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Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

According to the the German Wiki:

German BBs in design were labelled after letters starting from A.
Before completion the 2 Bismarck class ships were labelled F and G.
The six 52.000 BRT H-class Über-BBs were labelled H to N. They were planned according to the Z-Plan to appease the Dickschiff-faction (battleship-faction, as opposed to the cruiser and U-Boot factions) without having any real operational use for these ships. The underlying idea of the battleship-faction was, that it would need very heavy armored ships to fight a way through CW North Sea blockade. Those heavies then would be committed to cruiser-warefare. Overall it was an inconsequential concept.

The linking of real ship names to those construction letters , like Friedrich der Große, is said to be purely hypothetical.

Never heard the word Bevan.
Moritz is just an unspecific first name. Perhaps in WIF or in the Kriegsmarine it was used in the spoken language just to make the letter M (for the Ship M) more understandable, like in Nato alphabet (Alpha Romeo Tango).

Regards

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

ORIGINAL: wosung

According to the the German Wiki:

German BBs in design were labelled after letters starting from A.
Before completion the 2 Bismarck class ships were labelled F and G.
The six 52.000 BRT H-class Über-BBs were labelled H to N. They were planned according to the Z-Plan to appease the Dickschiff-faction (battleship-faction, as opposed to the cruiser and U-Boot factions) without having any real operational use for these ships. The underlying idea of the battleship-faction was, that it would need very heavy armored ships to fight a way through CW North Sea blockade. Those heavies then would be committed to cruiser-warefare. Overall it was an inconsequential concept.

The linking of real ship names to those construction letters , like Friedrih der Große, is said to be purely hypothetical.

Never heard the word Bevan.
Moritz is just an unspecific first name. Perhaps in WIF or in the Kriegsmarine it was used in the spoken language just to make the letter M (for the Ship M) more understandable, like in Nato alphabet (Alpha Romeo Tango).

Regards

Here is what ADG data from SiF gives us about German Battleships :

BB
Bismarck (Version shown as completed)
Tirpitz (Version shown after refit 1942)
H (Frederich de Grosse) (laid down 16/07/1939)
J (Grossdeutscland) (laid down 16/08/1939)
K (v. Hindenburg)
L (Moritz)
M (Zeiten)
N (Bevan)
All the lettered ones (H to N) are described as in the Version as designed. Work ceased 10.10.39 on all of them.
- 55,453 tons (Bismarck 41,700, Tirpitz 42,900)
- 277.8 m long (Bismarck & Tirpitz 248 m)
- Belt armor 7 to 11.75 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 10 to 12.5 inches)
- Deck armor 4 to 4.8 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 3.3 to 4.8 inches)
- Turret armor 5 to 15.3 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 7 to 14.3 inches)
- Crew 2,600 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 8 x 16 inch guns (Bismarck & Tirpitz 8 x 15 inch guns)
- 12 x 5.9 inch guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 4.1 inch AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 37 mm AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 24 x 20 mm AA guns (12 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 4 seaplanes (6 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- Range 14,000 nautical miles at 19 knots (8,525 for Bismarck & 8,700 for Tirpitz)

BC
All described as in the Version as designed. Cancelled because of war.
O (von Moltke)
P (Bülow)
Q (v. Falkenhayn)
- 30,500 tons
- 256.5 m long
- Belt armor 4 to 7 inches
- Deck armor 3
- Turret armor 2 to 8.3 inches
- Crew 1,965 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 6 x 15 inch guns
- 6 x 5.9 inch guns
- 8 x 4.1 inch AA guns
- 8 x 37 mm AA guns
- 20 x 20 mm AA guns
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes
- 4 seaplanes
- Range respectively of 7,000, 11,000 and 12,000 nautical miles at 17 knots

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

ORIGINAL: wosung

According to the the German Wiki:

German BBs in design were labelled after letters starting from A.
Before completion the 2 Bismarck class ships were labelled F and G.
The six 52.000 BRT H-class Über-BBs were labelled H to N. They were planned according to the Z-Plan to appease the Dickschiff-faction (battleship-faction, as opposed to the cruiser and U-Boot factions) without having any real operational use for these ships. The underlying idea of the battleship-faction was, that it would need very heavy armored ships to fight a way through CW North Sea blockade. Those heavies then would be committed to cruiser-warefare. Overall it was an inconsequential concept.

