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I agree that it was in HINDSIGHT unneccessary, but in the day by day attacking of germany it was probably viewed as unother viable target. All those civilian deaths, the firebombings etc underscore that this was not limited war, does anyone seriously think atom bombs wouldn't have been used in Europe had USSR stalled in the East and Normandy been postponed?

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I think the likelihood have me ever being in command of any REAL army (or navy, or airforce) is minimal so the citizens of the World can sleep safely in their beds at night!

[:)]

I think it's one of the great disgraces of the war that the destruction of Dresden has been repeatedly used to besmirch the reputation of RAF Bomber Command in WW2. Many brave men lost their lives taking the war to the Germans when no other forces would or could. In hindsight it's quite easy to argue that the bombing of Dresden was an unnecessary act but in February 1945, when the primary concern was to end the war as quickly as possible and by whatever means necessary this was an 'unfact'. In any case, what was the real death toll? People love to cite David Irving's figures from his book 'The Destruction of Dresden' - 135,000 dead! In reality, as the Dresden police-chief of the time said, the best estimate was 25,000 dead and 35,000 missing - about the same as what happened in Hamburg (John Terraine - 'The Right of the Line' - p.678). Was it a tragedy? In terms of the fact that all civilian casualties in war are tragedies then yes! Was it a 'war crime'? Only if you want to include the fire bombing of other cities like Hamburg or Tokyo and the Atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think linking critism of the Dresden incident and "besmirch the reputation of RAF Bomber Command in WW2" is way out of line. Talking about the many brave men is fine, but there were many brave men on either side. What we really schould talk about regariding warcrimes, is the many brave men, women and children that was not a fighting force - called civillians, that were sacrified unneccessary. And I of course believe the military objective of Dresden is solely used to justify unjustifiable orders, not because dresden was unavoidable.

Of course I believe the atom bombs in Japan is a war crime! Was it necessary to win the war? No one has ever claimed it to have been. It was convenient. I believe that the rules of war must be placed in atleast 2 categories: The first one is when you defend your country and your people. Then war crimes is more easily accepted. The other is when you are winning, your country is comparable safe. You dont have your back against the wall. Then the definition for war crimes should be much lower.

Now you try to justify Dresden by "to end the war as quickly as possible and by whatever means necessary". My humble opinion is that no one can ever justify blind massacre of civilians using this. If it was acceptable in political and military circles, and of course among most people, why did USA not nuke Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, whatever country they feel the need to assault? Why did not the allies simply use GAS upon the german forces? When "whatever means necessary" becomes a dogma in a situation like the one here, humans has reach the lowest debts possible, and the mere tought makes me rather ill. Whatever good the bomber command did in ww2, they stooped down to the NAZI level by ordering dresden. And, by your account, Hamburg as well.



JT

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Bormann alive! They found his body in 1972 exactly where Artur Axmann said he'd seen it together with the body of Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger following the 'breakout' from the Berlin bunker. Just because he was supposedly spotted in various locations around the World doesn't mean he escaped. 'Elvis Presley' has been seen repeatedly since his death in 1977, it doesn't mean he's alive. Farago (or should that be 'Farrago'[:D]) is a journalist who likes conspiracy theories, he has little credibility as a historian no matter how readable his books are!

Calm down. . .

In 1972 a doctor tried to identify two bodies that were found by using dental records he had seen 30 years previous to this examination. In other words, he allegedly identified Bormann's teeth FROM MEMORY. From this, he allegedly stated one of the bodies was Bormann [8|]

The West German Gov't, hoping to close the issue and sweep it under the carpet, declared Bormann dead.

However, MANY serious and credible sources refused to believe it including the Israeli Mossad, which continued to hunt for Bormann.

There are hundreds of creditable reports since the end of the war until the 1960s of sightings of Bormann at various locations in Europe and later in South America, when his presence in a North Italian monastery was first announced. In the same year, his wife Gerda (a rabid Nazi and daughter of Supreme Party Judge, Walter Buch) died of cancer in South Tyrol, though his ten children survived the war. It was then alleged that Bormann had escaped (like other loyal Nazis) via Rome to South America. Rumoured to have settled in Argentina where he was living secretly as a millionaire, allegedly spotted in Brazil and also in Chile, Bormann's traces proved as elusive as the anonymity in which he first rose to power.

