Matrix Games Forums

Each of you is doing a defensive mission with CAP vs LRCAP. So, there will be limited interactions between them. When your strike aircraft come in they face all that CAP without benefit from its own escorts. In most games, not this one, players use PWHEX files to restrict stacking of ground units. In late war we see 1000 plus planes or so in a hex. IMO, that is very unrealistic. The game engine is getting overwhelmed and I don't see an easy solution.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Each of you is doing a defensive mission with CAP vs LRCAP. So, there will be limited interactions between them. When your strike aircraft come in they face all that CAP without benefit from its own escorts. In most games, not this one, players use PWHEX files to restrict stacking of ground units. In late war we see 1000 plus planes or so in a hex. IMO, that is very unrealistic. The game engine is getting overwhelmed and I don't see an easy solution.

The 430+ A6M8 were in an escort role form the KB. So they should have taken on the CAP. The real issue for me is that the 2 groups that actually flew weren't protected by the massive escort or the powerful LR CAP. I get why to an extent, but the combat before the CAP got to them while the A6M8 hit the CAP should have been a lot longer. It's like the cooperating sweep issue, when combat just ends after 10 passes.

I've used LR CAP before in the endgame, and had it used extensively against me. Planes do usually interact a LOT with the LR CAP. I think the extra element here was the KB planes.

I wish we could have stacking limits for the ground war, but alas, it's a scen 1 game and by the time Dan took over that would have been a mess to figure out.

It isn't a game engine problem.
 
The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.
 
Alfred

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You don't give a lot of information to draw conclusions from, but:

+1, I totally with agree with Alfred. I have constantly seen this happen.

And, not mentioned yet, is that the local commanders on a Carrier task force send what they feel is an appropriate strike package against the targets identified. An alpha strike against carriers or battleships, but far less against merchant shipping which explains to me why the large strike group didn't take off -- recon did not spot targets worthy of an Alpha Strike.

Also, I have often seen under-performance on complicated raids where there is a lot of coordination/cooperation from diverse bases. I have attributed this to planes loitering to join up. It is most noticeable to me on large cooperative sweeps that end quickly and often with few losses.

The mixture of LRCAP with escorts with lots of different types of fighters seem to cause under performance. Especially true when the LRCAP has altitude settings different than the strike package altitude. I have gotten to calling them close escort (everyone set to the same altitude) to far escort (diverse altitude).

I posted some comments this week on loiter in this thread:
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3942516&mpage=1&key=&#4403204
 
The comments in that thread and even more so those in the linked thread I provided go to the nub of the issue here.  Although both threads dealt with other air issues not directly germane to obvert's current issue, my comments on loiter and endurance actually go to the heart of on time station combat.
 
Putting aside all the variables which are inputs into the fighter to fighter air combat algorithms, the length of combat is largely determined by two factors:
 

• the maximum number of combat passes
• loiter time

 
When AE first shipped out the maximum number of combat passes was 200.  That number was increased by michaelm to 300 following complaints.  As the combat passes deals with flights, each flight having more than 1 aircraft, more than 300 planes can be involved in combat.  This however is the maximum possible with the actual number of combat passes usually being much less after all the relevant variables come into play.
 
The "loiter" time (actually the term is really only appropriate for the defensive CAP, offensive operations don't really loiter but a similar determination is used to determine how long they can be in combat before having to RTB) can really reduce the length of participation.
 
The basic point of all this is that all changes made to the AE air combat model were specifically intended to reduce the unrealistic humungus sized air battles of classical WITP.  It was not the norm in the PTO for hundreds of fighters to be involved in A2A combat on a daily basis at a single location; let alone the daily multiple locations which often occur in PBEMs.
 
As a result of the AE changes, players who insist on these unrealistic humungus packages will often find that a large part of their assembled force will largely sit idly by with minimal, if any, participation in combat.  Yet the supply consumption (plus pilot and airframe fatigue etc) will be incurred even if they did not participate in combat.  Striking at maximum range will exacerbate the "problem" as it will reduce the "loiter" time.
 
