Matrix Games Forums

Geographically your position is enviable, IMHO. [8D]

Hehe, don´t worry about the pools. Or rather get used to worrying about it. They are still giving me heartaches in my game. I´m hoping 11/44 will change that. [:D]

IMO, Until you get Corsairs in 1/43 and probably until 4/43 when the Hellcat arrives its Tojo time. And Tojo rules the sky. So hunker down, stay on CAP and train, train, train. Besides the P40 in the game sucks for anything but training anyway!

Have I mentioned how I hate the P40? [:D]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Bullwinkle58

... I constantly have to do internal mental health adjustments, keep telling myself this will pass. ...

I'm pretty sure some of the hot sauces discussed in Canoerebel's AAR of late will take your mind off the aircraft pools ... [;)]

For a Minnesotan I can take some spice. By Texas standards I'm a wimp. [:)]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Geographically your position is enviable, IMHO. [8D]

It is, plus I have some things going on I haven't talked about here. I have, to be truthful, gotten very used to having places like Soerbaja for yards and subs. It looks like he's going for that base for fuel and because it's closer to his good bases in the PI and Babeldebob, but he really, really needs to address PBang if he wants to survive HI-wise. If I can get an intact 32nd ID in there with what's already in residence, plus Forts 6, I think he's on borrowed time. The current level of naval ops, with Yamato and Akagi tearing around, is eating fuel. Ops down as far as Baker/Canton do too.

SNAGGLEPUSS, when I can get it underway, is partly designed to force him to burn fuel.

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Hehe, don´t worry about the pools. Or rather get used to worrying about it. They are still giving me heartaches in my game. I´m hoping 11/44 will change that. [:D]

IMO, Until you get Corsairs in 1/43 and probably until 4/43 when the Hellcat arrives its Tojo time. And Tojo rules the sky. So hunker down, stay on CAP and train, train, train. Besides the P40 in the game sucks for anything but training anyway!

Have I mentioned how I hate the P40? [:D]

The P-40E is my go-to fighter right now. I love the little bastids! With drop tanks they can cross wide expanses of ocean; Wildcats can't right now. I just followed some of Nemo's advice and moved several from safe CAP locations behind the lines up to where the fun is. Makes me a little nervous but I did have 60 or so on easy duty. We'll see if it helps.

I haven't seen Tojos, thank goodness. We're playing with non-historic R&D, so I expect wonder planes any day. So far so good though.

I have had success with the Warhawks myself. I normally employ them at 17-20m feet as top cover with Aerocobras getting most of the kills circling below at 14-16m feet. When I have the luxury of the three tier CAP there is often penetration into the bombers.

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I have had success with the Warhawks myself. I normally employ them at 17-20m feet as top cover with Aerocobras getting most of the kills circling below at 14-16m feet. When I have the luxury of the three tier CAP there is often penetration into the bombers.

+1
The P40E is capable if kept within its best maneuver band [up to 15K] and not outnumbered by the enemy fighters. Pilots MUST have 65+ Defensive skill.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Bullwinkle58

... I constantly have to do internal mental health adjustments, keep telling myself this will pass. ...

I'm pretty sure some of the hot sauces discussed in Canoerebel's AAR of late will take your mind off the aircraft pools ... [;)]

I reflected on this some more after a 5-mile hike with GOTP. (Really! No foolin'!)

I titled my last daily post as I did to reflect something I've heard young mothers say about their babies when they're sick. (". . . both ends") I would be impressed if said infant had the trouble in question due to excessive pepper consumption. But I would not put that past a Texas Baby. [:'(]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I have had success with the Warhawks myself. I normally employ them at 17-20m feet as top cover with Aerocobras getting most of the kills circling below at 14-16m feet. When I have the luxury of the three tier CAP there is often penetration into the bombers.

The penalty to go above 15,000 is pretty steep. I do it, but I've never been sure where the break-even is on bounce versus band. I do love Cobras at either 5000 or 10,000. They eat TBs for lunch if they can get past the Zeros.

I actually prefer the Cobras over the P40. Felt like they did somewhat better. But they never went up against the Tojo as frequent as the P40 did. The P40 did good up until the Tojo arrived. At the point they just became free kills for the Jap. I had times when I lost 50 or more P40s for just 2-3 Tojos. My opponent wisely used high alt massed Tojo sweeps getting the dive on my P40s and just wrecking them. Losing a month worth of replacement in one set of sweeps was not uncommon. Eventually I just had to withdraw outside sweep range and stay there unless it was vital to put a CAP up.