However, the ultimate fate of Bormann is of only secondary importance.

In his research, Farago and several other investigators, also uncovered a scheme orchestrated by Bormann, and arranged with important Nazis and German corporations, to ship out of Germany during the war, billions of dollars in assets to Argentina and to many other countries.

Considering South America was a prime refuge for the Nazis after the war it is instructive to look at changes of the gold reserves of South American countries, particularly Argentina. Argentina’s gold reserves increased from 313.83 metric tons in 1940 to 1064 tons in 1945. The increase in the gold reserves of Argentina in terms of dollars, was a whooping $635,000,000 dollars. To put that figure in perspective the U.S. budget for 1940 was approximately $9.4 billion dollars. Brazil also saw an increase in gold reserves from 45 metric tons in 1940 to 314 tons in 1945, or an increase of about $228,000,000 dollars.

The above reserve figures shed some light on the destination of some of the Nazis’ loot. How much of the increase in South American gold reserves came from Germany near the end of the war to finance the Nazis’ planned comeback is still unknown. However, gold was only one small part of the Nazis’ comeback plan. Even more valuable to the Nazis’ plan were the amounts of bearer stocks, bonds and the number of Nazi front corporations established worldwide by Bormann. These corporations held valuable patents and would produce a steady income stream to finance the Nazi underground.

Many important Nazis were ferreted out of the Third Reich via ODESSA and the Vatican's Ratlines.

This is all historical fact.

It is a very interesting area of research and the interested reader might find the following of some interest:


* "Unholy Trinity" by Mark Aarons and John Loftus

* "Blowback: America's recruitment of Nazis, and its disastrous effect on our domestic and foreign policy" by Christopher Simpson

* "Nazi in Exile" by Paul Manning


Current Vatican lawsuits:

http://www.remnantofgod.org/ustashe.htm

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Manstein had a policy of starving the Soviet populace; he did not join the conspirators to kill Hitler as Rommel, Stauffenberg, etc did; and he was sentenced to 18 years in prison for war crimes.

Speaking of atrocities. Who was responsible for the Dresden bombing 1945? Did anyone of them face trial? It is the winning team who dictates what is war crimes.

Some of the civilians that were actually found after the firestorms in Dresden caused by RAF and USAAF.

Let's not go down this road my friend.

Nazi Germany instituted a program of Genocide against Jews and against the Slavs in the east, resulting in millions and millions of people being MURDERED.

This does not include the systematic German bombing of Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Belgrade, etc. which resulted in hundreds of thousands of more INNOCENT deaths.

Germany started the war - the Allies ended the war.

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Manstein had a policy of starving the Soviet populace; he did not join the conspirators to kill Hitler as Rommel, Stauffenberg, etc did; and he was sentenced to 18 years in prison for war crimes.

Speaking of atrocities. Who was responsible for the Dresden bombing 1945? Did anyone of them face trial? It is the winning team who dictates what is war crimes.

Some of the civilians that were actually found after the firestorms in Dresden caused by RAF and USAAF.

Let's not go down this road my friend.

Nazi Germany instituted a program of Genocide against Jews and against the Slavs in the east, resulting in milions and millions of people being MURDERED.

This does not include the systematic German bombing of Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Belgrade, etc. which resulted in hundreds of thousands of more INNOCENT deaths.

Germany started the war - the Allies ended the war.

Please vonrom, explain how calling the Dresden incident a war crime simultaniously means that I believe Nazi germany did not commit any crimes, did not kill innocent people. If this is a feeble attempt to justify the killings of Dresdens civilians, then you put yourself on the very same levels as the Nazis, and of cource supports me in my claimings that the motiv behind dresden was revenge for the war. Whatever path you decide upon, im sure it will be difficult to support.


JT

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton.

I dare you.

If you won't accept my dare, then I appeal to everyone else in this thread to dare Von Rom to do this. All the exasperation and frustration of the Patton thread will at once be consigned to history if I got to see this.
I believe there were conclusions D'este drew which I disagreed with, but I didn't see any noticeable errors in fact, merely in interpretation. Since interpretation is personal, then the errors are not errors as such, merely points where I and the far more learned Colonel D'este do not agree on what the facts tell us.