Alfred 

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

Probably correct and this fight may have just been a "one off" that was the result of a number of factors. However I frequently use LRCAP as bomber escort and do it at long ranges. I find that the LRCAP will get involved very nicely even at drop tank range. However, there are occasions-even in the same turn when LRCAP will show up and fight for one unit and not appear when a later unit flys in. This does seem to be a factor of range but I really have not tested it. And, have yet to fight an air battle as large as the one here.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You may have missed that I mentioned the A6M8 were on escort duty, not LR CAP. So they flew at strike distance which was 6 hexes with drop tanks.

The other LR CAP was from many bases as can be seen in the shot with the many red lines. Some of them were farther, but Wakkanai was not too far.

While you say this is too far, I can sweep from Sapporo at max range and actually get a full combat in (as long as the sweeps don't cooperate, in which case it's much shorter and results in almost no losses fro either side)

I realise it's messing with the limits of the engine, but I have to strike, so I've got to find ways that can optimise the fighters I have while getting bombers through. Neither happened that turn, so back to the drawing board.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You don't give a lot of information to draw conclusions from, but:

+1, I totally with agree with Alfred. I have constantly seen this happen.

And, not mentioned yet, is that the local commanders on a Carrier task force send what they feel is an appropriate strike package against the targets identified. An alpha strike against carriers or battleships, but far less against merchant shipping which explains to me why the large strike group didn't take off -- recon did not spot targets worthy of an Alpha Strike.

Yes, I had lots of search in addition to the recon, but it was probably interfered with enough by the CAP to make my detection lousy. He also had a zillion TFs sitting at Shikuka, likely for these reasons.

Also, I have often seen under-performance on complicated raids where there is a lot of coordination/cooperation from diverse bases. I have attributed this to planes loitering to join up. It is most noticeable to me on large cooperative sweeps that end quickly and often with few losses.

The mixture of LRCAP with escorts with lots of different types of fighters seem to cause under performance. Especially true when the LRCAP has altitude settings different than the strike package altitude. I have gotten to calling them close escort (everyone set to the same altitude) to far escort (diverse altitude).

I've made some of this work before. And I've had some of it used effectively against me. I have to look back one day when I have time and check some old combat reports.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.  In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.  Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

Probably correct and this fight may have just been a "one off" that was the result of a number of factors. However I frequently use LRCAP as bomber escort and do it at long ranges. I find that the LRCAP will get involved very nicely even at drop tank range. However, there are occasions-even in the same turn when LRCAP will show up and fight for one unit and not appear when a later unit flys in. This does seem to be a factor of range but I really have not tested it. And, have yet to fight an air battle as large as the one here.

Vertical range is also a factor. The LR CAP will dive onto lower CAP and hit it, and not make it back up to help sweeps for instance. Or help a sweep and not make it down for the strikes. Then show up again for another sweep.

I've used LR CAP at very long ranges as well, and it is less predictable, but this was simply an odd combo of outcomes.

Gotta see what else I've got up my sleeves! [:D]

I neither overlooked the fact the A6M8 were on an escort mission nor that they were using drop tanks.  Without drop tanks they could not reach Shikuka.
 
Nor have I emphasised the nature of the missions involved for that is not particularly germane other than in my comment that loiter time is a concept much more applicable to defensive missions rather than offensive missions.  Both CAP and LRCAP are defensive missions whereas a sweep is an offensive mission.  Nevertheless it is the range of the individual aircraft models rather than the type of mission undertaken which is the more determinative factor.
 
There has to be a minimum amount of combat involved in an offensive mission undertaken by a single air unit else the possibility would arise of a sweep arriving and then almost immediately breaking off because it's "loiter" time had been quickly expended.  You can imagine the howls of player complaints which would ensue if a single unit sweep arrived and almost immediately broke off contact with the enemy.  When multiple air units are involved in an offensive mission the impact of "loiter" on the length of combat will not be so obvious to the player.
 