The linking of real ship names to those construction letters , like Friedrih der Große, is said to be purely hypothetical.

Never heard the word Bevan.
Moritz is just an unspecific first name. Perhaps in WIF or in the Kriegsmarine it was used in the spoken language just to make the letter M (for the Ship M) more understandable, like in Nato alphabet (Alpha Romeo Tango).

Regards

Here is what ADG data from SiF gives us about German Battleships :

BB
Bismarck (Version shown as completed)
Tirpitz (Version shown after refit 1942)
H (Frederich de Grosse) (laid down 16/07/1939)
J (Grossdeutscland) (laid down 16/08/1939)
K (v. Hindenburg)
L (Moritz)
M (Zeiten)
N (Bevan)
All the lettered ones (H to N) are described as in the Version as designed. Work ceased 10.10.39 on all of them.
- 55,453 tons (Bismarck 41,700, Tirpitz 42,900)
- 277.8 m long (Bismarck & Tirpitz 248 m)
- Belt armor 7 to 11.75 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 10 to 12.5 inches)
- Deck armor 4 to 4.8 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 3.3 to 4.8 inches)
- Turret armor 5 to 15.3 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 7 to 14.3 inches)
- Crew 2,600 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 8 x 16 inch guns (Bismarck & Tirpitz 8 x 15 inch guns)
- 12 x 5.9 inch guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 4.1 inch AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 37 mm AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 24 x 20 mm AA guns (12 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 4 seaplanes (6 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- Range 14,000 nautical miles at 19 knots (8,525 for Bismarck & 8,700 for Tirpitz)

BC
All described as in the Version as designed. Cancelled because of war.
O (von Moltke)
P (Bülow)
Q (v. Falkenhayn)
- 30,500 tons
- 256.5 m long
- Belt armor 4 to 7 inches
- Deck armor 3
- Turret armor 2 to 8.3 inches
- Crew 1,965 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 6 x 15 inch guns
- 6 x 5.9 inch guns
- 8 x 4.1 inch AA guns
- 8 x 37 mm AA guns
- 20 x 20 mm AA guns
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes
- 4 seaplanes
- Range respectively of 7,000, 11,000 and 12,000 nautical miles at 17 knots

Warspite1

Thanks, but I have all the info I need on the ships - its just the names of two that I am trying to get to the bottom of. In my write-ups all named ships get a brief explanation of where their name comes from - but in the case of Moritz and Bevan I am at a loss. Most German capital ships were named after famous Germans (mostly military figures) but maybe ADG thought Hitler admired the Welsh politician Aneurin Bevan or his favourite ski resort was St Moritz and would have chosen these for his new battleships [:D].

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Here is what ADG data from SiF gives us about German Battleships :

BB
Bismarck (Version shown as completed)
Tirpitz (Version shown after refit 1942)
H (Frederich de Grosse) (laid down 16/07/1939)
J (Grossdeutscland) (laid down 16/08/1939)
K (v. Hindenburg)
L (Moritz)
M (Zeiten)
N (Bevan)
All the lettered ones (H to N) are described as in the Version as designed. Work ceased 10.10.39 on all of them.
- 55,453 tons (Bismarck 41,700, Tirpitz 42,900)
- 277.8 m long (Bismarck & Tirpitz 248 m)
- Belt armor 7 to 11.75 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 10 to 12.5 inches)
- Deck armor 4 to 4.8 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 3.3 to 4.8 inches)
- Turret armor 5 to 15.3 inches (Bismarck & Tirpitz 7 to 14.3 inches)
- Crew 2,600 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 8 x 16 inch guns (Bismarck & Tirpitz 8 x 15 inch guns)
- 12 x 5.9 inch guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 4.1 inch AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 16 x 37 mm AA guns (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 24 x 20 mm AA guns (12 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes (same for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- 4 seaplanes (6 for Bismarck & Tirpitz)
- Range 14,000 nautical miles at 19 knots (8,525 for Bismarck & 8,700 for Tirpitz)

