway supply paths
A hex a railway supply path enters, by moving along a railway or road, does not count against the 4 hex limit. A hex it enters across a straits hexside also does not count against the limit, so long as the hexes on either side of the straits are railway hexes.

The 4 non-rail hexes can occur anywhere along the path. Although you will mostly use them to trace supply from an HQ to the railhead, they can be handy for re-routing around an enemy unit that’s blocking a vital rail link.

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
• into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit); or
• into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees; or
• into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 Running Vichy France and Sweden ~ see 19.7 Axis minor countries); or
• across an alpine hexside; or
• across a lake hexside (except when frozen); or
• across an all sea hexside that isn’t a straits hexside (except as an overseas supply path); or
• for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A unit can’t trace supply across a straits hexside, if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area.

11.10 Rail movement
Rail movement lets you quickly move land and aircraft units and factories over long distances.

How to rail move
You can rail move a unit or factory if it is at a station. A [/i]station[/i] is any city hex, port hex or hex with an HQ. An HQ is its own station, so it can rail to or from any rail hex, even one that is not a port or city.

You can move the unit or factory from one station to any other station, over any distance. However, you can only move along railway lines (i.e. each hex you enter must be connected by a railway line to the hex you leave). Your side must control each hex you enter.

Your rail move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in that hex both before and after the rail move. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

A unit can rail move across a straits hexside if there is a rail line in the hex on either side of the straits. Only 1 unit a side can rail move across each straits hexside in a turn.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

2) Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) both allow movement through a enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex with the ZOC,

The rules of the game state that a unit moving by rail, once moving, must stop as soon as it enters an enemy ZOC. For a unit moving by rail to leave its origin hex OR enter its destination hex when those hexes are in enemy ZOCs - those hexes must be occupied by a friendly unit. Otherwise the move can't be made due to the presence of the enemy ZOCs.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
6) The resource's move is stopped if it enters an enemy ZOC that doesn't contain a friendly unit in the hex.

The rules of the game state that both a unit and a resource must stop their rail move when they enter an enemy ZOC.

So if you are trying to equate moving a resource by rail with moving a unit by rail to prove they don't have to stop when entering an enemy ZOC that is not their destination hex, then yes they are equitable situations that serve to totally disprove your assertion.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

2) Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) both allow movement through a enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex with the ZOC,

A)The rules of the game state that a unit moving by rail, once moving, must stop as soon as it enters an enemy ZOC. For a unit moving by rail to leave its origin hex OR enter its destination hex when those hexes are in enemy ZOCs - those hexes must be occupied by a friendly unit. Otherwise the move can't be made due to the presence of the enemy ZOCs.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
6) The resource's move is stopped if it enters an enemy ZOC that doesn't contain a friendly unit in the hex.

B) The rules of the game state that both a unit and a resource must stop their rail move when they enter an enemy ZOC.

So if you are trying to equate moving a resource by rail with moving a unit by rail to prove they don't have to stop when entering an enemy ZOC that is not their destination hex, then yes they are equitable situations that serve to totally disprove your assertion.

The logic we use is if I can rail units and supplies then I should be able to rail resources back rather than empty trains.

A) Since I posted both Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) I take it you are really disagreeing with...

5) Therefore the resource’s move can only enter a factory hex or leave a resource hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex.


B) Do you see a similarity here [&:]

11.10 Rail movement
Your rail move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in that hex both before and after the rail move. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

Or do you also play 11.10 Rail movement as you do your version of resource's moves [&:]

Again is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]

It is stated exactly in the rules:

"The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC".

This is the rule. Now, I'm not an native English speaker, however I don't think there is any doubt that this rule can be explained differently. It is there and all other things you are stating have nothing to do with the movement of resources. Supply determination has different rules, so has rail movement of land units. Those rules have nothing to do with the rules on transporting resources.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is stated exactly in the rules:

"The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC".

This is the rule. Now, I'm not an native English speaker, however I don't think there is any doubt that this rule can be explained differently. It is there and all other things you are stating have nothing to do with the movement of resources. Supply determination has different rules, so has rail movement of land units. Those rules have nothing to do with the rules on transporting resources.

So your saying there is difference between railing supplies in and resources out?

