Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi al,

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

What more do you need to know?

Everything (see below)... [:D]

You can build as many franks as your production allows, but the game restricts you from upgrading most of your army fighter groups to anything beyond the oscar 2.

Some feel that one should be able to upgrade units within the particular force structure ija/ijn and within aircraft class, fighter for fighter.

Thus, if in 1945 you have 500 franks in the pool why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your oscar 2 fighter units to the better aircraft as opposed to leaving them half strength with an inferior model?

That's what the discussion is about.

I just got this list either from here (forum) or from Spooky's site:

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]

Is this accurate and correct?


If yes I see the problem here (because there are "dead ends" that doesn't make any sense)... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

Yar, that would be accurate to my knowledge...

Based on the arguments here, it seems to me that there is one of three courses to make everybody happy. Number 1, we forget all about it, shut up, and quitely play the game and hand Matrix our 80 bucks. Number 2, scrap the aircraft production system. If we can't make use of new planes, just scrap the system, and have it that when Squadron XX can have the new planes, they get the new planes, or Number 3, Matrix/2by3 implements the system most of us wants, and allow us, to semi historical limits, upgrade any squadron to whatever kind of plane we want and make use of the production system.

We can argue until we are blue in the face, but one of those three things is what is going to happen. Hopefully its number 3, most likely it will be number 1.

Oh, and Frag, I ran the turn again. Magically, after 2 turns, the Buffaloes were exchanged for F4F-4s. I guess Pearl was being stingy on me.

My take on some of the arguments floating around here against free upgrade paths.

Borg argument: Kind of silly, but I’ll bite. I think the allies would beat the Borg, given the movie demonstrated that Borg are only immune to phasers while bullets kill them easily. Allies = lots of bullets = lots of dead Borg. None of us here are arguing for Borg, we just want to use what we are able to build. None of us have got to 1943 or 1944, so who knows are industry and merchant marine might be all but destroyed and we won’t be able to build it anyway. If we can though, let us use it.

Historical path argument: Firstly it’s inaccurate as the historical paths are inaccurate. For example the 1st Sentai upgrades to KI-43-II in the game, however they did upgrade to KI-84’s in real life. We could go on about this, but that’s one example. Secondly, even the Japanese were trying to covert over to better aircraft, but lacked the numbers. In 1944 they stopped producing the Hayabusa and turned production over to the Hayate. The bombs prevented them from producing enough to fully switch, so squadrons kept what they had. If no one is dropping bombs on me and I’m producing enough, let me switch.

Japan couldn’t win argument: I agree, but I don’t see the point. None of us are saying that we can win militarily. That’s not the point of this discussion, but since it was brought up. I don’t care if you gave me Reppus in 1941, I still couldn’t beat the allies. They have too much of everything and it’s all better than the Japanese equipment. This is a game based on trying to last longer than the Japanese did historically if your Japan, or conquering them more quickly if you’re the Allies. Again this has nothing to do with production, so my argument remains the same… if I build it let me use it.

The F/A-18 argument: nothing to do with us as this argument deals with R/D which should be another thread (though one could argue if the player was doing better than the Japanese, one should get advanced planes slightly earlier as your R/D factories wouldn’t be bombed and your test flights wouldn’t be interrupted constantly by roving P-51s). My response to the argument that production and research are one in the same and we wouldn’t know if it was good before we built it is simple: from an R/D point of view I agree, but see above, from a production point of view this makes no sense. You telling me that after it started being produced they couldn’t figure out what plane was good and what wasn’t. So, Bob and Frank are talking about the P-40 Bob used to fly and the P-51 his squadron is now flying and he tells Frank, “you know I really can’t tell ‘em apart. Speed, roll, climb, turn, high altitude performance be damned I think we should stick with the P-40”

I’m not asking for X-wings and god like powers here. I think there should be an IJN/IJA divide and a Commonwealth/USA/USSR divide. I think bombers should remain bombers and fighters… fighters. If I build it U.S. or Japan, let me use it.

Argument or not, here is how I see it. IF we can build the planes, then we SHOULD be able to use them. If I have 30 Shindens, then I can at least outfit 1 Unit with a max of 27 planes. If we CAN'T use them, then we SHOULDN'T be able to advance the R&D to build the planes. It is that simple.

I would agree that if the game lets you have a plane in production, it is only reasonable to let you fly it. Why else is it being produced?

On the Japanese production side, I wonder if the point of the situation isn't being missed. Perhaps the ability to change production as the Japanese player was intended to come into play in the middle to later game period where difficult choices have to be made. If the Allies have bombed a certain engine plant into rubble, do you change the whole production scheme? If you only have 300 engine Xs but planes A&B need that engine, do you scrap one plane altogether or split prodcution, etc. The early production choices might be the best it will ever be for Japan. None of this alters the fact that you can mess around with production early in the game but I think it was realy meant to make sense in the endgame.

That being said, any squadron should be able to use any plane (Of the proper type - ftr, bmb, db, etc.) if it is in the inventory pool.

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Come on now.

Mr. Frag...has been more then helpful with all of us.

Agreed.

I don't agree with exactly how the upgrade paths are coded in the game, but lets not turn this into a Mr. Frag bashing.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
"why are you not producing the aircraft you need for the air groups you know by looking at your aircraft reinforcement pages are coming?"

In games terms you are correct, but historically… the Japanese didn’t build “Frank Air Groups” and then tool up factors to fill them. They produced Frank aircraft and then formed groups to use them.

The way it works in the game is historically backwards, but since the developers won’t change this… it is a game and work arounds can be found.

ORIGINAL: Warspite**
My take on some of the arguments floating around here against free upgrade paths.

