Matrix Games Forums

Also interested in why so many bases have small amounts of Oil and resources. (1's and 2's)

Neat question. Turns out "great minds think alike." Andrew did this in CHS to some degree. I did it - without knowing he had done - in other places. For the same reason: these are rubber plantations in remote places. We wanted something that was "more valuable" than just "resources."!!! And it is not that much by weight. You get 1 for every 365 tons a year yield.

Hey, El Cid Again, I think I will try your mod [:)] I have downloaded all the files, except the scenario itself... When will it be available? Thank you for sharing your stuff with the WitP community [&o]

P.S.:
I know I called you "arrogant tool" on the past. But the more I read your many posts, the more I sort of like your peculiar "style": there is a funny mixture of arrogance, self-importance, naiveté and gross mistakes (the latter only sometimes though). But you always try to back up your ideas with arguments (even if sometimes they may be hilarious). In other words, you are honest [:)]

Thank you again!

except the scenario itself... When will it be available?

you are now on the delivary list

Cobra Aus

v2.24 medium upgrade released sent to relays and dispersed to my list

1) Inland ports may work now.

2) Japanese border garrisons added (6 of 8) and corrected (2 of 8) for composition.

3) Many Japanese area supply sinks added - and these should now be complete.
Japanese locations should not be producing excess supplies unjustified by conditions.

4) A good deal of effort was made to improve reporting in a visual-technical sense. This is only chrome,
but it is worth the effort to be clear and communicate as much as possible in as little space as possible.

5) Minor technical issues corrected.

Cobra Aus

Hi Cid loking at the uk carrier groups there are a few errors / problems

1 Indefatigable seems to be on map at start but with no location given
2 Illustrious has no air group very late entry date should arrive in may 42
3 various problems with airgroup setup

I did a post many moons ago about the FAA air group composition on the individual carrier entry dates search on Royal navy airgroups and my Login name

there are lots of subsequent switches in air groups etc you might consider adding 806 & 796 squadrons as carrier capable fulmar squadrons created in march april 42 in Columbo .

here are the details though

Indomidable

800 squadron Fulmar Added ready 12 upgrade (Sea Hurricane)
880 squadron Sea hurricane ready 9 upgrade (Seafire)
827 squadron Albacores ready 24 Upgrade (Barracuda)



Illustrious

881 squadron Wildcat , Ready 21, upgrade to (Corsair)
829 squadron Albacores, Ready 18, upgrade to (Barracuda)

Formidable

888 Squadron, Martlet , ready 12 upgrade (Corsair)
803 squadron, Fulmar, ready 12 Upgrade (Sea Hurricane)
820 Squadron Albacores, ready 18 Upgrade to (Barracuda)

Hermes

814 a flight, Swordfish ready 6 upgrade Albacore
814 b flight, Swordfish ready 6 upgrade Albacore


Victorious

896 squadron, martlets ready 24 upgrade (Corsairs)
832 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 12 no upgrade

Indefatigable

896 squadron, Seafires ready 24 no upgrade
1770 squadron, Firefly ready 12 no upgrade
820 squadron, TBF Avenger ready 21

Implacable

896 squadron, Seafires, ready 48 no upgrade
1771 squadron, Fireflys, ready 12 no upgrade
828 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 21 no upgrade

one other thing did Tonys really come into production in january 1944 I thought they were in sthe south pacific in late 43 speed looks a bit slow too !

Scenarios received, Cobra Aus. Thank you very much! [&o]

P.S.:
and in fact, you are part of the RHS project (the map and art and possibly more stuff) so re-thanks to the cyber lot of you (El Cid Again, yourself & others) [:)]

1 Indefatigable seems to be on map at start but with no location given
2 Illustrious has no air group very late entry date should arrive in may 42
3 various problems with airgroup setup

I did a post many moons ago about the FAA air group composition on the individual carrier entry dates search on Royal navy airgroups and my Login name

I printed it and tried to use it - three times - finally lost it. Never could make it work. Many squadrons were too late for our purposes - or had been on another ship sooner - or are unusable by us. [If a unit changes names, we can not use later versions of it ! We cannot disband units.]

It is hard to do FAA. Hardest of all. Make a list. Send it to me. I will use anything better than I have. I had to "fill in the blanks" at the end - using plausable possible options for half a dozen CVEs. Do it better. RHS is like that - we always take better data - and we don't take a long time to do it.

The starting pools contain aircraft for many models that arrive (start production) in 42-01 or later. A list has been sent by email (cannot post PDF files here).

