Rematch: Ragnarök - mind_messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

On another note, I've decided on keeping a production line of G3M3 Nells going for the entire war. The phenominal range, combined with radar that becomes active on 6/44 will make them well-suited to being the core IJN night bomber. The Frances and Betty are better airframes but range-limited.

Completely agree. G3M3 is one of the best IJ LB's

[Mike Solli]

So, what are your collective thoughts on the Betty?

[Lowpe]

I am not sure that MAD does a lot; but it certainly helps.

I like the B5N2 with radar and mad as a primary ASW killer plane in the late game. It is usually very easy to have a few posted and relocate to hotspots.

In one game, I put the entire Betty armada (close to 400 planes with radar, armor, and 20mm guns) on night attack against a Honshu invasion. They suffered over 30% losses to flak and scored not a single hit, with a large percentage grounded due to damage.

I have also tried to find a use for the Nick in the anti-shipping role, and found perhaps it is a solid kamikaze choice, but I have come to the conclusion that the Army FBs' are best used to beef up bombing defense and perhaps in the ground attack role on carefully selected Allied units. Pure fighters, single engine, make better low attack naval planes, as they attack a higher percentage of small targets reliably.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, what are your collective thoughts on the Betty?

I'm currently building both the Nell and Betty. Once the P1Y2 comes online all the Betty production will go over to the Frances. I'll probably skip the Y1 Frances as it's SR 4 and a pain to use as a result.

The slow speed of the Betty is the killer. The Y2 Frances is more or less equal to the Betty but 30mph faster. It won't outrun many fighters but every little helps.

I'll likely use the excess G4M1 airframes as late-war kamis as in general twin engine planes tend to do better getting through CAP.

I will however build a small run of the G4M2e model to take advantage of the Ohka production run starting in 10/44. I've never had any success with them, but the missile strikes avoid CAP so it's ideal for night attacks with little to no chances of losses.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure that MAD does a lot; but it certainly helps.

I like the B5N2 with radar and mad as a primary ASW killer plane in the late game. It is usually very easy to have a few posted and relocate to hotspots.

In one game, I put the entire Betty armada (close to 400 planes with radar, armor, and 20mm guns) on night attack against a Honshu invasion. They suffered over 30% losses to flak and scored not a single hit, with a large percentage grounded due to damage.

I have also tried to find a use for the Nick in the anti-shipping role, and found perhaps it is a solid kamikaze choice, but I have come to the conclusion that the Army FBs' are best used to beef up bombing defense and perhaps in the ground attack role on carefully selected Allied units. Pure fighters, single engine, make better low attack naval planes, as they attack a higher percentage of small targets reliably.

Funny, I'd noted that the B5N2 gets both radar and MAD.

AFAIK it's the only the Q1W1 Lorna and the B5N2 that get both a radar and MAD. I don't plan to build the Lorna, but I'm definitely using the excess B5N2 in the ASW role for the late game.

Regarding the Nick in anti-shipping, I want it there as an "in a pinch" option. While I'm with you on the fact that their prime role is killing 4E's, the Nick has by far the best payload of any of the fighter-bombers with 2x250kg bombs. The Zero only slings one (and it's madness using zero's as FB's anyway, the Ki-119 and Ki-93-Ib arrive so late as to be useless and the Randy FB isn't enough of an improvement as to be worthwhile.

It's just a general reflection of my VP-focused approach to the game now, to be honest. Three Allied devices need to be destroyed for each Nick shot down doing a ground attack mission. In comparison, a random Allied xAK type ship goes for around 5-10 VP's and a 250kg bomb or two generally tends to be fatal. Ships are easier VP's.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Ships are easier VP's.

Don't disagree, but a massed strafing attack can stop those pesky Allied Armor only advances. Plus give you a juicy LRCAP to target for sweeps.

I am going to experiment with the Randy FB to find out if it is worth it.

Hate to say it, but the Lilly DB is the best anti-shipping platform the IJA has until Peggy T.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Ships are easier VP's.

Don't disagree, but a massed strafing attack can stop those pesky Allied Armor only advances. Plus give you a juicy LRCAP to target for sweeps.

I am going to experiment with the Randy FB to find out if it is worth it.

Hate to say it, but the Lilly DB is the best anti-shipping platform the IJA has until Peggy T.