Needless to say I´m not too sympathetic right now towards Erik when he moans about the P47! [:D]

I think a monumental shift in the air war happened once I managed to get Corsairs in decent numbers. I could then for the first time not only face up against the Tojo but also start doing offensive missions (sweeps). When the Hellcat arrived I was really helped to have some LBA based squadrons to help with sheer numbers as the Corsairs were just too few.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




I did a forum search on this as I am nobody's expert on CAP. Many threads going back to 2009. For what I can best tell drop-tanks add fatigue to CAP pilots at a faster rate, but do not hinder dogfighting. They give more range (what I was after) at the cost of the supplies. Dropping the tanks is presumed I think. What I've never been totally clear on is how the CAP range influences combat passes, range needed for the attack to "burn through." In a turn-based game I don't think the RL loiter time advantage comes into it, but I could be wrong.

But it's an excellent question.

It seems to me that loiter time depends on how many hexes short of "extended range" the CAP is working. If the drop tank adds two hexes to that range and the CAP only goes one hex further, it will have more loiter time. If the CAP goes all the way to maximum extended range with drop tanks, it will have the same meagre loiter time as CAP without drop tanks operating to their max extended range. When you reach "bingo fuel", you gotta head back, even if you just got there!

I agree with that in theory, but inside the turn there's no "time." There's only 12-hour phases, plus asset interactions which consume ops points. There's no way to know if the incoming bombers are in hour-one of the phase or hour-seven. I "think" all drop tanks get you is the range, and it's range for the whole phase until ops point consumption makes the CAP head home.

I think. If Lobaron is reading I'd appreciate a weigh-in.

Sorry, bit late to the discussion.

At first, please note that CAP IS (one of) the most diffuse game aspects, because it is severely abstracted.

To understand the air engine, we have to detach a bit from the RL concept of a plane taking off, flying to a destination, shooting at stuff, RTB, and landing. This does not happen in WitP.

What I believe CAP to be is someting funnily similar to a certain aspect of quantum physics. [;)] As long as you do not perform a measurment (e.g. the strike) the particle (e.g. the CAP) has no location or quantity.

What I want to say with this is, you cannot view CAP as planes taking of for the morning patrol, while other fighters get into readiness status, when no strike arrives during the loiter time of an element it lands, gets replaced by the readiness unit and another element gets into readiness, and so on.
The game abstracts this. In fact, as long as no combat takes place, nothing is there except a default formula that calculates op points loss, plane op losses, fatigue gain,...over target based on a number of variables including your settings.

When combat takes place, everything pops into existence. The air engine calculatesthe number of planes able to reach intercept based on a large ammount of variables. Already spent op points, detection range, cruise speeds, altitude, weather, airframe readiness, plane element situation and availability, range from base of origin,....everything that is required to initiate combat calculations and animations. When combat is initiated, this leads to continuousely updated (abstracted) status information on airframe and pilots.

A CAP that intercepts a strike on a target 2 hexes away from base of origin loses planes and pilots (to op points, combat, op losses, fatigue,...). If another strike arrives over base of origin (the CAP homebase) this leads to those losses resulting in planes and pilots being unavailable for interception (i imagine a temp DB assigning values to airframes, but in trith I really have no idea on how this information is processed). In game engine terms, before the "first" strike nothing happened, at all. And the "second" strike (on the homebase) holds no information about the reason for planes and pilots being unavailable (we know that, abstracted, it was the fault of the "first" strike) and the whereabouts of those planes in a RL sense, just that the aren´t here.

The Elf once said a somthing very important when thinking about all that stuff: "There is no air in the game." I might add, as you already discussed, there is also no time.

I pretty much agree on what both you and BBfanboy suspect with regards to how time is treated. The concept of time between phases is not existing in a conventional sense. But the game uses certain variables and dice rolls to still introduce time as a factor, but not with the RL "flow" of time.

There is a percieved "before" and "after" in a relational sense. Take as an example a sweep of several squadrons arriving over enemy base. The initial sweep usually meets the stiffest resistance, and the first, and hen each following wave weaken the CAP as planes get damaged and begin to use up what you define as "op points". So you could see this developement over a combat phase as an abstraction of the flow of time.

There also is a time to target (detection range / strike cruise speed), and this time to target value is used in intercept calculations.

Directly related to this there is the time to intercept calculations. I am not referring to those in the combat report (they can be misleading as they tell you nothing about averages, but only about the single last plane of a squad), but to the time to intercept for every plane element on CAP misison. On those calculations climb rate, cruise speed, current situation (e.g. scrambling or airborne), come into play.

Now, if the target hex is different from the base of origin, range comes into play.
Two things are replicable from my experience: Airframe range increase availability over target, drop tanks increase availability over target. (As a sidenote, drop tanks do not negatively influence combat performance or pilot fatigue as long as range to target is the same as without DT.)