BC
All described as in the Version as designed. Cancelled because of war.
O (von Moltke)
P (Bülow)
Q (v. Falkenhayn)
- 30,500 tons
- 256.5 m long
- Belt armor 4 to 7 inches
- Deck armor 3
- Turret armor 2 to 8.3 inches
- Crew 1,965 (Bismarck 2,092, Tirpitz 2,608)
- 6 x 15 inch guns
- 6 x 5.9 inch guns
- 8 x 4.1 inch AA guns
- 8 x 37 mm AA guns
- 20 x 20 mm AA guns
- 6 x 21 inch torpedo tubes
- 4 seaplanes
- Range respectively of 7,000, 11,000 and 12,000 nautical miles at 17 knots

BB Zeiten should be BB Zieten, named after a family of Prussian (mostly cavalry) generals from Silesian and Napoleonic Wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieten

Regards

About Moritz... the only famous Moritz I can think off is "Max und Moritz" A cartoon figure, like a very early Micky Mouse:



linky here


And, von Richthofen's dog,a Dane, was also called Moritz.

Just some wild guesses I know.

Well, there is St. Moritz.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

Warspite1

Well now I know. Bevan is spelt wrong so no wonder I could not find him - its Bevern, who was a Prussian general in the 18th century.

Moritz is not spelt wrong - I just couldn`t find him - apparently he was a Prussian Field Marshal, Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau.

So there you go....

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

Warspite1

Well now I know. Bevan is spelt wrong so no wonder I could not find him - its Bevern, who was a Prussian general in the 18th century.

Moritz is not spelt wrong - I just couldn`t find him - apparently he was a Prussian Field Marshal, Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau.

So there you go....

Good you found out.

For my post with extensive data, I included that so that we were sure we were talking about the right ships. So I wanted to show you what ships ADG had in mind with Zeiten or Moritz or Bevern counters.

Just for a change from the naval units: Here are the latest land descriptions I have done. I am doing them in batches but together they almost complete the British/Commonwealth/Empire sets.

Comments and corrections wanted. Note that as requested for some earlier posts I have repeated the initial paragraph for the 'series' eg Militia and Garrison entries.


[2415] [III INFANTRY corps- British]
.T This was one of the three regular infantry corps headquarters in existence at the start of the war and went to France to command the initial group of territorial infantry divisions that started to deploy in 1940. When the Germans attacked in May of that year it controlled the 5th, 42nd (East Lancashire) and 44th (Home Counties) Infantry Divisions, together with the customary supporting troops such as the 1st/9th Machine-Gun Battalion of the Manchester Regiment and the 51st and 57th Medium Regiments of the Royal Artillery.
.P On its return the corps was moved to Lancashire in North-West England where it only controlled the 38th (Welsh) Infantry Division and then to Northern Ireland. Its commander there was Lieutenant-General Adams who chose its badge of a green fig-leaf on a white background. By the end of 1941 its divisions were the 5th and 59th (Staffordshire) Infantry.
.P In early 1943 elements of the headquarters moved to Iraq and became part of the Tenth Army. For much of the time it only contained the 6th Indian Infantry Division. However it was also expected to deceive the Germans into believing that there was a large force of notional (dummy) divisions under its command, preparing to attack in the Aegean. When the need for this diversion ended it became a reserve command, stationed in Syria and Egypt.
.P The final function was to command the Allied troops sent to Greece to back the ‘royalist’ forces against the communists of EOKA who had attempted to seize control of Athens and Salonika. Under the title of ‘Land Forces and Liason Greece’ the corps eventually controlled the 4th and 46th (North Midland) British and 4th Indian Infantry Divisions, together with the 23rd Armoured Brigade and the Greek 3rd Mountain Brigade.