Yup, with you on that one. My main rationale behind the Nick in an anti-shipping role is to try and further distribute the load of anti-shipping duties across branches and airframes.

My thinking is that F/FB pilots will need to train LowNav anyways for Def skill (and eventually kami attacks), so may as well try to put those secondary skills to use in the meantime even if the airframes are sub-optimal.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, what are your collective thoughts on the Betty?

Me? I build some G4M's early on until I have enough G3M capacity, but I rarely ever expand.
The problem with all of the IJN LB's is their tiny bombload. So, they are just torpedo bombers.
P1Y - 11 hex
G4M - 17 hex w/armor 12 hex
B7A - 10 hex
There you are ... I prefer the B7a as the best TB ... P1Y ain't bad, but for only one more hex range ....

That's just me.

G3M with its range is the night bomber ... 21hex with 3x250 or 26hex with 2x250. 26 is a big deal.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

So, what are your collective thoughts on the Betty?

Me? I build some G4M's early on until I have enough G3M capacity, but I rarely ever expand.
The problem with all of the IJN LB's is their tiny bombload. So, they are just torpedo bombers.
P1Y - 11 hex
G4M - 17 hex w/armor 12 hex
B7A - 10 hex
There you are ... I prefer the B7a as the best TB ... P1Y ain't bad, but for only one more hex range ....

That's just me.

G3M with its range is the night bomber ... 21hex with 3x250 or 26hex with 2x250. 26 is a big deal.

Yeah, I'm like you, they either carry torps or they don't fly at all. Not worth it otherwise, which pretty much makes the anaemic bomb payload a non-issue for me.

I'm sure the Frances can carry drop tanks and a torpedo? That gives you torps out to 15 hexes on the Y1 and 13 hexes on the Y2. The Grace can do 10, which is solid.

I find the extra hexes tend to matter a lot, as that's in the territory of the max movement of even the fastest ships in a given naval movement phase. Being able to attack ingressing and egressing ships makes all the difference for Japan in most situations and can give you a real defense in-depth.

The M3 Nell lugs a torp out to 21 hexes. You just can't beat that kind of range. It may be a slow deathtrap, but it's got range.

[Mike Solli]

Lots of great info! Where's the popcorn!

[Lowpe]

I use Nells on deep strikes if I can find a lightly defended base...got keep those Allied fighters dispersed.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I'm sure the Frances can carry drop tanks and a torpedo? That gives you torps out to 15 hexes on the Y1 and 13 hexes on the Y2. The Grace can do 10, which is solid.

I find the extra hexes tend to matter a lot, as that's in the territory of the max movement of even the fastest ships in a given naval movement phase. Being able to attack ingressing and egressing ships makes all the difference for Japan in most situations and can give you a real defense in-depth.

You are correct, my bad memory. I knew there was another reason I built P1Y.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The M3 Nell lugs a torp out to 21 hexes. You just can't beat that kind of range. It may be a slow deathtrap, but it's got range.

With good pilots at night, they are holy terror on NavAttack. Either they get through OR they force the DeathStar to put some of their fighters on night CAP ... makes the day strikes that much more likely to get through ... and the G3M's are not taking space in the nearby AF's ...

[Mike Solli]

Interesting, guys. What kind of pilot stats are needed to get planes to regularly fly night missions?

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting, guys. What kind of pilot stats are needed to get planes to regularly fly night missions?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR7CeC-rqiE

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


With good pilots at night, they are holy terror on NavAttack. Either they get through OR they force the DeathStar to put some of their fighters on night CAP

Color me highly skeptical![&:] Show me in an AAR where Nells have successfully attacked the Deathstar past 1942 at night or even during the daylight.

All it takes for the Allies to protect the KB, is one night fighting squadron out of what 1,000 fighters. Or 1 squadron per Task Force. Allied AA will handle the rest.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


With good pilots at night, they are holy terror on NavAttack. Either they get through OR they force the DeathStar to put some of their fighters on night CAP

Color me highly skeptical![&:] Show me in an AAR where Nells have successfully attacked the Deathstar past 1942 at night or even during the daylight.

All it takes for the Allies to protect the KB, is one night fighting squadron out of what 1,000 fighters. Or 1 squadron per Task Force. Allied AA will handle the rest.

Hopefully I'll be able to provide one!

In my view, it's all about adding up marginal advantages. Night naval attacks feed in to that.

