Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Win - as in accomplish their mission objectives and inflict greater losses and damge on the enemy than they receive, thereby owning the field of battle and inflicting their will on their opponent.

THe IJN did inflict greater losses in the two battles mentioned. I don't think they could claim they accomplished their objectives, although some historians say Battle of Santa Cruz was to force the USN to withdraw its carriers (which they did) and award the victory to the IJN.

So, do we call the battles a draw? Most historians are a bit more nuanced then that and break it down into strategic vs. tactical victory.

In tonnage sunk in those two battles the Japs come out on top - in lives lost and plans thwarted they- loose (which is what counts)

B

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Win - as in accomplish their mission objectives and inflict greater losses and damge on the enemy than they receive, thereby owning the field of battle and inflicting their will on their opponent.

THe IJN did inflict greater losses in the two battles mentioned. I don't think they could claim they accomplished their objectives, although some historians say Battle of Santa Cruz was to force the USN to withdraw its carriers (which they did) and award the victory to the IJN.

So, do we call the battles a draw? Most historians are a bit more nuanced then that and break it down into strategic vs. tactical victory.

Also let us not forget that we simply didn't have full "true KB" vs. USN CV battle (i.e. full might of one against full might of other actualy used).

The "Zuikaku" and "Shokaku" were considered the least experienced CV's in IJN KB and we have them pitched against best of USN in Coral Sea (although it is considered IJN loss - I would never call it that way and if it would happen in WitP game no player would call it that way also).

The only "true KB" vs. USN CV's were just two small Hiryu attacks against Yorktown. Yorktown was effectively disabled even though USN had radar early warning and full CAP (USN Wildcats didn't do anything else than doing CAP at Midway)...


Leo "Apollo11"

In tonnage sunk in those two battles the Japs come out on top - in lives lost and plans thwarted they- loose (which is what counts)

Well, then you've changed your definition.

And if their plan was to force withdrawal of the USN carriers from Santa Cruz, then their plans were not thwarted.

Again, "victory" is not always black or white.

By using your definition, you could argue that Savo was a defeat for the IJN (did not accomplish every objective). Most folks would NOT try to argue the Allies won that battle, or that the IJN lost it.

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

What an utterly amazing conclusion!!

I think what Leo means is that despite the bonanza of intelligence, the US ambush nearly went wrong.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Win - as in accomplish their mission objectives and inflict greater losses and damge on the enemy than they receive, thereby owning the field of battle and inflicting their will on their opponent.

THe IJN did inflict greater losses in the two battles mentioned. I don't think they could claim they accomplished their objectives, although some historians say Battle of Santa Cruz was to force the USN to withdraw its carriers (which they did) and award the victory to the IJN.

So, do we call the battles a draw? Most historians are a bit more nuanced then that and break it down into strategic vs. tactical victory.

Also let us not forget that we simply didn't have full "true KB" vs. USN CV battle (i.e. full might of one against full might of other actualy used).

The "Zuikaku" and "Shokaku" were considered the least experienced CV's in IJN KB and we have them pitched against best of USN in Coral Sea (although it is considered IJN loss - I would never call it that way and if it would happen in WitP game no player would call it that way also).

The only "true KB" vs. USN CV's were just two small Hiryu attacks against Yorktown. Yorktown was effectively disabled even though USN had radar early warning and full CAP (USN Wildcats didn't do anything else than doing CAP at Midway)...


Leo "Apollo11"

Yah, I would call that a USN Victory - any day.
It's a perfect example of Japanese victories - which is why they lost the war...they DID loose the war you know.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

It was great turning point of war but it was poorly executed by USN (even with all intel info they had)...

What an utterly amazing conclusion!!

And how would you call it?

How can ayone call USN CV attack on KB other than utter confusion and poor execution?

Only God and "luck" or "bad luck" (depending from your viewpoint) can describe the fact that Dauntless bombers come unopossed over KB at most vulnerable moment...

The USN torpedo bombers did _NOT_ sacrifice on purpose to draw away Japanese CAP and leave window open for dive bombers - there was _NO_ coordination or intent - it was pure coincidence!


Leo "Apollo11"

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

What an utterly amazing conclusion!!

I think what Leo means is that despite the bonanza of intelligence, the US ambush nearly went wrong.

Exactly that!


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Big B

they DID loose the war you know.

DID THEY??!!!! wow! [:'(]

(just joshing ya big b'er)

Course i am driving a Japanese made automobile....maybe this was all part of their insidious plan.....

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

What an utterly amazing conclusion!!

I think what Leo means is that despite the bonanza of intelligence, the US ambush nearly went wrong.

Exactly that!


Leo "Apollo11"

Yah - ALMOST went wrong - but didn't

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yah - ALMOST went wrong - but didn't

Nope. It didn't and thank god for that.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Big B

they DID loose the war you know.

DID THEY??!!!! wow! [:'(]

(just joshing ya big b'er)

Course i am driving a Japanese made automobile....maybe this was all part of their insidious plan.....