[2416] [V INFANTRY corps- British]
.T This was created in 1940 to command the British contingent sent to Norway, using the headquarters of the 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division. It commanded two of its brigades (the third went to Iceland and the Faroes), and the 24th Guards and 15th Infantry Brigades and the earliest commandos – known then as the ‘Independent Companies’. The corps badge, a white Viking ship on a black background with a Crusader cross on its sail commemorated this phase of its history.
.P Despite its accidental creation this became a first-line headquarters that was active for much of the war. In September 1940 it was responsible for the vulnerable coastline of Southern England, stretching from Sussex west to Dorsetshire and commanded the 4th and 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Divisions. In contrast a year later it commanded the 38th (Welsh) and 47th (London) Divisions, both reduced in strength to provide trained infantry for the forces being deployed overseas.
.P British corps usually had a large number of support units under control as well as their fighting divisions and brigades. For example when serving in Britain with the First Army in July 1942 it held the 6th and 9th Armoured Divisions and the 86th Anti-Tank and 104th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiments. However it also commanded units as diverse as the 11th Field Hygiene Section, the 28th Teletype Operating Section, the 14th Mobile Laundry and the 16th Field Cash Section. Perhaps the most unusual was the 14th Carrier Pigeon Section with its eight mobile pigeon lofts! In strong contrast was the 653rd Air Observation Squadron of the Royal Air Force with its Auster light aircraft.
.P Active service re-started when the corps was selected to join the First Army in Tunisia. In February it had the 46th and 78th Infantry and 6th Armoured Divisions and the 1st Parachute Brigade under command. When the Eighth Army entered Italy the V Corps landed at Salerno and drove north along the Adriatic Coast. In November 1943 its primary units were the 78th Infantry, 1st Airborne and 8th Indian Infantry Divisions, backed up by the guns of the 1st and 8th AGRA (Army Groups Royal Artillery). By this stage the corps was led by Lieutenant-General Allfrey, who remained in command for the rest of the war. Some of the most intense fighting of the campaign took place at Ortona where the 1st Canadian Infantry and 1st German Parachute Divisions fought hand-to-hand with both taking heavy casualties.
.P As was customary with most British corps, its composition regularly changed. The corps led the break through of the Gothic Line in August with the 1st Armoured and 4th, 46th, 56th (London) and 4th Indian Infantry Divisions under command together with the Italian Liberation Corps (a division sized formation). By April 1945 when the final offensive started General Allfrey had a very different force under command, consisting of the four infantry divisions, the 2nd New Zealand, 8th Indian and 56th and 78th British together with the 3rd Commando Brigade and the Italian Cremona Combat Group. When the war ended V Corps was contesting the control of Trieste with the Yugoslav Partisans.

[2431][MILITIA Glasgow - British]
.T The militia system had been found wanting as early as 1908. It was crippled by centuries of regulation (the system was known as the ‘Constitutional Militia’) that prevented its members from being called up or even sent abroad if they did not wish too. Over the years it had degenerated into a convenient way for men to avoid any risk of combat. Therefore it was replaced by the new Territorial Force. The only exception was Northern Ireland and the only militia unit to see service in World War Two was the armoured North Irish Horse. In a sense the militia were reborn as the Home Guard, but this organisation only accepted those who were too old or young to serve in active units, or who were not allowed to serve full-time because their civilian jobs were too important.
.P In practise coast observation, prisoner-of-war guard duties, anti-invasion patrols and similar duties were carried out by the reserve battalions and by the training bases of the various infantry regiments. Every one had a Regimental Depot, which by 1942 had expanded to include its Regimental Infantry Training Centre, as well as the Holding Battalion (usually the 10th) which held trained soldiers ready to go to active battalions. In 1940 many of these did indeed ‘hold’ sections of the coastline. Most regiments also had a Young Soldier Battalion (normally the 70th) which was used to provide initial training. As well as these a regiment would have a varying number of Home Defence Battalions in addition to one or more active battalions stationed near the Depot.
.P Two regiments were raised in Glasgow itself, the Cameronians and the Highland Light Infantry. Both of these were ‘lowland’ regiments as was the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, raised as the name implies in the region south of Glasgow by the border with England. Other regiments had their base in the mountains to the north (hence ‘highland’ regiments) but also needed to recruit in the lowlands of Scotland. Among these were the Cameron Highlanders and the Seaforth Highlanders. To illustrate the system the Cameronians had the usual two Regular battalions (1st and 2nd), two defunct and useless Militia battalions (3rd and 4th), two 1st-Line Territorial (6th and 7th) and their 2nd-Line or duplicate 9th and 10th Battalions. The missing numbers were because some battalions had been converted into searchlight units. In addition the Cameronians raised three Home Duties battalions, the 11th, 12th and 13th. Since each regiment would usually only have four or five battalions on active service, it can be seen that several others were available to perform local and coast defence duties.