Adding night CAP to CV fleets requires clicks, adding to click/turn fatigue.

Night naval attacks that break through CAP cause defending ships to use AA ammo, which can be critical in more extended battles. An Allied CV with no ammo in the DP or Bofors guns is severely neutered, and given how the night combat routine breaks night strikes up into small packages, it's likely going to be much higher usage at night than during the day.

Night CAP forces a drawdown of daytime CAP until the dedicated night fighter squadrons come along, and even then it's possible to break through.

All this is without actually landing a torpedo or a bomb on target.

I envison it as feeding into a wider strategy with night time attacks by IJN twin-engines doing thier best to waste Allied AA ammo and maybe get a lucky hit or two in a contested region.

[Lowpe]

I hope you can![:)]

I think the one of the best uses of night naval attack is against bombarding enemy ships...or perhaps CVEs in an invasion hex....just not the deathstar.

In any case, you don't need the very fragile Nell to pull those off. I can't imagine a 15+ hex night naval strike.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I can't imagine a 15+ hex night naval strike.

I have not been able to that against a large CV force, but 12-15 hexes? Yes.

As MM notes, its just one more picking at the force … using up AA, causing reaction, etc.

[mind_messing]

USN CV Fleet

Real life has intervened for both Loka and I and the game has lagged a fair bit. It's been good though as I've felt pushed for time recently, but thinks seem to be getting better. Loka is out of town for a few days so I'm taking the chance to do a comprehensive review of both games.

My immediate concern is the Allied carrier force. They've not had much luck this game. Tracker, in my experience, tends to be pretty accurate with predictions.

Currently it is reporting Saratoga, Yorktown and Enterprise as all sunk. Let's review the evidence.

Saratoga - torpedoed twice by I-9 at 175,95 (12 hexes north-west of Pearl Harbor) on 3/2/1942. No damage reported in the CR. Reported sunk at 197,96 (4 hexes away) on 4/2/1942.

Enterprise - attacked off Java in a carrier action on 09/2/1942 at hex 56,112. Hit by three torpedoes, showed fire & heavy damage. Reported scuttled in the same hex a day later.

Yorktown - Attacked on 31/3/1942 at hex 181,116 (9 hexes from Pearl Harbor). Hit by one torpedo by I-4, fuel storage explosion repoted. Immediately attacked again by I-4, but no further hits and no damage visible. Reported sunk in the same hex on the same day.

Going from guesswork and experience, the Enterprise is gone for sure, scuttled to deny my chasing ships the chance to collect full VP's on a forlorn ship.

The Saratoga is a maybe. It's a tough ship, but the two torps, plus the location, plus the fact that it's been on the sunk list for nearly three months makes me think it's gone.

Yorktown is likely still afloat, and might be out of the yards. If it was damaged, I-4 would almost certainly have seen damage on the second attack, and been able to hit if the damage was serious.

Current Forces

Recent developments in SWPAC leads me to think that the RN and USN carriers are working in co-ordination. Assuming Saratoga and Yorktown are still in the yards (likely given the nature of the damage and their high durability) or sunk (yeah, I wish), this gives the Allies the following ships for operations:

CVL Hermes (20 planes)
CV Hornet (90 planes)
CV Indomitable (45 planes)
CV Formidable (33 planes)
CV Illustrious (33 planes)

This is bolstered by the CVE Long Island and CV Wasp that are due to arrive in the next two months.

The end conclusion is that even in the long shot that both the Yorktown and Saratoga are sunk, there's sufficent Allied flight decks in operation to keep the KB combined. Currently the IJN has carrier superiority, with the potential return of the Yorktown and Saratoga to service likely bringing this to carrier parity for late 1942. However, I'm not sure of the withdrawal dates on the Royal Navy carriers, so there's the potential for the IJN to have a strong edge going in to mid-1943.

However, Japanese carrier strategy will be to hold the KB in reserve until Allied flight decks are spotted supporting amphib operations through to early 1943, up to which point I'll seek a carrier battle.

[mind_messing]

May 9th to May 15th, 1942

Lots of housekeeping this turn.

Home Islands

I've gutted the small ports around Japan for any idle ships and sent them to where they'll be more useful.

I've also neglected to drop mines at Tsushima, that's now done, and there's a gaggle of ACM to tend them as well.