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
• into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit);

I can assure you that even today that if you are not part of the crew the military considers troops embarked aboard ships and aircraft as cargo.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is stated exactly in the rules:

"The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC".

This is the rule. Now, I'm not an native English speaker, however I don't think there is any doubt that this rule can be explained differently. It is there and all other things you are stating have nothing to do with the movement of resources. Supply determination has different rules, so has rail movement of land units. Those rules have nothing to do with the rules on transporting resources.

So your saying there is difference between railing supplies in and resources out?

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
• into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit);

I can assure you that even today that if you are not part of the crew the military considers troops embarked aboard ships and aircraft as cargo.

According to the rules, there is a difference between supply and resource transportation. We have to play by the book... If you don't like it, I can't do a thing about it. If you want to make a discussion about the rules, go and see if the rules committee agrees with you.

Historically I think that military command would give more priorities to make sure that units are in supply than to see if resources pass through a front line area. The rules seems to reflect this by allowing supply lines through enemy ZOC (with friendly units in the hex) and disallowing resource transportation through enemy ZOC...

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Again is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]

There are two possibilities here.

a) You lack the ability to comprehend the written word; or
b) You are being intentionally obtuse.

In either case, further posts on this subject are pointless.

I presented My view of the rule My post # 166 as an example


Since no one has said this has been submitted to the Yahoo Group that means this is just something you all have come up with.

My post # 163
My post # 168


Since no one has touched "11.10 Rail movement".

My post # 166
My post # 168


I have to assume you all have decided that when you use rail movement (of units) you have to stop in any enemy ZOC instead of proceeding to a friendly station.

The rail movement (of units) and a resource's move are written exactly the same way.

11.10 Rail movement
You can rail move a unit or factory if it is at a station. A station is any city hex, port hex or hex with an HQ. An HQ is its own station, so it can rail to or from any rail hex, even one that is not a port or city.

You can move the unit or factory from one station to any other station, over any distance. However, you can only move along railway lines (i.e. each hex you enter must be connected by a railway line to the hex you leave). Your side must control each hex you enter.

Your rail move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in that hex both before and after the rail move. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

I keep giving examples of my understanding (which are ignored) of your interpretations of the rules.

I gave you all a simple flowchart My post # 154 which you all are ignoring.


I am reading this thread of the forum exactly as you all are presenting it to me.

And when you run out of arguments you say I cant read?

I can't read your minds and if you don't post replies to questions I can't read posts that don't exist.

Extraneous, you seem to be fighting the rules.

How are you trying to learn the game? Do you have the board game or CWiF?

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

2) Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) both allow movement through a enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex with the ZOC,

A)The rules of the game state that a unit moving by rail, once moving, must stop as soon as it enters an enemy ZOC. For a unit moving by rail to leave its origin hex OR enter its destination hex when those hexes are in enemy ZOCs - those hexes must be occupied by a friendly unit. Otherwise the move can't be made due to the presence of the enemy ZOCs.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
6) The resource's move is stopped if it enters an enemy ZOC that doesn't contain a friendly unit in the hex.

B) The rules of the game state that both a unit and a resource must stop their rail move when they enter an enemy ZOC.

So if you are trying to equate moving a resource by rail with moving a unit by rail to prove they don't have to stop when entering an enemy ZOC that is not their destination hex, then yes they are equitable situations that serve to totally disprove your assertion.

The logic we use is if I can rail units and supplies then I should be able to rail resources back rather than empty trains.

A) Since I posted both Railway supply paths and Rail movement (of units) I take it you are really disagreeing with...

5) Therefore the resource’s move can only enter a factory hex or leave a resource hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex.


B) Do you see a similarity here [&:]

11.10 Rail movement
Your rail move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in that hex both before and after the rail move. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

Or do you also play 11.10 Rail movement as you do your version of resource's moves [&:]

Again is this a Yahoo group ruling or just something you are all comfortable with [&:]

The logic we use is if I can rail units and supplies then I should be able to rail resources back rather than empty trains.

Logic has very little to do with what you wrote.[:(]

First off, the rules say absolutely nothing about trains or rail cars. And as someone who worked with railroads for several years, I can assure you that putting coal and iron ore into passenger train cars doesn't work very well. Oil would be even messier.[8|]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
First off, the rules say absolutely nothing about trains or rail cars. And as someone who worked with railroads for several years, I can assure you that putting coal and iron ore into passenger train cars doesn't work very well. Oil would be even messier.