Alright, I will post an argument against free upgrade paths.

It distorts the game historically.

As a player you know the capabilities of each aircraft and can decide well in advance which will be best suited for you needs… this is based on data based on hindsight. The Japanese didn’t know in January of 1942 how good the Frank was going to be, yet the player does. There were reasons why the Japanese continued to field Oscars throughout the war… political, military, economic, etc… free upgrade paths ignores these restraints. One can see these restrains when one looks at how changing leaders or moving unit from restricted commands works.

I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.

I do believe the present system is too restrictive, but I am uncertain whether completely free upgrades is much better. Although if it is an option switch, as someone suggested, that can be toggled like sub tactics is added, I have no problems at all.

Of course since the developers have said “No!”, it isn’t going to happen.

Hi all,

What can be done about this using the editor and what is hard coded (and can't be changed)?

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I would agree that if the game lets you have a plane in production, it is only reasonable to let you fly it. Why else is it being produced?

On the Japanese production side, I wonder if the point of the situation isn't being missed. Perhaps the ability to change production as the Japanese player was intended to come into play in the middle to later game period where difficult choices have to be made. If the Allies have bombed a certain engine plant into rubble, do you change the whole production scheme? If you only have 300 engine Xs but planes A&B need that engine, do you scrap one plane altogether or split prodcution, etc. The early production choices might be the best it will ever be for Japan. None of this alters the fact that you can mess around with production early in the game but I think it was realy meant to make sense in the endgame.

That being said, any squadron should be able to use any plane (Of the proper type - ftr, bmb, db, etc.) if it is in the inventory pool.

Unfortunately this is irrelevant. You should never care about what makes sense production wise you only have to think about what planes can you use in your squadrons upgrade wise. When all of plane A's factorys and required engine factorys are destroyed it is useless to switch to plane B since you cannot use plane B in the squadrons that previously used plane A, so you've to go back and start repairing plane A' factorys/engine shops so that the squadrons (sorry, Daitai's, Sentai's, Hakutai's) using plane A get fed again.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

By jove, you got it. That is what the whole debate is over.

You should not be that sarcastic... [:-]

I didn't have the upgrade table at that time and I thought that the only "problem" here was the IJN/IJA restriction (some people wanted to exchange aircraft types between branches which is, of course, historically inaccurate and I agree with that).

I didn't know that even in same branch of service (IJN and IJA) the squadrons are limited in their upgrade path... [:(][&:][:@]


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I didn't know that even in same branch of service (IJN and IJA) the squadrons are limited in their upgrade path... [:(][&:][:@]

That's because you spend too much time thinking up nice little changes to the game rather than playing the bloody thing. [;)]

It seems to me that a solution that might resolve this debate is to have the Japanese spend industrial capacity on airplane research as they do now but without a specific goal in mind. Then the computer could assign a random stepwise upgrade model when the total amount of research effort results in a new plane model. Even the amount of research to create a new plane model could be variable (i.e., mostly random). Thus, Mr. Frag's concerns about jumping from the Wright brothers directly to jet fighters is solved, and those who want to use the fruits of their research in the appropriate plane units could do so by simply altering the plane upgrade paths to accomodate the new system. It seems like these changes could be coded fairly easily in the existing system [:)]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Drongo

That's because you spend too much time thinking up nice little changes to the game rather than playing the bloody thing. [;)]

Nope... that's because my regular PBEM opponents (except Oleg who is still on vacation and "stuck" with v1.10c) are still WitP-less and therefore I still play UV PBEMs... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

By jove, you got it. That is what the whole debate is over.

You should not be that sarcastic... [:-]

I didn't have the upgrade table at that time and I thought that the only "problem" here was the IJN/IJA restriction (some people wanted to exchange aircraft types between branches which is, of course, historically inaccurate and I agree with that).

I didn't know that even in same branch of service (IJN and IJA) the squadrons are limited in their upgrade path... [:(][&:][:@]


Leo "Apollo11"

Guess it did come across kinda sarcastic. Sorry about that. I have seen this thread go all over the place, from F/A 18's to everything else. I guess it got to me.

The upgrade tree is kind of depressing isn't it?

Hi al,

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Guess it did come across kinda sarcastic. Sorry about that. I have seen this thread go all over the place, from F/A 18's to everything else. I guess it got to me.

OK... no problem at all... [:)]

The upgrade tree is kind of depressing isn't it?

Yes... <sigh> [:(]


BTW, I hope that someone experienced with WitP scenario editor can answer how much of this is solvable via editor (and how much is hard coded)...


Leo "Apollo11"

All of the upgrades can be changed via the editor. Lemurs has done some work on it. Changed alot of things.
Of course all that work was voided by the patch. Problem is finding someone to play either his version or an edited version of Scen15.

Most are afraid that if they play an edited version, they may actually see F/A 18's.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I didn't know that even in same branch of service (IJN and IJA) the squadrons are limited in their upgrade path... [:(][&:][:@]

Leo "Apollo11"

Yes, Nate Groups are set to upgrade Oscar, Tony, or Tojo. A player isn't given the option of which Nate groups upgrades to Tonys. It is fixed regardless of production, the military situation or the players choice.

OK, you've convinced me (if not 2BY3) that the game is broken from a long-term campaign game point of view. Can you use the editor to create anyfighter->anyfighter upgrade paths?

If not I'll assume that I can play at operational level but not strategic level, and base my purchase decisions accordingly.

Steve.

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix
Can you use the editor to create anyfighter->anyfighter upgrade paths?

Nope. All you can do in the editor is tell one air unit or aircraft type specifically what the next upgrade step (aircraft type) will be. You cannot set an upgrade path of "any fighter", etc.