Jake production has been increased by 30 to 90 factories, and the engines expanded accordingly. I'm really feeling the crunch in regards to naval search assets, and I want it sorted before the year is out.

The deployment of flak units in Japan needs rationalised, but I'm putting that off. There are notes somewhere of what I did in my last AAR with the starting flak units that I'll dig up. Based on my experience, I'm going to try and get solid barrage balloons over every major Japanese industry sites and just ram as much heavy AA in as I can. I'm not sure what I'll do with all the dinky 20mm and 25mm AA guns that arrive, but I'll think of something.

Burma

The stalemate should be broken here in a few days, if all goes well. 1.1k IJ AV is halfway to Pegu, while IJA troops in Pegu itself have been trading well in several bombardment attacks with the Chinese defenders.

Air strikes continue to take a heavy toll as well.

Rangoon concerns me, as there are 11 Allied units in the base and they've had since December to dig in. I think I'll focus on isolating Rangoon and capturing the rest of Burma before turning to Rangoon.

I abort my Tokyo Express on Pegu after spotting 8 Allied submarines in the Pegu hex. I don't want my slow battleships to wander into a crossfire, so they're returning to Singapore. I've detached 12 Fubuki (I) destroyers in 3 ASW TF's to clear the way, and moved in air assets to spot and hopefully sink some subs.

DEI

Lots of housekeeping at Singapore, where I've reduced the number of docked ships from about 400 down to 150 or so. Most of the departing ships are headed to Java to form resource convoys, with the remainder being sent to various DEI bases to help move war material back to Japan. Every convoy is reasonably escorted by at least two PB's, with the bigger convoys having three or four. That should at least keep USN subs from making surface attacks.

I've also started engaging in mine warfare in this theatre. In a week or so, the strait between Java and Sumatra will be closed. I already have some PB's picketing the strait, but the mines will help lock it down. The other big bases in the region will also get mines in due course, with priority going to the bases along the Malaccan strait.

Engineers at Tarakan are shifting to Oosthaven. I want to develop Oosthaven's port in order to run fuel from Oosthaven to Batavia. Java's refineries are all rubble, along with most of the oil. While I'll repair the oil, I want to keep a solid bank of fuel on Java for fleet useage. Once the Std-C TK conversions happen later this year, I'll set up a modest convoy to run fuel from Java back to Japan.

Luzon

Their bid to recapture Manila having failed, the Allied units on Luzon appear to be running back to Bataan. The IJA will counter-attack in a few days once the final units are in position.

China

Nothing to report here. Shifting more units around to try and break the stalemate, but no luck so far. The dance of units outside Chungking still continues.

The 60th Division is relocating from this theatre to the South-West Pacific.

North Pacific

A lone Allied sub is up here, dodging some twenty or so IJA Sallies flying ASW missions and keeping well clear of the six subchasers trying to sink it...

Central Pacific

At long last, I've gotten some Jakes out here. The squadrons are pitifully understrength, with most at about two to five planes. The pilots are also pitifully underqualified. However, I expect to remedy both in time. For the moment, they're out where they can do some good, even if they're not at maximum effectiveness.

There's a big batch of reinforcements sitting in Tokyo that I'm getting ready to shift out here, so I'll need to decide what I'm doing with this theatre. Based on last game, I'll likely invest much less into LCU's and more into airbase capability.

South-West Pacific

KB is 9 hexes NW of Ndeni, and still undetected.

Recon reports Allied fighters on Norfolk Island. 40 Zeros from Noumea will hopefully sweep them away and let Nells close the airbase. I may attempt a paratrooper assault on this island in the near future.

Two Allied TF's are spotted off Tongatapu in (no suprise) the Tonga islands. Recon reports no fighters at the base, so Nells have taken up residence at Nadi and will hopefully sortie. Subs are also on route.

A third Allied TF has been spotted far east of Pago Pago, comprising large warships. Mavis from Canton Island will keep a close watch on their movements.

The cruiser Dorsetshire is reported sunk by collision in SWPAC, tracker says it's sunk. I'm not convinced.

Luganville port and airbase is nearly at level 2, and the first wave of auxiluary warships is a day out. The IJN's forward fleet base will shortly be operational!

[Bif1961]

I believe one of the British fleet carriers leaves soon, not sure which but that should help the Japanese odds a little.