[2432][MILITIA London - Britain]
.T The militia system had been found wanting as early as 1908. It was crippled by centuries of regulation (the system was known as the ‘Constitutional Militia’) that prevented its members from being called up or even sent abroad if they did not wish too. Over the years it had degenerated into a convenient way for men to avoid any risk of combat. Therefore it was replaced by the new Territorial Force. The only exception was Northern Ireland and the only militia unit to see service in World War Two was the armoured North Irish Horse. In a sense the militia were reborn as the Home Guard, but this organisation only accepted those who were too old or young to serve in active units, or who were not allowed to serve full-time because their civilian jobs were too important.
.P In practise coast observation, prisoner-of-war guard duties, anti-invasion patrols and similar duties were carried out by the reserve battalions and by the training bases of the various infantry regiments. Every one had a Regimental Depot, which by 1942 had expanded to include its Regimental Infantry Training Centre, as well as the Holding Battalion (usually the 10th) which held trained soldiers ready to go to active battalions. In 1940 many of these did indeed ‘hold’ sections of the coastline. Most regiments also had a Young Soldier Battalion (normally the 70th) which was used to provide initial training. As well as these a regiment would have a varying number of Home Defence Battalions in addition to one or more active battalions stationed near the Depot.
.P Until after the First World War London had its own territorial regiment, but then the London Regiment was dissolved and its battalions assigned to a greatly expanded Royal Fusilier Regiment. The other group present in London was the Brigade of Guards. This contained five separate regiments, the Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards. Each had two regular and several war-raised battalions. Normally at least one battalion of each regiment was stationed in London. In addition each contained a ‘Holding Company’ for men who had completed their training and were ready to be transferred to an active battalion. In November 1943 those of the Grenadier, Coldstream and Scots Guards were converged into the Westminster Guards Garrison Battalion.
.P The Royal Fusiliers (The City of London Regiment) had an even more complex structure. It had the usual two Regular (1st and 2nd) battalions and in this case three Militia battalions (5th, 6th and 7th). Although useless these had a prestigious history, the 7th for example dating back to 1559 when raised as the Train-Bands of the City of London. Far more useful were the Territorials - the 1st-Line (8th and 9th) and 2nd Line (11th and 12th) battalions. Because it was drawing from a large population base it raised far more wartime battalions than usual, the 14th to 23rd inclusive. Some were first formed as pioneer battalions, one (the 11th) specifically to garrison overseas territories, but most as Home Service battalions.
.P However this was not all. The battalions of the old London Regiment still existed but they now assumed distinctive names that celebrated where they recruited. Each had one 1st-Line and at least one duplicate Territorial battalion. The London Scottish was different in that it served as infantry, the remainder were trained as motor battalions (in London, unlike most parts of England, a large proportion of the population had some mechanical knowledge). These Territorial battalions of the London Rifle Brigade, the Queen Victoria’s Rifles, the Rangers, the Queen’s Westminster’s and the Tower Hamlet Rifles were associated with two other regiments. Most became motor battalions attached to armoured brigades and eventually transferred and became units of two elite regiments, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps and the Rifle Brigade.