Please amplify this with dates

and cross check deck size. We cannot have more planes than the ship accepts. I use a conservative system - hanger capacity only - because our planes won't wash over the side in heavy weather! Everyone is using the same system to be fair. Most air units didn't really operate full size groups - particularly early in the war. IF we get a realistic deck park rule, we can change carrier aircraft counts - again for everyone. That will take code.

here are the details though

Indomidable

800 squadron Fulmar Added ready 12 upgrade (Sea Hurricane)
880 squadron Sea hurricane ready 9 upgrade (Seafire)
827 squadron Albacores ready 24 Upgrade (Barracuda)



Illustrious

881 squadron Wildcat , Ready 21, upgrade to (Corsair)
829 squadron Albacores, Ready 18, upgrade to (Barracuda)

Formidable

888 Squadron, Martlet , ready 12 upgrade (Corsair)
803 squadron, Fulmar, ready 12 Upgrade (Sea Hurricane)
820 Squadron Albacores, ready 18 Upgrade to (Barracuda)

Hermes

814 a flight, Swordfish ready 6 upgrade Albacore
814 b flight, Swordfish ready 6 upgrade Albacore


Victorious

896 squadron, martlets ready 24 upgrade (Corsairs)
832 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 12 no upgrade

Indefatigable

896 squadron, Seafires ready 24 no upgrade
1770 squadron, Firefly ready 12 no upgrade
820 squadron, TBF Avenger ready 21

Implacable

896 squadron, Seafires, ready 48 no upgrade
1771 squadron, Fireflys, ready 12 no upgrade
828 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 21 no upgrade

one other thing did Tonys really come into production in january 1944 I thought they were in sthe south pacific in late 43 speed looks a bit slow too !

Yep - this was challenged - confirmed - accepted - and changed - but the change has not stuck - TWICE! Set to 4 43 - and it will be in releases 2.24 and later.

The starting pools contain aircraft for many models that arrive (start production) in 42-01 or later. A list has been sent by email (cannot post PDF files here).

It is true - we do that on purpose. Is that a problem? There are technical reasons I use pools instead of production. My impression is you cannot use a plane before its date.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The starting pools contain aircraft for many models that arrive (start production) in 42-01 or later. A list has been sent by email (cannot post PDF files here).

It is true - we do that on purpose. Is that a problem? There are technical reasons I use pools instead of production. My impression is you cannot use a plane before its date.

I'll test this if I can find a group that upgrades correctly.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The starting pools contain aircraft for many models that arrive (start production) in 42-01 or later. A list has been sent by email (cannot post PDF files here).

It is true - we do that on purpose. Is that a problem? There are technical reasons I use pools instead of production. My impression is you cannot use a plane before its date.

I'll test this if I can find a group that upgrades correctly.

In a word - 'yes' you can.

Orders phase, 12/7/1941 - upgraded a B-17 group to B-29's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

The starting pools contain aircraft for many models that arrive (start production) in 42-01 or later. A list has been sent by email (cannot post PDF files here).

It is true - we do that on purpose. Is that a problem? There are technical reasons I use pools instead of production. My impression is you cannot use a plane before its date.


I'll test this if I can find a group that upgrades correctly.


In a word - 'yes' you can.

Orders phase, 12/7/1941 - upgraded a B-17 group to B-29's.

Not my intent! OK - we don't use pools for non starting planes!

You have a complete list in your in-box. Most of the pools are too small to allow an upgrade, but several are large enough to early dipping.

I did a closer look at japanese engine and aircraft production. There I found some serious problems (for the AI, a human player can adjust production to his needs)

- there are some (important) airplane types that are not produced at all: F1M2 FF, B5N2, Ki 84, Ki 46II, Ki 45 KAIb, (J2M2), (M6A1), (Ki 51)

- engine production is (completely) not in sync with needs:

- there are (far) to many Mitsubishi and Nakajima engines, there will be ~34000 Mitsubishi engines left at the end of the war
- Aichi engines and especialy Hitachi engines (Ki 43, G4M1..) are never (from the beginning) produced enough (in mid 1943 ~ 500 Hitachi engines are needed, only 80 being build)
- Ishikawajima (Ku 8, N1K1 FF, Ki 61II...), Mansyu (Ki 84), Kokusai (Ki 83) are not produced at all
- starting from the end of 1942 there will be a severe shortage (more than 100 engines deficit per month) of Kawasaki engines (D3A2, Ki 44)

As already said this is insignificant for a human player, but if the computer has to take the japanese side it will not be able (or is severly restricted) to replace losses or get even reinforcement airgroups for such important aircraft like B5N2, Ki 43, G4M1, D3A2 and Ki 84.