Could write more but I feel for the sake of personal security I now have to log and do the stuff I have promised to do... [8D]

Interesting discussion and good AAR. [:)]

edit: doublepost

LoBaron, thanks for the visit and long input/explanation. Combined with Alfred's inputs I now have a 180-degree different understanding of CAP. Woe betide the newbie if, after ten years, I was so wrong-headed.

The key for me was Alfred's initial point that there is no CAP mission in the game (paraphrased.) CAP is what's left after the escorts do their business. Since I have been nearly a year real-time with short-legged fighters and 4Es that can mostly defend themselves, I have done almost no escorting. I had come to think of the escort button AS the CAP button and comingled range and drop tank mechanisms in incorrect ways.

Thanks again. And hang around. [:)]

June 18, 1942

Whackiness

What happens when a ground-pounder runs a navy? [:)]

A lot happened all over the place today, but a lot of it was minor. Just going to hit the highlights so my DSL can get back to downloading Steam games.

1) Main focus today was on eastern Java. The BB-led TF near Batavia yesterday was last seen heading east. The Sunda area was calm. I think that effort was done to ease the passing of the TF that went through the strait and has not been reseen.

The Air TF containing Akagi and Yamato was last seen heading east. This made sense to me. Akagi's air wing was knocked around pretty badly. She took some hits. Yamato used some ammo, and reloads are not available locally. The Long Lance cupboard was pretty bare. So it made sense to leave. The landing TF had a lot of good DDs and were right there at an undefended Banjo.

At Soerbaja I had only the two CLs (Perth and Marblehead), a slow APD, and a CA with 33 flooding and 12 system that could only make 21 knots. What to do? Figuring the DDs would be rough and wanting to drown at least some of 5th ID I bit the bullet and included the CA. More and bigger guns might matter. Good plan. Except the Akagi/Yamato DIDN'T leave! Who does that?!

Day Time Surface Combat, near Banjoewangi at 57,107, Range 25,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Shell hits 3
CS Nisshin
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
BB Yamato, Shell hits 1
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 1
DD Kazegumo
DD Oshio
DD Inazuma

Allied Ships
CA Australia, Shell hits 19, heavy fires
CL Perth
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 1
APD Barker, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

One of the hits on Akagi was a penetrating tower hit. Should be some fires from that one. In total I got off light. Australia was a gonner no matter what though, but including her let the CLs off lighter. And then, later on the way home, the #$!%* Magic Mavis Corps came calling. One P-40e leaked over from Soerbaja, but these lumbering beasts seem to be immune to AA. When I get in range of the HI that factory is at the top of the burn-down list.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Banjoewangi at 57,107

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
H6K4 Mavis x 11

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Australia, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
APD Barker, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

2) There is some other kind of carrier TF SE of here. It's flying Zeros, Jakes, and Kates. Near Flores I. It made several raids, one on CA Australia which missed, and a Kate strike on xAKL Lepus which hit.

3) Strato Oscars from Borneo work over Soerbaja CAP pretty badly, downing 7 for 1. Not much I can do there.

4) PBang is blasted as badly as yesterday. At least eight major attacks. In one the combat report listed 50 damaged B-17s when there are about 12 total at the base, and half were out attacking a DD in the Malacca Strait. (4000 feet, no hits, 2 damaged oh HR mavens.) Couple of dozen Japanese planes destroyed or damaged. I shouldn't be so lackadaisical about PBang, but I am I guess. Can't move them, can't defend them. Whenever this stops I can fix the AF in three days or so. A lot of what's being lost are very obsolete models, but some aren't. I have Merak, Oosthaven, and Batavia for CAP when and if I get the 32nd ID close. In the meantime it's just a beat-down. It happens.

5) About 2000 men of the 5th ID get ashore at Banjo and take the base. A (-) on disruption and a lot of the division is still afloat. Will the Akagi TF hang around again? Will I be crazy enough to send in my last two CLs? Stay tuned.

6) Baker I. is bombarded by the BB Hyuga TF; 88 casualties. He can see two Marine Raider Battalions in the report, but there are three there plus a civilian engineering unit that withdraws in two weeks. If he wants Baker it will take a lot more than an SNLF or a Naval Guard.

7) S-39 sinks a PB in the Malacca Strait. The sub/ASW population is very high in here, and so far the subs are winning.

8) Japan attacks Chengtu again, wearing it down.