It is not easy for a player to keep track of the total number of combat passes which occurred.  What may seem to be a full combat could still fall well short of the theoretical maximum number of combat passes.
 
Let's not forget the other relevant considerations for length of combat.  Pilots RTB early when morale fails.  Multiple planes can RTB from a morale failure even though they were not engaged in combat.  As noted by others, climb rates is another relevant factor.
 
By this stage of the war, generally speaking Japanese fighters are shorter ranged than Allied fighters.  This is true whether drop tanks are or are not used.  With drop tanks, at normal range the A6M8 was using up 85.7% of its range just to get to Shikuka.  The F6F-3 and F6F-5 Hellcat models would be using up 75% and 60% respectively of their range if they were undertaking a similar ranged operation.  It is obvious that the Hellcat has a much greater buffer which will translate, ceteris paribus, into a longer "loiter" time and longer combat participation.  This Allied benefit of longer legged fighters becomes more obvious with LBA such as Lightnings and Mustangs.  It is really only the Oscar which remains in the range race with the Allied fighters.
 
Obvert has to fight with the assets (units, models, locations etcs) he possesses.  Means he has to be more precise in how he tailors his actions to maximise their strengths and minimises their weaknesses respectively.  Simply ascribing the issue to engine failure is not the right approach, particularly when it is WAD.  Just lumping everything together into a humungus package is not guaranteed to produce optimal results. 
 
Alfred

We've had a bit of a hiatus in the past few days. The family here was getting over jet lag and I had to get antibiotics for a chest infection. Not so fun.

In addition, now, once I got back into it all and was running the latest turn, my laptop crashed. I lost that and to top it off it looks like it’s toast. No sign of life.

So … I need to figure out what to do next. I’ll try to get bootcamp and Windows going on my Mac finally and play on there if possible. If that doesn’t work I’ll need to get another game laptop. It might a day or two before I can get this going again.

That machine is the only one I’ve played WITP and WITP:AE on, so it was due a retirement!! It served me well! [&o]

I just wish I’d put it out to pasture in a planned way instead of unexpectedly seeing it topple over and die.

And right after Christmas! An opportunity lost [:D]

I know that various people on the forums use Parallels on Mac for WITP-AE (and the new Intel Monkey).

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

And right after Christmas! An opportunity lost [:D]

Haha!!

Hopefully it won't cost me anything, just a lot of logistics figuring out how to configure for windows running on a Mac.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I know that various people on the forums use Parallels on Mac for WITP-AE (and the new Intel Monkey).

I'm going to give it a shot. I'm sure I'll post some questions.

Looks like I might be able to get Bootcamp and Windows installed early next week.

[font="Times New Roman"]June 21-25, 1944[/font]

---

We've played a few turns since the big strike on Shikuka. The Allies are now starting to chip away at Allied industry with 4E, and especially low level B-29 strikes.

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

Dan is good at varying targets, varying day/night strikes, and really hasn't had to work too hard to get some significant results in the past week. I feel my only chance to turn the tide is to hit Shikuka itself with bombardments, but that is also fraught with difficulty. Firstly, I can't seem to get a good enough level of search to "show" the combat ships present so planes will fly to target them. Second, I'll have to negotiate many subs, surely a lot of mines and PT boats, and then the SCTFs present.

So. If the KB can't hit these TFs, what can I do? I may have to take this in clear stages. I know my ASW assets can hit subs, so I may have to reduce the numbers lots of air ASW and some surface forces very close to Shikuka. I may also have to send in fast Es and DDs to see if they can take out the PT boats, or some of them. I also may have to send the entire remaining IJN surface fleet to Shikuka when I do strike to ensure something hits the base, then plan to sacrifice the IJAAF 2E bombing fleet to try to add to whatever damage the IJN can inflict.