Version 2.24:

- Amagi torpedo bombers are still on the Unryu
- 14th Army (067) has 3" gun instead of infantry squad in weapon slot 2
- 6th JAAF division (093) has empty device 408 in slot one
- IJA (925) 9cm mortar regiment has only 30 support squads but 36 mortars
- Type 13 radar has still penetration 0, intentional?
- MAD still has penetration 500, intentional?
- G8N1 (030) has in weapon slot 7 device 000 10 times
- Nippo Maru airgroups (748/749) are still on Kimikawa Maru
- 5"/54 DP gun (061) upgrades to 4"/45 naval gun (037), is this correct?
- RTN Trad (817) has wrong arrival date (after being sunk) and port (Sasebo)
- RTN Rajong (821) is already sunk before arrival
- Mino Maru (826), Eijo Maru (827), Nimi Maru (962) have wrong entry in the sunk field
- formations in slot 1122 and 1125 have identical name (52nd Nav Gsn)

Here is my original post

The main point Is that we should just give the carriers what they had when they entered the map, then let the players mix and match as they want nb only 491 sea fire mk I - III were made ( david brown "Seafire the spitfire that went to sea" )

NB you should consider giving seafires drop tanks 1 x 45 galon for the mk II 1 x 90 gallon for the mk III

it gets a bit tricky if you dont let deck parks be in use it was the main way the Illustrious class boosted their airgroup

here is my original post

This has been the subject of some confusion in RN carriers. The primary difference between RN and USN practice is that until the end of 1941 the Royal Navy struck down all their aircraft into their hangers on landing without having permanent deck parks. This practice limited the aircraft capacity of the Illustrious Class Armoured carriers to the mid thirties.

However in late 1941 The Sea Hurricane Mark 1B was introduced, this aircraft had to be deck parked as without folding wings they would not fit the aircraft lifts of Illustrious class carriers. Usually they were placed on outriggers to supplement the normal aircraft compliment.

Thus In terms of actual capacity the maximum aircraft carried by an Illustrious Class carrier and still operate aircraft was 56, Victorious landed on Indomitable's CAP after Indomitable was damaged during Operation Pedestal in August 1942.

However in terms of Air groups usually carried in the Indian ocean in 1942 Illustrious class carriers tended to carry air groups of about 45, which gives them a maximum overload capacity of 52

Thus, I would give the Illustrious class carriers a capacity of 45 at game start


Indomitable had an additional 1/2 sized lower hanger deck and an enlarged forward lift so it could take unfolded aircraft into her hanger deck.
In 1942 Indomitable regularly carried an air group of 55 and I would leave that as an aircraft capacity, in practice as she changed from smaller British to larger US aircraft the air group reduced slightly so in 1945 she was operating about 50 aircraft.

Indefatigable class carriers had two hanger decks but were restricted in aircraft choice by low hanger decks it was these carriers which used Seafires in the Pacific in late 1944 and 1945

Maximum air groups of 81 were used in 1945 when Implacable had 48 Seafires on board.
Thus, I would put their Capacity at 72,

Hermes’s aircraft capacity is correct at 20



Aircraft

The royal navy was desperately seeking better fighters for the Fleet carriers trying to upgrade from the Fulmar. In 1942 they used two types of fighters to replace the Fulmar the Martlet and the Sea Hurricane, Interestingly small detachments of Fulmar was kept on board as a daytime search aircraft.

The Martlet (British version of the Wildcat with a different engine) was upgraded to latest models of wildcat then to the Hellcat in 1944,

The Sea Hurricane was upgraded to the Seafire by the end of 1942. The Seafire was itself replaced by Corsairs in early 1944 apart from the Indefatigable class carriers

In terms of strike aircraft, the progression is Swordfish, to Albacore, to Barracuda, to Avenger.

Fireflies were used on board Indefatigable class carriers.

Sea Hurricane

The Sea Hurricane variant used in the Far East was the Ib model
Which were armed with 8 mmgs. They featured added strengthening, naval radios and arrester gear, which added about a 1000 lbs. of weight to the aircraft (7400 lbs.) The aircraft usually carried 8 mg’s, there were also some Ic models produced with 4x20mm cannon however the added weight decreased performance further.

