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Saying that not building aircraft factories saves you supply and this is good for the endgame end-of-story is a gross simplification.

A lot of supply can be wasted with Allied ground bombing, which tends to hit occupied (and supplied) bases. More fighters = less bombing. Total effect = not clear, it depends. Not to mention other war effort that can benefit from aircraft and lose supply otherwise

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Saying that not building aircraft factories saves you supply and this is good for the endgame end-of-story is a gross simplification.

A lot of supply can be wasted with Allied ground bombing, which tends to hit occupied (and supplied) bases. More fighters = less bombing. Total effect = not clear, it depends. Not to mention other war effort that can benefit from aircraft and lose supply otherwise

Absolutely, I'm simplifying as are you.

Of course it isn't just the building of the AC factories, it is also the building and fielding those AC. The IJ economy cannot support those 2500 Tojo factories building 2500 Tojos/month in 42/43 into groups and flying. It causes you to burn too much supply in 42/43 that you need to be saving for later. Now, if you are going to AV, go for it. I've already expressed my views, but I don't impose my views on other players.

As stated above, what is the right number? And as you say: "it depends". However, the caution against overbuilding still stands. I'm not speaking to you or Loka, you guys have been around here a while and have your opinions. Good. No interest in changing your opinion. I'm mentioning it to the newb's that just showed up.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna



You said most economies implode, not "Japan loses." I submit that "most economies implode" or flame out early (prior to 1945) is a forum narrative cooked up and propagated as gospel without any real evidence. On the contrary, the AARs I read or have read, show that most Japanese economies do not implode or flame out prior to the endgame.

Your reading and mine do not correlate. Simple.

So, examples?

I mean, Lowpe took over an awful situation and didn't run out of supplies. Obvert did once (I think). We had a report of a newer player who ran 2-day turns running out of supplies the other week.

I'm not going to run out of supplies. My complete game opponent didn't run out of supplies. I am not sure if my other opponent is going to run out of supplies. I don't think nygiants is blowing up his economy. Not to mention all the other concluded or disappeared AARs. So where are all the imploded economies?

I've had one game go to the end. Small sample size, but in that one supply was a big issue at the end. It wasn't due to major over-building of AC factories. There was some inefficiency there. It wasn't just any other factor. It was many together.

I overbuilt base infrastructure. I built too many fortifications. I lost a good chuck of units in encirclement and paid to get them back. I expanded air groups and flew them, lost them replaced them. My opponent systematically destroyed any and all industrial centres from mid-44 onward.

The point is I wasn't aware I'd need to be careful about supply. The main discussion at the time was to bank HI to survive after in 45 after industry was gone. Had that, but supply was scarce after a few months of 45 and big manpower raids. No matter what supply you've stored, if all industry is destroyed and supply is also reduced through Allied fields and port strikes, yo\ll still be in trouble. Maybe have a non-industrial/non-strategic target as a supply dump?! [:)]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Saying that not building aircraft factories saves you supply and this is good for the endgame end-of-story is a gross simplification.

A lot of supply can be wasted with Allied ground bombing, which tends to hit occupied (and supplied) bases. More fighters = less bombing. Total effect = not clear, it depends. Not to mention other war effort that can benefit from aircraft and lose supply otherwise

Absolutely, I'm simplifying as are you.

Of course it isn't just the building of the AC factories, it is also the building and fielding those AC. The IJ economy cannot support those 2500 Tojo factories building 2500 Tojos/month in 42/43 into groups and flying. It causes you to burn too much supply in 42/43 that you need to be saving for later. Now, if you are going to AV, go for it. I've already expressed my views, but I don't impose my views on other players.

As stated above, what is the right number? And as you say: "it depends". However, the caution against overbuilding still stands. I'm not speaking to you or Loka, you guys have been around here a while and have your opinions. Good. No interest in changing your opinion. I'm mentioning it to the newb's that just showed up.

Never seen 2,500 Tojo factories. Wouldn't know what to do with them all anyway! [:D]

Players seem somewhat prudent these days, at least those on the forums who are vocal.