Ground combat at Chengtu (75,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 101202 troops, 824 guns, 861 vehicles, Assault Value = 3634

Defending force 34942 troops, 181 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1097

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Japanese adjusted assault: 2452

Allied adjusted defense: 1327

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
6804 casualties reported
Squads: 98 destroyed, 487 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 44 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 61 disabled
Vehicles lost 28 (4 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3084 casualties reported
Squads: 26 destroyed, 401 disabled
Non Combat: 41 destroyed, 153 disabled
Engineers: 49 destroyed, 39 disabled
Guns lost 50 (1 destroyed, 49 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
70th Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Indpt Infantry Regiment
24th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
36th Division
58th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
37th Division
26th Engineer Regiment
20th Recon Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
41st Division
12th Indpt Infantry Regiment
2nd Ind.Mixed Regiment
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
60th Division
28th Engineer Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
22nd/C Division
5th Army
1st Army
11th Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
7th Chinese Corps
3rd Construction Regiment
3rd Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
2nd Construction Regiment
21st Group Army
5th Chinese Base Force
10th Chinese Base Force
39th Chinese Corps
13th Group Army
1st War Area
1st Construction Regiment

Bullwinkle58-

I have only played war board games with hexes. I am new to Matrix Games.

I have been reading your thread for days. I'm up to page 22.

I just wanted to thank you for all your posts regarding your war with that pesky 1eyedjack!

You write very well and it is fun reading the progression of the war.

I will try to get current with your war report as soon as possible.

-Rio Bravo

Thank you and welcome. [:)]

We've been playing almost a year real time but are still in Allied dark times.

This why there's a set of folks who prefer 2 day turns for PBEM. Not saying it's an obvious decision, there are pros and cons.

ORIGINAL: erstad

We've been playing almost a year real time but are still in Allied dark times.

This why there's a set of folks who prefer 2 day turns for PBEM. Not saying it's an obvious decision, there are pros and cons.

I'm playing an AI game in parallel in 2-days. Very big trade-offs when carriers meet. But I'd think hard about it next time in PBEM.

Reference: Steve's post regarding Chesty Puller (Post #1007; page 33 of this thread).

At the Chosin Resivor, Korea, via radio, Chesty Puller was advised that his regiment of Marines of the 1st Marine Division, were surrounded by seven Chinese Divisions. Chesty responded, "The bastards can't get away from us this time."

In 1971, when I was in boot camp at MCRD San Diego, every night when the lights went out, in unison, Platoon 1090 chanted, "Goodnight Chesty Puller, wherever you are?"

Yep, I'm catching up, on page 33 now. Soon it will be "Howdy Doody Time" and I'll be current with the brawl between Bullwinkle and 1eyedjack.

-Terry
LCpl, USMC, retired

June 19, 1942

Time To Go

1) Pounded by overwhelming force at sea and in the air I think it's time for the naval defense of Java to end. My task now is to try to get the scraps, primarily Support ships, out. Probably the only way is to try the Sunda route.

Last two CLs at Soerbaja do try to run in on Banjo and hurt the landing force. A surface TF, less Akagi and Yamato, intercepts. CL Marblehead is lost. DD Shirayuki takes two shells, but one is massive explosive damage. She might sink. Five Dutch PTs also go at the surface force, but nothing hits. Finally, several subs take a turn. No hits, but S-40 experiences 12 hits, one penetrating. She'll be in trouble.

In the air, massive Oscar sweeps at 38,500 take down Soerbaja's CAP, allowing Magic Mavis to sink three coastal minesweepers without a single CAP pass.

The carriers down near Flores move into to the SE of Java's west coast. Kaga is confirmed to be the Kate-carrier. Its air strike fails.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Soerabaja at 56,104

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 73 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
B5N1 Kate x 6
D3A1 Val x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 6 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Perth
PT TM-11
PT TM-13
PT TM-10

The Dutch get up 5 Beests escorted by 3 Hawks. Five planes lost, no hits. Banshees high and B-17s low at 4000 feet hit nothing. (Maybe I need an HR requiring B-17s to stay above 10,000 because they're, ya know, TOO accurate?) Various and sundry attacks on Soerbaja and PBang cost Japan some planes for some more AF damage. Everything that could move was railed from PBang to Oosthaven to hide today. I think I will fly out whatever can repair until the heat is lower. Or forever, depending.

Japan has shoved five gaggles of icons into the IO side of Java. I expect landing on the open coastline at Djakarta, etc. and use of the rails. Standard. Nothing is defended but Soerbaja, Batavia, and Merak, a bit. Java will delay as long as it can. My main worry right now is getting 32nd ID into PBang. And making life interesting elsewhere. Not going to talk about that yet.

2) In an almost comic footnote, Liberators ordered to hit the Oil at Urmachi in far northern China finally fly and do 7 hits. This river valley has eaten far more Japanese effort than it's worth for the oil it has. Even now the Urmachi refugees are marching south, severing the road.

3) Various bombing in Burma and China, Prome swept, Bassein attack progrsses, Big Stack moves a mile, USS Herring is mauled at Marcus I. after missing. Normal day.