The sea hurricane was updated to its final incarnation the IIc in late 1942 this had a better engine and range (44 gallon drop tanks) However this model was mostly used on escort carriers in the Atlantic.

I suggest modelling the 1B for the game, as it was the one used in 1942 by the RN in the Indian Ocean. Modelling Ib performance is difficult as there were so many variations however I have taken The MK1 land based variant with the Merlin III engine then decreased its performance by the same ratio as the Sea Hurricane IIc to its land based cousin. My time to height figure is to 10,000 ft


Martlet

This was the name given to the Wildcat in RN service In 1942 the version used was the Martlet Which was basically the F4F4 with a different engine without the two stage supercharger, The Martlet remained in RN service until the Mk VI when the name was changed back to the US designation FM-2
Since we cannot Insert the Martlet in the game The easiest thing to do is to Use the F3 wildcat instead changing the upgrade path of the squadron to Corsair.


Seafire

One slot so many Seafires ….

Apart from the mark one, Seafires were differentiated by engine type with one being optimised for medium to high level performance and another type for low level performance

The Aircraft I am proposing is the L MK II / III the only substantial difference between the Marks is the introduction of folding wings in the Mk III.

I had the most trouble determining what its climb rate should be, Its initial climb rate was probably the highest in the game at 4600 ft / min from sea level to 5000 ft.

However the aircraft was optimised for low level performance so its later climbing ability was compromised so I’ve moved it down a bit.

The range of the Seafire is a bit of a pain as various attempts were used to get extra range from the Seafire. In late 1945, Both Indefatigable class carriers added (different) 90-gallon tanks to the Seafire to extend its range so it could accompany strike aircraft. Prior to that various types of external fuel tanks were used none of them very reliable.



Air group Composition


Indomitable

Enters in January 42

one squadron of Fulmar II’s 800 squadron,
one of Sea Hurricane Ib’s 880 squadron,
plus two squadrons of Albacores 827 and 831 Squadrons.
All these squadrons should have 12 aircraft except for 880 which had 9

She spent the next two months ferrying hurricanes to Java.

in April she then added A flight, 806 squadron with Fulmars. They were upgraded to Martlets, 50 of which arrived in India in april and may of 1942. The flight builds to squadron strength and replaces 800 squadron by May

However a detachment of 795 squadron continues flying a number of fulmars on board at various times and places, I think they were probably using them for daytime surface search which is what the Fulmar was intended for !




In August 1942 (when in real life she sailed to the Med) she then added another squadron of Sea hurricanes (800 squadron again) This is the point when she had her Largest Airgroup Which is 30 Sea Hurricanes and Martlets in three squadrons and 24 albacores

After bomb damage she was repaired and in 43 has a compliment of 40 seafire IIb’s 807 sqdn and 880 sqdn plus 15 albacores which rapidly converted to Barracuda’s 831 sqdn

After further refits and damage repair first the seafires were replaced with Hellcats late 44 and the barracudas with avengers in 45

She should end up with Hellcats the only british fleet carrier to have them.
Ending up with 29 hellcats and 21 avengers


Illustrious

Arrived Indian ocean in May 42,

18 swordfish in two squadrons 829 and 810 (829’s swordfish had ASV II)
881 squadron 18 martlets

in addition they get a detachment of 806 squadron in may fulmars which upgrade to martlets later in 1942. Aircraft complement 18 swordfish 21 martlets and 6 Fulmars May 42.
Again they kept a detachment of fulmars 796 det on board, not sure if this was to max out the number of fighters or to use the fulmar for day searches!
Ending up with 3 squadrons of Corsairs 36 a/c and one of avengers 15 a/c in 45.

Formidable

Identical to Illustrious with a single hanger deck. Arrived March 1942

Aircraft compliment

818 and 820 Squadron Albacore 1’s
888 squadron Martlets
803 squadron Fulmars which upgraded during 1942 to sea Hurricanes.




Hemes

Should have 12 Swordfish at start and a capacity of 20 maximum

Victorious

Enters game in early 43, was loaned to the US navy and operated in a task force with Saratoga in the Solomon’s.

Had 3 squadrons of Martlets, 24 aircraft, 896 898 and 882 squadrons
with one squadron of 12 avengers 832 squadron

However during operations carrier operated both Saratoga’s and her own fighters Around 60 aircraft apparently.