One of the best players of the IJ side in terms of holding back the Allied advance has been PzB. He famously ran out of supply against Andy Mac in mid-44. He played well tactically and strategically, but maybe not economically. [;)]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Saying that not building aircraft factories saves you supply and this is good for the endgame end-of-story is a gross simplification.

A lot of supply can be wasted with Allied ground bombing, which tends to hit occupied (and supplied) bases. More fighters = less bombing. Total effect = not clear, it depends. Not to mention other war effort that can benefit from aircraft and lose supply otherwise

Absolutely, I'm simplifying as are you.

Of course it isn't just the building of the AC factories, it is also the building and fielding those AC. The IJ economy cannot support those 2500 Tojo factories building 2500 Tojos/month in 42/43 into groups and flying. It causes you to burn too much supply in 42/43 that you need to be saving for later. Now, if you are going to AV, go for it. I've already expressed my views, but I don't impose my views on other players.

As stated above, what is the right number? And as you say: "it depends". However, the caution against overbuilding still stands. I'm not speaking to you or Loka, you guys have been around here a while and have your opinions. Good. No interest in changing your opinion. I'm mentioning it to the newb's that just showed up.

Never seen 2,500 Tojo factories. Wouldn't know what to do with them all anyway! [:D]

Players seem somewhat prudent these days, at least those on the forums who are vocal.

One of the best players of the IJ side in terms of holding back the Allied advance has been PzB. He famously ran out of supply against Andy Mac in mid-44. He played well tactically and strategically, but maybe not economically. [;)]

PzB ran out of supply due to a code glitch. Michael even added some supply back into their game at least once while they were debugging that issue.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



Absolutely, I'm simplifying as are you.

Of course it isn't just the building of the AC factories, it is also the building and fielding those AC. The IJ economy cannot support those 2500 Tojo factories building 2500 Tojos/month in 42/43 into groups and flying. It causes you to burn too much supply in 42/43 that you need to be saving for later. Now, if you are going to AV, go for it. I've already expressed my views, but I don't impose my views on other players.

As stated above, what is the right number? And as you say: "it depends". However, the caution against overbuilding still stands. I'm not speaking to you or Loka, you guys have been around here a while and have your opinions. Good. No interest in changing your opinion. I'm mentioning it to the newb's that just showed up.

Never seen 2,500 Tojo factories. Wouldn't know what to do with them all anyway! [:D]

Players seem somewhat prudent these days, at least those on the forums who are vocal.

One of the best players of the IJ side in terms of holding back the Allied advance has been PzB. He famously ran out of supply against Andy Mac in mid-44. He played well tactically and strategically, but maybe not economically. [;)]

PzB ran out of supply due to a code glitch. Michael even added some supply back into their game at least once while they were debugging that issue.

A code glitch? What code glitch?

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert




Never seen 2,500 Tojo factories. Wouldn't know what to do with them all anyway! [:D]

Players seem somewhat prudent these days, at least those on the forums who are vocal.

One of the best players of the IJ side in terms of holding back the Allied advance has been PzB. He famously ran out of supply against Andy Mac in mid-44. He played well tactically and strategically, but maybe not economically. [;)]

PzB ran out of supply due to a code glitch. Michael even added some supply back into their game at least once while they were debugging that issue.

A code glitch? What code glitch?

That AAR was one of the first after one of the early updates. There were several large changes done (IIRC it was the update that nerfed the arty and drove the arty PP's through the roof), and there were several unintended consequences. one of which was certain units were burning something like 10x the supply they should have. Took a while to find it, and then fix it. In the meantime, that AAR just kept going like several months of game time. Anyway, PzB was running outta supply when he shouldn't have. It was their AAR that actually found the issue and Michael was able to confirm it with help from Andy. Remember, Andy was the opponent. Anyway, they added supply into the game at least once, I think actually 3 times.