[2433][MILITIA Manchester - British]
.T The militia system had been found wanting as early as 1908. It was crippled by centuries of regulation (the system was known as the ‘Constitutional Militia’) that prevented its members from being called up or even sent abroad if they did not wish too. Over the years it had degenerated into a convenient way for men to avoid any risk of combat. Therefore it was replaced by the new Territorial Force. The only exception was Northern Ireland and the only militia unit to see service in World War Two was the armoured North Irish Horse. In a sense the militia were reborn as the Home Guard, but this organisation only accepted those who were too old or young to serve in active units, or who were not allowed to serve full-time because their civilian jobs were too important.
.P In practise coast observation, prisoner-of-war guard duties, anti-invasion patrols and similar duties were carried out by the reserve battalions and by the training bases of the various infantry regiments. Every one had a Regimental Depot, which by 1942 had expanded to include its Regimental Infantry Training Centre, as well as the Holding Battalion (usually the 10th) which held trained soldiers ready to go to active battalions. In 1940 many of these did indeed ‘hold’ sections of the coastline. Most regiments also had a Young Soldier Battalion (normally the 70th) which was used to provide initial training. As well as these a regiment would have a varying number of Home Defence Battalions in addition to one or more active battalions stationed near the Depot.
.P Lancashire contained some of the oldest regiments in the British Army. The three most prestigious were the King’s Regiment, the King’s Own Royal Regiment and the hard-fighting Lancashire Fusiliers. The region also produced two of the few regiments that had ordered to convert their units into machine-gun battalions – the Cheshire and Manchester Regiments. The great industrial cities of the region (Manchester and Liverpool were merely the largest), which included Staffordshire and Cheshire, produced large numbers of soldiers, enough for no less than four infantry divisions, the 42nd, 55th, 59th and 66th.
.P As an example the King’s Own (the old 4th Foot) had the usual two Regular (1st and 2nd) battalions, two defunct Militia ones (3rd and 4th) and a 1st-Line Territorial (the 5th). There would normally be more territorials but they had been converted into anti-tank regiments before the war started. However the King’s Own did form four pioneer battalions (combat construction troops) in the opening months of the year and these were available for home defence and guard duties.

[2434][XL GARRISON corps British]
.T From 1942 on many British infantry divisions were considered unlikely to engage in battle and therefore reduced to a ‘lower establishment’, often referred to as reserve divisions. These would then be used to garrison coastal areas that were in minimal risk of invasion and to train their officers and men. Many of these soldiers would then be transferred to active battalions of their regiments that were serving in Italy or France. The phrase ‘garrison’ was not used in the British army but these divisions, grouped into districts that were the home service equivalent of corps, performed the same function.
.P They originated in two different ways. The most common were the 2nd line or ‘duplicate’ Territorial divisions. An example was the 38th (Welsh) Division, the duplicate of the 53rd (Welsh) Division. The numbering is deceptive, because the 53rd was the first-line formation, serving in France. Both contained battalions of the infantry regiments of the principality – the Royal Welch Fusiliers, the South Wales Borderers and the Welch Regiment. But the 38th remained in the south-west of England until 1943 until designated a reserve division in January 1944.
.P A comparable situation applied to the 54th (East Anglian) Infantry Division, except that in this case the 1st line twin, the 18th Infantry Division, was sent to Singapore in early 1942 where it was promptly forced to surrender. As a result (since there was no longer a senior formation to assist) the 54th was reduced to the lower establishment as early as January 1942. However in this case, once its training duties were completed, the headquarters was not abolished but instead turned into the Line of Communications Headquarters of the 21st Army Group. Many of its battalions, by now having lost many of their most qualified soldiers, remained attached and protected the rear installations in France and Belgium. By this time most of the original East Anglian battalions (of regiments such as the Essex, Suffolk and Hertfordshire) had left for other divisions.
.P Other Territorial divisions used in this way included the 47th (London) and 48th (South Midland). Another group that were never able to serve overseas were the 2nd-line divisions sent to France in 1940 to complete their training. The 12th (Eastern) and 23rd (Northumbrian) were so damaged that they were considered unsuitable for front-line service and soon relegated to reserve or garrison duties.