Indefatigable and Implacable

The only real British Fleet carriers I ve upgraded their post refit capacities to 72 as their actual maximum airgroup size was 81

In fact they only carried Seafire fighters as Corsairs were too large to fit in the hanger decks, and there was a shortage of Hellcats

I have put 24 Seafires on Indefatigable at start I hope this will grow to 48

Implacable starts the game with 48 Seafires.




























Consolidated database changes

Class Database 251 Illustrious capacity to 45
252 Indomitable capacity to 54
1392 Implacable capacity to 72

Sea Hurricane Ib Slot 77

Max speed 312 Maneuver 33 Max Load 100
Cruse speed 190 Durability 29 First Month 10
Climb rate 2485 Endurance 160 First Year 41
Max altitude 32000 Armour 1 Build Rate 10

Upgrade 078 (SEAFIRE)

Armament 8 x 303 Browning MG’s device 150 (no bombs)


Seafire L Mk III slot 78

Max speed 355 Maneuver 36 Max Load 500
Cruse speed 172 Durability 129 First Month 12
Climb rate 3500 Endurance 220 First Year 42
Max altitude 26000 Armour 1 Build Rate 20

Upgrade (Hellcat ) (note this changes to Corsair in Simple version)

Armament 2 x 20mm Hispano Cannon device 168
4 x 303 Browning MG device 150
1 x 500 lb GP bomb


Changed Barracuda upgrade path to 098 TBF avenger

AIR GROUPS

This is the crux of the matter I have Given you two versions Two versions. The simple version should be more realistic than the one currently in use by matrix and no trouble to implement

Simple version

Make only the above changes but have the seafire upgrade to Corsairs
(to be realistic dont upgrade the seafires on Indefatigable Class carriers)

you will end up with RN carriers made up with airgroups of Corsairs and Avengers with a few Firefly's and Seafires.... IE historical reality apart from the Hellcats aboard Indomidable





Complex Version

This tries to track the evolution of RN air groups through the war
Note the upgrade path for Seafire goes to Hellcat,

To be more or less accurate you should swap 803 squadron from Formidable to Indominable when it upgrades to Hellcats

Indominable

1819 - 800 squadron Fulmar Added ready 12 upgrade 77 (Sea Hurricane)
1820 - 880 squadron Sea hurricane ready 9 upgrade 78 (Seafire)
1821 - 827 squadron Albacores ready 24 Upgrade 96 (Barracuda)



Illustrious

1823 881 squadron Wildcat , Ready 21, upgrade to 89 (Corsair)
1824 829 squadron Albacores, Ready 18, upgrade to 96 (Barracuda)

Formidable

1829 888 Squadron, Wildcat, ready 12 upgrade 87 (Corsair)
1830 803 squadron, Fulmar, ready 12 Upgrade 76 (Sea Hurricane)
1831 820 Squadron Albacores, ready 18 Upgrade to 96 (Barracuda)

Hermes

1849 –814 a flight, Albacore ready 6 upgrade Albacore
1850 -814 b flight, Albacore ready 6 upgrade Albacore


Victorious

1817 896 squadron, martlets ready 24 upgrade 87 (Corsairs)
1818 832 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 12 no upgrade

Indefatigable

1826 896 squadron, Seafires ready 24 no upgrade
1827 1770 squadron, Firefly ready 12 no upgrade
1828 820 squadron, TBF Avenger ready 21

Implacable

1833 896 squadron, Seafires, ready 48 no upgrade
1834 1771 squadron, Fireflys, ready 12 no upgrade
1835 828 squadron, TBF Avenger, ready 21 no upgrade




I was working with Lemuriski’s modified scenario 26 I also modified Warspite Valiant and Queen Elizabeth, so that they should have 20 x 4.5 “ secondary armament rather than the 6” & 4” taken out in 1938 –1940 .

I will Mail the the database to anyone interested.


I reccomend the Fleet Air Arm Archive website, I've taken a lot of details about aircraft performance from

"Hawker Hurricane"
"Wings over the Sea"
"Seafire, The spitfire that went to sea"


NB Hawker Hurricanes Range

Hurricane Mark II's had provision for 2 45 gallon drop tanks that doubled its range in action. Adequate supplies of these did not reach the Far East until early 1943 after which they were used extensively, especially for Hurricane recconassance units.

_____________________________

"Gefechtwendung nach Steuerbord"

NB cid the aircraft capacity for the varrious carriers should be 36 for Illustrious, Victorious, and Formidable, 45 for Indomidable, 72 for indefatigable and Implacable

Without deck parks !!!