Eventually the AAR ended for several reasons. Anyway, it was also this AAR that discovered that the IJ could NOT hold any island against the allies. PZB had built Christmas Island into a lvl9 fortress, a lot of forces, and the allies took it easily. This was also the AAR that showed the best defense was reaction forces to come in AFTER the Deathstar has to leave to rearm and take the island/base back. PZB did that repeatedly and was able to stall the allied advance. Nemo adopted the same defense tactic and improved upon it.

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: Anachro

What do you mean by "wire chart for A/C development?"

rustysi can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he refers to the following practice in Japanese research:

You can dramatically accelerate the arrival of some late models of some air frames very easily. Example:
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV
h. Etc.

Good God, holy crap, wow wow wow.

I am such a noob.

Basically Japanese player can fly aircraft from 1945 in 1942.

This is.... this is Warthunder matchmaking nonsense... in a strategic hex wargame! Arrgh! [:@]

Insectoid exploitation.... [:(]

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: Anachro

What do you mean by "wire chart for A/C development?"

rustysi can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he refers to the following practice in Japanese research:

You can dramatically accelerate the arrival of some late models of some air frames very easily. Example:
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV
h. Etc.

Good God, holy crap, wow wow wow.

I am such a noob.

Basically Japanese player can fly aircraft from 1945 in 1942.

This is.... this is Warthunder matchmaking nonsense... in a strategic hex wargame! Arrgh! [:@]

It's really not that bad, and I'm not sure they're actually 1945 aircraft. In 1943 you can have the "1945 aircraft", sure, but they're just the upgraded versions of the 1942 planes (with the exception of the Ki-100 if that's a 1945 plane) - not actually a new generation of plane. Incremental improvements. It's really not a big deal.

One of the problems we were unable to decide on due to lack of late war game data was oil. I built the oil system so the correct amount of barrels were being produced everywhere as of November '41.
Then I lowered the obvious bases Japan takes early and the oil resources they start with by about 10% to account for training squadrons and working up new ships.

This is still too much oil with the way the game seems to go though. In '41 the Dutch East Indies produced 65,000,000 barrels of oil (42 gallons to a barrel, about half a barrel is naval fuel) but in the war the Japanese maxed out at about 20,000,000 barrels from the DEI.
20,000,000 Brls was not enough by Japan's own prewar calculations to keep their economy going and their prewar calcs projected using 18000000Brls in '41-'42 when they actually used 30,000,000brls for military activities.

So, we were tempted to artificially lower DEI's oil production to represent this because demolition is never enough, and the Japanese (and Allied) players know Palembang is the most important objective.
At that point I went on to other things and Don and Joe built AE. It seems they went for play balance so Japanese players might be findable, but Japan does have way too much oil in AE.

And this is not an attack on Don & Joe as I understand why they made their choice, building games is always guaranteed to piss off half of your fan base no matter what you do.

To be more realistic though, Japan should get less oil from the Indies.

It's really not that bad, and I'm not sure they're actually 1945 aircraft. In 1943 you can have the "1945 aircraft", sure, but they're just the upgraded versions of the 1942 planes (with the exception of the Ki-100 if that's a 1945 plane) - not actually a new generation of plane. Incremental improvements. It's really not a big deal.

While the above is true, the problem, as I see it, comes from the release of all these R&D factories to then be put to the development of 'true 1945' A/C that much earlier. Not that they'll all 'repair up' any faster, but if you have 10-20 factories repaired to 30 at any point you can advance anything at an amazing rate, especially with the engine bonus.

(with the exception of the Ki-100 if that's a 1945 plane)

I'm not 100% sure, and I will check, but IIRC this A/C's 'wire chart' does stem from the Ki-61. Which means you may get it PDQ if you skip the development line.

Ki100 is up fromthe Ki61, so you can get it pretty early. As someone above noted though, most of the IJ '45 aircraft are just incremental improvements on 1941 designs. There are some nice designs, but compared to the allied planes they have much high SR, and generally lousy armaments. A couple of exceptions, but they are exceptions.

EX: J7W - IF (big word), it had Ho-5 20mm cannons, this would be a terror. It doesn't and so not nearly as strong as it might be. Compared to P51H: on par speed, lower climb, lower manouver, far less range and far higher SR. Having said all of that, it is still one of the best aircraft the IJ gets, and no, it really is not competitive to the P51H ....