Ok you got me there - a point I have wondered myself[:D]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yah, I would call that a USN Victory - any day.
It's a perfect example of Japanese victories - which is why they lost the war...they DID loose the war you know.

You play WitP game- right?

How would you call historic Coral Sea battle if it would happen in WitP game (let's say for the sake of argument)?

Would you trade 1x damaged CV "Shokaku" + 1x untouched CV "Zuikaku" vs 1x sunk CV "Lexington" and 1x damaged CV "Yorktown"?


Leo "Apollo11"

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yah, I would call that a USN Victory - any day.
It's a perfect example of Japanese victories - which is why they lost the war...they DID loose the war you know.

You play WitP game- right?

How would you call historic Coral Sea battle if it would happen in WitP game (let's say for the sake of argument)?

Would you trade 1x damaged CV "Shokaku" + 1x untouched CV "Zuikaku" vs 1x sunk CV "Lexington" and 1x damaged CV "Yorktown"?


Leo "Apollo11"

One sunk Lexington - both of my airgroups pilots ok - for one Sunk Shoho, one Shokaku out of the war for months, two carrier airgroups shot to hell - and unavailable for months, and the Invasion of Port Moresby stopped cold - saving New Guinea

I would be quite happy with that thank you very much (And in WitP Lexington comes back as an Essex - good trade any day)

B

And how would you call it?

How can ayone call USN CV attack on KB other than utter confusion and poor execution?

Only God and "luck" or "bad luck" (depending from your viewpoint) can describe the fact that Dauntless bombers come unopossed over KB at most vulnerable moment...

The USN torpedo bombers did _NOT_ sacrifice on purpose to draw away Japanese CAP and leave window open for dive bombers - there was _NO_ coordination or intent - it was pure coincidence!

Who knows how things might have gone if the timing were different?? That's why we play these games, i think - trying to guess. Maybe things would have been different had the SBDs shown up first - and the torpedo bombers would have gotten through when the Zeros were attacking the SBDs up in the clouds (they wouldn't have been really good at diving, iirc). Or maybe things could have happened that they both arrived at the same time. Then what would have happened? Who really knows?

But Spruance took the chance by launching at maximum range, knowing that things could go very wrong, but taking the chance he could catch the IJN flatfooted- which occurred. One could argue that the bad luck was with the USN - the lack of coordination was "bad luck". (Note - i do NOT hold that to be the case). But to say it was "bad luck" for the IJN (or good luck for the USN) when the battle came off pretty much as the itself originally IJN predicted, is, well, astonishing is the word that leaps to mind again.

Only God and "luck" or "bad luck" (depending from your viewpoint) can describe the fact that Dauntless bombers come unopossed over KB at most vulnerable moment...

Not at all. Look, you've got to look at the details. The Japanese CAP was down low in part because of poor command and control. (The USN had the same problem at the time. This is understandable because these were the first CV vs CV engagements anyone ever had. Prior to that it had been on both sides a matter of attacking and defending fixed installations, which I think is operationally a much less complex task both attacking and defending.) It was also down low because the Japanese fleet had been under continuous attack for 40 minutes. Their defense was overtaxed and stretched beyond its breaking point.

That leaves the Dauntlesses. One formation (led by McCluskey) found Strike force courtesy of locating Arashio. More on that in a moment. The other formation found Strike Force because they'd been told (prior to launch) of Strike Force's course change (where McCluskey had not). Either way you've got a minimum of 14 SBDs over Strike Force with their CAP on the deck. No matter what you change, IMO, the Japanese lose two CVs.

Now to McCluskey. He found Arashio. Arashio was where she was courtesy of hounding USS Nautilus as the latter set up for an attack on one of the carriers (probably Kaga). The Japanese course change was precipitated in part by the effort to evade submarines thought to be in the area (and whose presence was confirmed by the appearance of Nautilus).

So if you mentally subtract Arashio from the equation (giving McCluskey no ship to intuit), you also shouldprobably subtract Strike Force's course change... and that puts McCluskey AND all the other SBDs on target at abot the same time that Kido Butai is shooting down the inbvound from Midway strikes. Only in this case the USN strike probably arrives as a coordinated strike of 3 USN CVs worth of SBDs, TBDs, and F4Fs.

IMO that would have been even worse for the Japanese than the historical result because I think all 4 Japanese CVs would have been sunk straight away, leaving Yorktown unharmed and a whole bunch of F4Fs available that in the historical fight had to ditch when they ran out of fuel.

BRADY!!!

SEE WHAT YOU STARTED!!![:D]

ORIGINAL: Big B

BRADY!!!

SEE WHAT YOU STARTED!!![:D]

Oh sure, blame it on Brady!![:D][:D]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Big B

BRADY!!!