I also believe that providing misleading information is about as bad as it gets for a historian. Therefore, the results of your research should be pretty damning for Colonel D'Este. Perhaps we'll get a new revised edition of "Patton: A genius for War" out of it, with the necessary corrections?

Regards,
IronDuke

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne



Speaking of atrocities. Who was responsible for the Dresden bombing 1945? Did anyone of them face trial? It is the winning team who dictates what is war crimes.

Some of the civilians that were actually found after the firestorms in Dresden caused by RAF and USAAF.

Let's not go down this road my friend.

Nazi Germany instituted a program of Genocide against Jews and against the Slavs in the east, resulting in milions and millions of people being MURDERED.

This does not include the systematic German bombing of Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Belgrade, etc. which resulted in hundreds of thousands of more INNOCENT deaths.

Germany started the war - the Allies ended the war.

Please vonrom, explain how calling the Dresden incident a war crime simultaniously means that I believe Nazi germany did not commit any crimes, did not kill innocent people. If this is a feeble attempt to justify the killings of Dresdens civilians, then you put yourself on the very same levels as the Nazis, and of cource supports me in my claimings that the motiv behind dresden was revenge for the war. Whatever path you decide upon, im sure it will be difficult to support.


JT

It was TOTAL WAR.

Both sides fought tooth and nail.

Germany refused to surrender.

It paid the consequences.

Germany REAPED what it SOWED.

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton.

I dare you.

If you won't accept my dare, then I appeal to everyone else in this thread to dare Von Rom to do this. All the exasperation and frustration of the Patton thread will at once be consigned to history if I got to see this.
I believe there were conclusions D'este drew which I disagreed with, but I didn't see any noticeable errors in fact, merely in interpretation. Since interpretation is personal, then the errors are not errors as such, merely points where I and the far more learned Colonel D'este do not agree on what the facts tell us.

I also believe that providing misleading information is about as bad as it gets for a historian. Therefore, the results of your research should be pretty damning for Colonel D'Este. Perhaps we'll get a new revised edition of "Patton: A genius for War" out of it, with the necessary corrections?

Regards,
IronDuke

Well, well ID you have returned. . . again. . .

Your faith in historians is admirable.

Naive. . . but admirable. . .

I guess you never heard of historians trying to re-write history; or having an agenda; or fudging the truth to discredit a person or group. . . [8|]

Your uncritical acceptance of ANY written word is quite scary. . .

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I agree that it was in HINDSIGHT unneccessary, but in the day by day attacking of germany it was probably viewed as unother viable target. All those civilian deaths, the firebombings etc underscore that this was not limited war, does anyone seriously think atom bombs wouldn't have been used in Europe had USSR stalled in the East and Normandy been postponed?

I believe that even at that time it was clear to many that it was a crime against mankind. However, in wartimes our moral is put to the hardest test, and only strong men (women) can rise above the pure instincts of hate and revenge. Because our higher military commanders very rearly see and feel the direct effects of their orders, we MUST expect them to be of a different moral fibre than your average GI Joe. The most useful thing a general should indulge themself in is diplomacy and philosophy.

This brings my toughts to a US general in the Bosnian conflict. You probably have your average Patton doctrine of pushing with whatever force necessary to achieve the goal of being the strongest man, in that this fellow ordered a british general to attack an airfield that the russians were closing in on. The British doctrine is somewhat different than the US, and this fellow decided to couple more than 1 thought, and actually included som political understanding of the situation, and landed on a decicion to refuse his chief. That proved his moral fibre as well! It was widely respected as a correct action, and without knowing for sure, I believe the US fella was stuck on the career-ladder from then on.

Using hindsight is important to decide what was wrong and what was right. The Dresden action was hence wrong.


JT

I am a tad distrubed here. Von Rom, are you saying that the killing of civilians is ok depending on who is fighting on what side of the war or something?

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Germany REAPED what it SOWED.

