Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I wouldn't mind testing this as the German. While in my test game I took Paris, what I can't be sure of is whether the German suffered to much damage to be able to take on Russia. Also, whether they had the strength and time to take Egypt. The victory in France could easily be the place where the German Army is crippled. Might end up a short game.

If the Germans did not lose any units then you should be good...
The issue is lost units.
In our testing 3 to 6 corps are lost...and usually 1 or 2 are armor. That ends the game.

If you are losing German Armor units, then you must be putting them in areas where they can be attacked from multiple directions and/or have no valid retreat path. Generally I end my turns with the armor behind an infantry line or has a river in front of it or some other defensive boost. If the allies try to go on the offensive against such a line they will weaken their units so much that the counter attack will be a cake walk. Also I feed my armor a steady diet of Supply Trucks to offset the degradation movement and combat cause.

However, this is hard to confirm by hotseat since I just may not be using the right tactics for the Allies in France.

But this still means it takes through July to get Paris and the Germans will have a large production point cost to return all their units to full strength. Especially if the Allies push their Air campaign sense it seems to soak up a lot of replacement costs.

What I can't easily test with hot seat is which side came out on the short end of the stick. The Allies get to trade French for Germans which cost them nothing in the long term. But if the German's get a hold of the UK units they can do a lot of damage that the UK can't replace as quick as the Germans.

So the question is: If the German's take Paris by August how does that effect the game in the long term?
Can the UK defend Egypt?
Can the Germans and Italians take Egypt before the British can reinforce it?
Can the Germans support a Mediterranean plan and still be ready to invade Russia in 41?
Will the UK be able to survive in the Atlantic so it can lend any support to Russia?

There is also an alternate path for the Germans. A Mediterranean and Sealion path instead of invading Russia in 41.
In this they would take all of the Mediterranean including Gibraltar. This would allow them to use Italian troops to garrison France.
Against England do a mini-Sealion. Just take the cities and ports that don't trigger US bonuses. Just run around playing hell with the UK economy and destroying any units that come out of the VP cities. Basically turn the UK into an Italy like ally for the US.

Here is what the Allies had available by end of May 28 turn. I didn't move the Germans since I had to go back to the 5/10 save, just moved the allies. During this time the German's took the Netherlands and Belgium but weren't ready to attack France in strength until the June turn.

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Here is what my hot seat game looked like on May 10th. I think I moved over two more Br small Corps after this screen shot.

Only 6 UK units in France, you are far from the all-in strategy. Right now, I have 10 UK units in France.

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

After the tests carried out against Hadros, Stjeand and NCC I think the biggest problem as indicated by NCC and now Hadros is that the Corps and armored units break very easily. The casualties may be bearable for the Axis but the loss of units is irreplaceable.

Of the proposed solutions, the one I like the most is to delay Allies technology, this would force to invest in escorts without delay and would make the fall of France easier, the All-in strategy would be a suicide.

What happens when there is no all-in strategy is that the surplus troops are sent to the Middle East, this in part would also be solved.

IMHO a possible easy solution would be to not let the Allied troops upgrade until the fall of France. It's that simple, without making any more changes.

I'm also concerned about how easy it is for tanks and Corps to break now due to the latest change: ´´ Losses have also been mitigated by 10% in the latest patch. So 10% of all land combat losses are reverted to effectiveness losses.´´

Or as I said reduce the number of labs for UK and for France. Oblige them to concentrate on something at the cost of another technology. We can perfectly divide the UK labs by two and add labs to UK two turns after each country surrender (Poland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Yugoslavia, ...). Simulating scientists fleeing to UK...

So the question is: If the German's take Paris by August how does that effect the game in the long term?
Can the UK defend Egypt?
Can the Germans and Italians take Egypt before the British can reinforce it?
Can the Germans support a Mediterranean plan and still be ready to invade Russia in 41?
Will the UK be able to survive in the Atlantic so it can lend any support to Russia?

There is also an alternate path for the Germans. A Mediterranean and Sealion path instead of invading Russia in 41.
In this they would take all of the Mediterranean including Gibraltar. This would allow them to use Italian troops to garrison France.
Against England do a mini-Sealion. Just take the cities and ports that don't trigger US bonuses. Just run around playing hell with the UK economy and destroying any units that come out of the VP cities. Basically turn the UK into an Italy like ally for the US.

The UK has no issues in Africa from what I can see. I usually have 3 to 4 corps down there before the Germans take Paris. They can be small corps because the Italians can't do much without the Germans.
And the supply issues for the Axis means they have to take Alexandria or they can't fight there.

The only time I can ever do okay in Africa is if the Allies forget Syria...which is rare.
I did it once...and won't again.