So, saying IJ can get late war aircraft is true ... but how much does that distort things? We have not seen much impact of aircraft in AAR's to date. Economy (supply generally) has far bigger impact. Strategy and tactics also has proven to be far more important.

So, a lot of attention is being paid to an aspect that has little effect on the outcomes. [;)]

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

rustysi can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he refers to the following practice in Japanese research:

You can dramatically accelerate the arrival of some late models of some air frames very easily. Example:
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV
h. Etc.

Doing it that way goes against the grain. I personally will only research the planes in order. You can still get them quickly.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ki100 is up fromthe Ki61, so you can get it pretty early. As someone above noted though, most of the IJ '45 aircraft are just incremental improvements on 1941 designs. There are some nice designs, but compared to the allied planes they have much high SR, and generally lousy armaments. A couple of exceptions, but they are exceptions.

EX: J7W - IF (big word), it had Ho-5 20mm cannons, this would be a terror. It doesn't and so not nearly as strong as it might be. Compared to P51H: on par speed, lower climb, lower manouver, far less range and far higher SR. Having said all of that, it is still one of the best aircraft the IJ gets, and no, it really is not competitive to the P51H ....

So, saying IJ can get late war aircraft is true ... but how much does that distort things? We have not seen much impact of aircraft in AAR's to date. Economy (supply generally) has far bigger impact. Strategy and tactics also has proven to be far more important.

So, a lot of attention is being paid to an aspect that has little effect on the outcomes. [;)]

I don't find that the "wonder planes" make much difference against the 1944 and 1945 Allied OOB. It's possible that pilot quality was affecting things. If pilot quality was less in the favor of the top models of the Allied planes, things might have been different.

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

rustysi can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he refers to the following practice in Japanese research:

You can dramatically accelerate the arrival of some late models of some air frames very easily. Example:
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV
h. Etc.

Doing it that way goes against the grain. I personally will only research the planes in order. You can still get them quickly.

Exactly how it can go. I prefer to research in order as well. As I say though, to each their own. All I ever ask is for an opponent to inform me of what they will do so I can see if we match up. Of course the reverse is true as well.

To paraphrase Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own." Yes, the latest fast-tracked Japanese planes may not match up stat vs. stat to the 1945 Allied planes. But by the time the Allies can approach the volumes of the 'pretty good, but not great' fast-tracked Japanese planes, it *can* make a significant difference in the outcome. Getting 200-300 monthly Frank-b and -r aircraft a year before the Allies get the 1945 shiznit can help even things out. One of the major determinants of any air combat is numbers of planes on either side. Having superior margins (e.g., 2:1 ratio IJAAF: USAAF) can help to offset some of the materiale superiority in the late Allied airframes.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ki100 is up fromthe Ki61, so you can get it pretty early. As someone above noted though, most of the IJ '45 aircraft are just incremental improvements on 1941 designs. There are some nice designs, but compared to the allied planes they have much high SR, and generally lousy armaments. A couple of exceptions, but they are exceptions.

EX: J7W - IF (big word), it had Ho-5 20mm cannons, this would be a terror. It doesn't and so not nearly as strong as it might be. Compared to P51H: on par speed, lower climb, lower manouver, far less range and far higher SR. Having said all of that, it is still one of the best aircraft the IJ gets, and no, it really is not competitive to the P51H ....

So, saying IJ can get late war aircraft is true ... but how much does that distort things? We have not seen much impact of aircraft in AAR's to date. Economy (supply generally) has far bigger impact. Strategy and tactics also has proven to be far more important.

So, a lot of attention is being paid to an aspect that has little effect on the outcomes. [;)]

I don't find that the "wonder planes" make much difference against the 1944 and 1945 Allied OOB. It's possible that pilot quality was affecting things. If pilot quality was less in the favor of the top models of the Allied planes, things might have been different.

Exactly. The 'wonder' planes are FAR better than 1941 models, but compared to the allies, they barely make the scratch.