This is the mentality of men devoid of moral fibre, men who is only good as cannon fodder, men who set human thinking and advance back to stone age. "An eye for an eye" is an easily pit to fall into, but it is still a PIT. You are in there now, vonRom, I urge you to try hard to climb out! [:)]


JT

Oh, BTW, the eye for an eye mentality you so darely press to your chest, was most likely the same basic instinct that allowed the Naziz to becom powerful in pre-war germany.

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.

It would only be fair that you presented your views first, vonRom. It was you who said "If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton."


JT

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I agree that it was in HINDSIGHT unneccessary, but in the day by day attacking of germany it was probably viewed as unother viable target. All those civilian deaths, the firebombings etc underscore that this was not limited war, does anyone seriously think atom bombs wouldn't have been used in Europe had USSR stalled in the East and Normandy been postponed?

I believe that even at that time it was clear to many that it was a crime against mankind. However, in wartimes our moral is put to the hardest test, and only strong men (women) can rise above the pure instincts of hate and revenge. Because our higher military commanders very rearly see and feel the direct effects of their orders, we MUST expect them to be of a different moral fibre than your average GI Joe. The most useful thing a general should indulge themself in is diplomacy and philosophy.

This brings my toughts to a US general in the Bosnian conflict. You probably have your average Patton doctrine of pushing with whatever force necessary to achieve the goal of being the strongest man, in that this fellow ordered a british general to attack an airfield that the russians were closing in on. The British doctrine is somewhat different than the US, and this fellow decided to couple more than 1 thought, and actually included som political understanding of the situation, and landed on a decicion to refuse his chief. That proved his moral fibre as well! It was widely respected as a correct action, and without knowing for sure, I believe the US fella was stuck on the career-ladder from then on.

Using hindsight is important to decide what was wrong and what was right. The Dresden action was hence wrong.


JT

First of all this is off topic and should be taken to a NEW thread.

Second, von Manstein, who many consider one of Germany's best generals promulgated an order to starve masses of innocent Soviet citizens. This was designed mass murder.

Von Manstein was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

So please take this topic to another thread.

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I am a tad distrubed here. Von Rom, are you saying that the killing of civilians is ok depending on who is fighting on what side of the war or something?

This is OFF TOPIC.

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.

It would only be fair that you presented your views first, vonRom. It was you who said "If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton."


JT

Heheh

So you're speaking for ID?

And ID speaks for you?

You completely ignored my initial request, and now you add your two cents' worth? [8|]

ID "Dared" me. So let him state D'Este's views on who planned Operation Cobra.

Heheh

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I am a tad distrubed here. Von Rom, are you saying that the killing of civilians is ok depending on who is fighting on what side of the war or something?

This is OFF TOPIC.

Maybe, but it has evolved naturally from the topic. Is your Bormann conspiracy any more to the topic?



JT

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I am a tad distrubed here. Von Rom, are you saying that the killing of civilians is ok depending on who is fighting on what side of the war or something?

This is OFF TOPIC.

Maybe, but it has evolved naturally from the topic. Is your Bormann conspiracy any more to the topic?



JT

That was a slight off-shoot.

However, topics such as strategic bombing usually take on a life of their own - so please move it to a NEW thread.

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Hey Von Rom we get it [>:] your a Patton fan

And you're still a troll [>:]

Hehe, I think you're jumping the gun there. Save the Jpeg for the real Trolls.

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.

It would only be fair that you presented your views first, vonRom. It was you who said "If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton."


JT

Heheh

So you're speaking for ID?

And ID speaks for you?

You completely ignored my initial request, and now you add your two cents' worth? [8|]

ID "Dared" me. So let him state D'Este's views on who planned Operation Cobra.

Heheh

If you believe anyone who critizes you, have other opinions than you, or just points out some obviouse things like this, to be "believers" in ID, then ID would be god on these forums [:)] I can assure you that ID did not write to me "you do this, and I do this,..., and then we can shut that vonRom guy up! " [:D] There is no conspiracy found here. In fact, I urge you to keep up the postings, as you make these forums interesting to follow. ID speaks not for me. I doubt ID is even interested in my opinions. But, yes, on this occation I guess I did meddle in favour of ID, not that he needs any....[;)]


JT