Sealion has a shot...but again most of the UK units get out and go to Africa or to the UK and some are usually guarding ports and can get back to assist quickly. Not sure the Germans have the economy to try both but could be tried.
So there might be 10 corps in France...lets say 8 get out...4 go back to the UK...and 4 go to Africa. Yes they are damaged and their effectiveness is way down...but then so is the Germans when they send armor to Africa.

But these have been my experiences.

ORIGINAL: stjeand

The only time I can ever do okay in Africa is if the Allies forget Syria...which is rare.
I did it once...and won't again.

[:D] Same here

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Or as I said reduce the number of labs for UK and for France. Oblige them to concentrate on something at the cost of another technology. We can perfectly divide the UK labs by two and add labs to UK two turns after each country surrender

I think it is better to leave the investigation as it is, so as not to create new problems.

Maybe as a first step, only not allow to use the updates until the fall of France?
Weaker France
Weakest RAF
France falls on a historic date
Germany less casualties

But trouble, Yugoslavia and Greece will fall easy, and All-in France will move to All-In Middle East.

The more I think about it, the more difficult I see a solution that does not unbalance the game at some point in the game.

Some kind of BEF and Middle East troop limit?

I think I'll let someone smarter than me fix it (:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.

Sorry, I think you're confused (:
[/quote

I'm sure Alvaro wrote somewhere that after a shatter you get a small % of PP of those steps not already killed

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

A shatter isn't a loss. It goes to the queue.

Sorry, I think you're confused (:

I'm sure Alvaro wrote somewhere that after a shatter you get a small % of PP of those steps not already killed

Yes, but this is not the deployment queue. [:D]

All those are Large Corps. I brought over two more Small Corps leaving only divisions in UK and Middle East. Only way I can see more than the final 2 Armor, 1 Mech and six Infantry Corps (1 HQ also shipped in and 1 UK Corps is off this screen shot) would be for UK to either produce some infantry at the price of lower Production inventory to replace loses or strip UK of more divisions.

I didn't try for more infantry because I didn't see how they could contribute that much compared to keeping the two armor and one mech with supply trucks and replacements. Maybe be wrong in this but that is why it needs testing against an opponent who will probably make different decisions.

Tonight I need to have basically the GOLD version of WarPlan Pacific ready. Then I will address this issue and upload a beta scenario, possibly a game beta also sometime next week.

Some reason my screenshot didn't load on previous post. This shows what I was able to deploy to France my end of May 10. I didn't show the German moves but on May 10 they took Nederland and Belgium, so this would be what the Allies have to build a line around to receive the German attack into France.

Looks like you will lose the whole front line in T1 of attack on France because there aren't any retreat paths - unless this is just a display formation.

I didn't try to set up to do anything. Just showing the units available.

It probably is possible to get more into France if the UK is willing to risk Egypt and possibly England to do it.
France seems to be limited by logistics.

Yes France runs out of logistics...so I normally build a set or two of trucks for them to use.

I had the following:

UK forces:
France, 2 armor, 2 mech, 5 large inf corps.
Egypt, 2 large inf corps, 1 small inf corps, all ports have divisions. (One large corps to take Syria the other on the front line dug in with the small corps)
UK, 1 Large inf corp in London, 1 small inf corp and divisions in all the ports

As units get damaged they go back to the UK to heal up other than one armor and one mech that head to Egypt, maybe more depending upon the situation.

At least that is the plan.

Now could Germany invade the UK? Maybe...they could try but they have to take the French coast first. And at the moment the British navy is in the channel.

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Now could Germany invade the UK? Maybe...they could try but they have to take the French coast first. And at the moment the British navy is in the channel.

That is one of the counters. Then land an armor and roll over everything.

Well all their armor is busy in France and they need a coastal port.

Perhaps with two fresh large infantry corps...and a couple French ports they could. But they have to get by 3 carriers...the entire Royal Navy and French navy then dislodge a division in a single attack. Odds are they will get damaged on the way in. BUT it is possible.

That is a tough order though...and in looking at what I did...I would have small corps in most of the southern ports. I did not notice I have a few that I could use.

More than likely I would have a little less in Egypt because the Italians can't do much...and god knows I have tried.

So just completed the campaign in France with ComadrejaKorp.

He went hard in the attack.

Final losses.

Germany:

3 Large Inf Corps
1 Paratrooper
1 Armor

UK losses:

2 Fighters overrun but will return in time, poor placement by me.
All units should get out. One large Inf corp will end up in the deployment queue I believe.

Can you post the losses screen please.

ORIGINAL: stjeand

So just completed the campaign in France with ComadrejaKorp.

When did France fall?

My current game, I was able to bring the Spanish in, thereby creating a new front and it seemed to help in the beginning. It failed though, as I was too slow in bringing on break through forces in to exploit major gaps in the French line. Second, the Spanish are too fragile to put up any real fight. Though the Spanish did take a couple of French cities in the south before getting their butt stomped in late 1944.