SEE WHAT YOU STARTED!!![:D]

Oh this is nothing yet... I think in early days we had 10-20 pages of F4F vs Zero discussons (I think those are gone because when hacker attacked Matrix the forum lost many many dood posts/threads)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

If the zero was a superior plane, and the Japanese pilots were superior pilots, then "How is it that in the 4 1942 US CV vs IJN CV battles, when F4Fs directly engaged A6Ms, they consistently acquitted themselves better?"

The Zero had many advantages over the Wildcat but the greatest advantage the Wildcat had was its ability to bring its pilot home after suffering battle damage. We'll nevere know how many Japanese pilots were lost trying to nurse a damaged plane home. Just having self-sealing tanks made a huge difference. A single bullet hole in a fuel tank was normally good enough to bring down a Zero if he had any distance to fly.
Another factor is pilot fatigue. It would be far more realistic to adjust fatigue levels then experience and aircraft attributes. The game does a poor job of modeling fatigue. Engaging in combat should induce large amounts of fatigue. Take a look at what the two fleets had been doing prior to those 4 carrier battles.

The Japanese had been in near continuous combat since the start. American pilots were much fresher. The US conducted a few raids and basically picked when and where they fought and rested in between. So Japanese fatigue levels should be much higher. And its a well known fact that fatigued pilots make far more mistakes and are less likely to survive combat.

Asking the question strictly vis the CVs sets aside the alleged and very minor Japanese disadvantages (that did not offset Allied disadvantages there) of the Guadalcanal encounters between 11th AF and the VMF VF pilots at Henderson because the CVs typically faced off at ranges that favored the Zero and handicapped the F4F. Yet the F4Fs still came out on top.

Wow, its obvious you have never served as aircrew anywhere. You have no understanding of the variables that account for aircrew performance. Fatigue is insidious. A tired pilot makes mistakes. It affects his ability to think clearly. Having that longer range can also be a serious disadvantage, especially when damaged. These factors play on your mind and can create feelings of futility. Which would you rather do? Fly escort on a bunch of bombers in a lightweight fighter for 550 miles (8-10 hours of flight time), engage in combat, then possibly nurse a damaged plane home OR fly from a primitive airstrip in a robust airplane, engage the enemy, then land and wait for the next attack. The Japanese knew that if they were damaged, they stood little chance of returning. US pilots had an excellent chance of doing so. Even if you got shelled that night, its still better being on the defensive at Guadalcanal. And you make Rabaul sound as though it were a garden paradise... hardly. The living conditions were certainly much better than at Henderson but the fact is it was no picnic either. As the battles progressed, both sides became fatigued but conditions continued to improve for US pilots. They didn't for Japanese.

The Japanese lost a lot of good pilots in both the land and sea campaigns that weren't easily replaced. Their training program had yet to really ramp up to meet the demand.

Combat should induce much more fatigue than what the game actually does. Fatigue is primarily based on range in WitP. Combat should be the greatest factor. And if you have to fly a long way then engage in combat, fatigue should really jump.

Chez

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Only God and "luck" or "bad luck" (depending from your viewpoint) can describe the fact that Dauntless bombers come unopossed over KB at most vulnerable moment...

Not at all. Look, you've got to look at the details. The Japanese CAP was down low in part because of poor command and control. (The USN had the same problem at the time. This is understandable because these were the first CV vs CV engagements anyone ever had. Prior to that it had been on both sides a matter of attacking and defending fixed installations, which I think is operationally a much less complex task both attacking and defending.) It was also down low because the Japanese fleet had been under continuous attack for 40 minutes. Their defense was overtaxed and stretched beyond its breaking point.

That leaves the Dauntlesses. One formation (led by McCluskey) found Strike force courtesy of locating Arashio. More on that in a moment. The other formation found Strike Force because they'd been told (prior to launch) of Strike Force's course change (where McCluskey had not). Either way you've got a minimum of 14 SBDs over Strike Force with their CAP on the deck. No matter what you change, IMO, the Japanese lose two CVs.

Now to McCluskey. He found Arashio. Arashio was where she was courtesy of hounding USS Nautilus as the latter set up for an attack on one of the carriers (probably Kaga). The Japanese course change was precipitated in part by the effort to evade submarines thought to be in the area (and whose presence was confirmed by the appearance of Nautilus).

So if you mentally subtract Arashio from the equation (giving McCluskey no ship to intuit), you also shouldprobably subtract Strike Force's course change... and that puts McCluskey AND all the other SBDs on target at abot the same time that Kido Butai is shooting down the inbvound from Midway strikes. Only in this case the USN strike probably arrives as a coordinated strike of 3 USN CVs worth of SBDs, TBDs, and F4Fs.

IMO that would have been even worse for the Japanese than the historical result because I think all 4 Japanese CVs would have been sunk straight away, leaving Yorktown unharmed and a whole bunch of F4Fs available that in the historical fight had to ditch when they ran out of fuel.

This is why war is unpredictable... so many "what if" and "could have" / "would have" possibilities outcomes of which we will never know...


Leo "Apollo11"