WHAT[&:] Now a rail move is not a rail move [&:]

The rules being discussed are "Railway supply paths", "11.10 Rail movement", and "Transporting resources by rail".

So in your experience with railroads:
There are an infinite number of railroad crews for the engines and trains.
Railroad engines are unable to uncouple railcars and re-couple to a different type of railcars.
Railroad tracks (rail lines) can only support one type of cargo.

It must have been a plush railroad company you worked for that could do that on Hawaii here on the mainland none of this is true.

There aren't an infinite number of railroad crews for the engines and trains.
Railroad engines are able to uncouple railcars and re-couple to a different type of railcars.
Railroad tracks (rail lines) can support more than one type of cargo.

I have said nothing about railcars but I have been discussing rail lines.

x

Here is what I understand from you all:

"Railway supply paths" can pass through an enemy ZOC if a friendly unit is present.

While "11.10 Rail movement" (of units) and "Transporting resources by rail" have to stop after entering or leaving one enemy ZOC that has a frindly unit in the hex.



Now is that what you mean or is it wrong [&:]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Here is what I understand from you all:

"Railway supply paths" can pass through an enemy ZOC if a friendly unit is present.

Right!

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
While "11.10 Rail movement" (of units) and "Transporting resources by rail" have to stop after entering or leaving one enemy ZOC that has a frindly unit in the hex.

Wrong! If you enter an enemy ZOC during these phases you have to stop.
You are however allowed to leave an enemy ZOC, if you start in the hex itself.
Both are only allowed if there is a friendly land unit in the hex.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
First off, the rules say absolutely nothing about trains or rail cars. And as someone who worked with railroads for several years, I can assure you that putting coal and iron ore into passenger train cars doesn't work very well. Oil would be even messier.

WHAT[&:] Now a rail move is not a rail move [&:]

The rules being discussed are "Railway supply paths", "11.10 Rail movement", and "Transporting resources by rail".

So in your experience with railroads:
There are an infinite number of railroad crews for the engines and trains.
Railroad engines are unable to uncouple railcars and re-couple to a different type of railcars.
Railroad tracks (rail lines) can only support one type of cargo.

It must have been a plush railroad company you worked for that could do that on Hawaii here on the mainland none of this is true.

There aren't an infinite number of railroad crews for the engines and trains.
Railroad engines are able to uncouple railcars and re-couple to a different type of railcars.
Railroad tracks (rail lines) can support more than one type of cargo.

I have said nothing about railcars but I have been discussing rail lines.

I say almost nothing about naval operations, because I have no experience with them.

But when it comes to railroads, I have a better understanding than most laymen.

The locomotives for passenger trains are often times different than those used for hauling freight. Freight trains haul much heavier loads and go much slower. And the track beds for passenger trains are often separate from the track beds for freight trains. The former run at higher speeds so when going around curves the cant of the track is different. Freight rail beds take much harder punishment given the weight of the cargo. There are also differences in the signalling system having to do with the braking distance for the different trains. I can't go into all the differences here about railroad signalling systems but I wrote a program in the 1970's to simulate the different proposed designs for the northeast corridor (Washington D. C. to Boston). There are a lot of variables involved.

So yes, rail moves are not universally the same. When I was working on the NE corridor project, the trains going into New Haven from the south used AC power, and those above that were diesel (or maybe they were running on DC power?). Either way, the locomotives had to be changed at New Haven.

You would really not like riding in a passenger train that was using the freight rail bed. Coal never complains but human passengers tend to not like being thrown up and down and left and right continuously.

You should accept that fact that WIF handles rail movement as an abstraction. In fact it has 3 different abstractions for simulating the movement of supplies, troops, and raw materials.

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An even more glaring weakness in the game's simulation of the real world is the definition of minor and major ports. Historically many of them were dedicated to either military or commercial vessels. In WIF all ports can be used for either purpose.

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In summation (I hope), the rules are the rules. To try to finesse a deeper understanding of them by comparing them to the real world either does not work at all, or entails a lot of effort for very little - if any - gain.