This is going to be a long process I know. I can sacrifice the IJN surface fleet if it can close Shikuka and then I can keep it shut. I cannot lose the KB, of course. So if Shikuka can be closed then I can continue to work on it, and whatever 700 ships are in port, the 4Es on the airfield, and hopefully reduce supply as well.

I need to force the USN to return with the CVs before he can repair the damaged from the last battle.
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 21, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 14

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 6 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Resources hits 49

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 4 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 5 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Resources hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 21 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 7

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged

Resources hits 23

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 22, 1944
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Night Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 10

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 1 damaged
Liberator B.III: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 26
Fires 4680

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet *
City Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator GR.III x 5

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 28
Fires 17062

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator GR.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 250 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 54

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 639
Fires 363300

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Uruppu-jima , at 130,52

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 25
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 34

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Prome (55,50)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 111716 troops, 1036 guns, 937 vehicles, Assault Value = 3363

Defending force 293052 troops, 4434 guns, 5432 vehicles, Assault Value = 5344

Japanese ground losses:
345 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 34 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (6 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Assaulting units:
55th Division
3rd RTA Division
5th Division
31st Division
4th RTA Division
1st Tank Division
2nd Division
24th Ind.Mixed Brigade
14th Division
6th RTA Division
11th Air Defense AA Regiment
43rd Const Co
5th Mortar Battalion
15th Const Co
13th RF Gun (Pack) Battalion
18th Army
23rd AA Regiment
12th Air Defense AA Battalion
69th Field AA Battalion
44th Ind.AA Gun Co
53rd Field AA Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
51st Field AA Battalion
1st RF Gun Battalion
50th Field AA Battalion
4th RF Gun Battalion
11th Air Defense AA Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
36th JNAF AF Unit

Defending units:
254th Armoured Brigade
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
27th Infantry Division
40th Infantry Division
29th British Brigade
Americal Infantry Division
268th Motorised Brigade
23rd Indian Division
6th Australian Division
255th Indian Tank Brigade
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
5th Indian Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
39th Indian Division
41st Infantry Division
193rd Tank Battalion
14th Indian Division
32nd Infantry Division
7th Australian Division
754th Tank Battalion
2nd British Division
3rd Cavalry Regiment
14th Army Engineer Battalion
81st (West African) Division
9th Australian Division
19th Indian Division
26th Indian/A Division
26th Indian/B Division
26th Indian/C Division
IV Indian Corps
30th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
175th USAAF Base Force
XXXIII Indian Corps
20th Indian Heavy AA Regiment
1st West African AA Regiment
223rd Field Artillery Battalion
23rd AA Bde
8th Mahratta AT Gun Regiment
X' Force
197th Coast AA Regiment
77th Coast AA Regiment
208th Coast AA Regiment
16th Indian Heavy AA Regiment
XXXIII Corps RIASC Base Force
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
1st RM Heavy AA Regiment
31st Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
122nd British AT Gun Regiment
I/14th Army RIASC Base Force
96th Coast AA Regiment
Southeast Asia
70th Coast AA Regiment
85th British AT Gun Regiment
78th Coast AA Regiment
205th Coast AA Regiment
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
858th Engineer Aviation Battalion


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 55,51 (near Prome)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 60741 troops, 573 guns, 948 vehicles, Assault Value = 2036

Defending force 107190 troops, 948 guns, 492 vehicles, Assault Value = 3117

Japanese ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
227 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Assaulting units:
48th Division
2nd Tank Division
18th Tank Regiment
14th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
18th Division
79th Brigade
7th RTA Division
52nd Field AA Battalion
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co
16th AA Regiment
2nd Medium Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
70th Field AA Battalion
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
32nd Air Defense AA Battalion
60th Field AA Battalion
7th RF Gun Battalion
9th RF Gun Battalion
10th RF Gun Battalion

Defending units:
5th Chinese Corps
23rd Chindit Brigade
50th Indian Para Brigade
1st New Chinese Corps
Guides Cavalry Regiment
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
46th Indian Brigade
25th Indian Division
14th Chindit Brigade
6th Chinese Corps
2nd Indian AA Bde
8th Medium Regiment
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
33rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment


[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 23, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 192 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 57 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 34
Ki-84a Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 5 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 52
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 29
Ki-84a Frank x 23
Ki-100-I Tony x 10

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 6 damaged
F4F-7 Wildcat: 2 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1P Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 115 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 142
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 26
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 71
Ki-84a Frank x 22

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 5 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 28 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 8 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 41 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.III: 3 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 9 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1P Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
F-5A Lightning: 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 20

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 97 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 37
Ki-84a Frank x 16

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 6 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 6 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
F-5A Lightning: 1 damaged
F-5A Lightning: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 6 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5A Catalina: 3 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Nagaoka , at 114,58

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 8
Ki-100-I Tony x 11

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 13
B-29-1 Superfort x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 1 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 8 damaged

Ki-84b Frank factory hits 5
N1K2-J George factory hits 17

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
50th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
51st Sentai with Ki-100-I Tony (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
246th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
265 Ku S-2 with J2M3 Jack (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead

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Morning Air attack on Nagaoka , at 114,58

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 49 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 7
Ki-100-I Tony x 9

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Ki-46-III Dinah factory hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 24, 1944
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Night Air attack on Ominato , at 119,54

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 29

Allied aircraft
Liberator GR.III x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator GR.III bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 250 lb GP Bomb

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Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 33
Fires 14375

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Night Air attack on Bihoro , at 123,51

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 3
Fires 18720

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 13 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Manpower hits 11
Fires 25920

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 161 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 48 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-84a Frank x 38

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 174 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 52 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 25
Ki-84a Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35000 feet

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 25, 1944
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Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 41,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 3
J2M3 Jack x 34
N1K1 Rex x 6
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 3
J2M3 Jack x 17
N1K1 Rex x 4
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 35

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 14 damaged

Oil hits 11
Resources hits 5
Light Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 33 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 1
J2M3 Jack x 12
N1K1 Rex x 3
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak


Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 3
N1K1 Rex x 2
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 44

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
F4U-1A Corsair x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 27

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 2
F4U-1A Corsair x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

On the 20th the Allied CV fleets get under ASW from the Aleutians before the subs could catch them. I will send in a few, but most will hunt in the channels toward major repair yards on the WC and PH.

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

Absolutely spot on!! Although I'm not sure what would be "safe" here. If he goes all out for Tokyo, that could be just as bad a base as Nagaoka. Also, some of these strikes, like Kushiro, have hit well protected bases with lots of good naval DP guns and some IJA guns in the units there. I should have some decent defences, but as you see it did relatively nothing to the B-29s either in accuracy or taking them down. I've done a lot better with 12k night strikes on Tokyo to be honest. So ... play and learn!

I haven't seen a player really consider bastions of "safer" factory locations, no. Maybe that's what I'll use my extra supply on now!! [:D]

Since I set this up about 4 years ago I don't feel so bad now, just want to find some kind of temporary stop gap, but I feel hitting the source is the only viable option.

I think Harbin is one of the only bases to intentionally build something thinking it might be safe(r) later in the war. If the Allies come from the Philippines, then the eastern part of the Home Islands would be safer. If they come like CR from the east, then the western side would be better. By the time you know, it will be too late to switch.

Wa

ORIGINAL: obvert

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

You could purchase all of those "machine cannon" units with the 20mm AA guns from Manchuria. These have a ceiling of 5K. Concentrate them all at one base on a rail-line that he is likely to bomb at 2K altitude. Once he bombs that base, set all the 20mm guns to strat move, and then move to another base. With a little luck, he will not realize that these low alititude AA concentrations only have a ceiling of 5K. He may think these are 40mm (or at least 25mm) and move his bombers up to 10k or higher. Also, I often try to have at least 1 squadron at the exact altitude that I expect 4-Es. You may be more likely to achieve some collisions this way as well.