[2435][XLV GARRISON corps British]
.T From 1942 on many British infantry divisions were considered unlikely to engage in battle and therefore reduced to a ‘lower establishment’, often referred to as reserve divisions. These would then be used to garrison coastal areas that were in minimal risk of invasion and to train their officers and men. Many of these soldiers would then be transferred to active battalions of their regiments that were serving in Italy or France. The phrase ‘garrison’ was not used in the British army but these divisions, grouped into districts that were the home service equivalent of corps, performed the same function.
.P Most of these were 2nd-line (or ‘duplicate’) Territorial divisions. But there were also a number of infantry divisions that were raised during the war. One of these, the 78th ‘Battleaxe’ Infantry Division was formed from a mix of guards, regular and territorial battalions and served in North Africa and Italy. It was in all respects a first-line formation, indicated when its guards brigade left and was replaced by the 38th Brigade. This was known as the ‘Irish Brigade’ and contained battalions of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, the Royal Irish Fusiliers and the London Irish Rifles.
.P In contrast the remaining wartime raised divisions were considered to be garrison formations. The last to be formed, the 80th Division in January 1943, was treated in this way from the first, spending its time in the Welsh Borders as a training unit. Although it did have artillery (the 195th Field and 94th Anti-Tank Regiments) this was deceptive as they were just there to provide the explosions needed for realistic battle practise. It was dissolved in September 1944.
.P The 76th and 77th Divisions were formed in late 1941. The first was initially stationed in East Anglia, serving in part as a headquarters for the many medium and coast defence artillery regiments in the area. It became a training division a year later and was officially disbanded in September 1944. However it continued to perform a useful role. From the start it had been ‘sold’ to the Germans as an active division, so when disbanded the signal detachment was retained. It continued to generate the signals of a 76th Division, while also broadcasting those of the 47th Division, another garrison formation disbanded in the same period.
.P The 77th had a similar early history, in this case stationed first in Devon and then in the north-east. When turned into a training unit its initial speciality was to instruct in combined arms warfare, for which it received the 11th Tank Brigade with its Churchill Infantry tanks. In December 1943 it changed roles and became the ‘Holding Division Home Forces’. Its job was to ‘hold’ in its battalions and retain in fighting condition, qualified soldier who had recovered from wounds or disease or who had returned from long-term leave after overseas service. Because the regimental concept was central to British infantry it contained a representative set of battalions that gave this refresher training to men of associated regiments. For example the Ulster Rifles dealt with Irish and the Seaforth Highlanders with Scottish soldiers. In September 1944 its number was changed to the 45th, just to help convince the Germans that several infantry divisions remained in Britain that could participate in another landing. In fact all that remained were these training divisions grouped into their various garrison commands.

Just for a change from the naval units: This is the 2nd UK/CW batch, including one of the weapon units.

Comments and corrections welcomed.



[2436][50th MOTORIZED DIVISION – British]
.T The 50th was a 1st-Line Territorial Division that recruited in the North-East of England – in the area of the Rivers Tyne and Tees – hence the overlapping double T of its badge. When the war started it had reformed as a ‘motor’ division which meant that it had enough trucks to transport all of its infantry. Other British infantry divisions were ‘semi-motorised’ – which meant that although there were no horses, the infantry still had to march unless trucks were brought in from army level units. However the 50th had only two brigades, not the usual three, supported by a motor-cycle battalion of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. Its commander was Major-General Le Martel, one of the British pioneers of tank warfare and chosen because the division was intended fight beside armoured and tank brigades.
.P It was one of the first Territorial divisions to go to France, arriving in January 1940. Its best known exploit during the Battle of France was the counter-attack at Arras. Two motor battalions of the 50th (the 6th and 8th Durham Light Infantry) combined with the Matilda tanks of the 4th and 7th Royal Tank Regiment to inflict serious losses on the 7th Panzer and Totenkopf Motorised Divisions. The attack was checked when Rommel improvised and used his anti-aircraft 8.8cm guns against the British tanks, but it did contribute to the German indecisiveness that resulted in the escape of many Allied troops at Dunkirk.
.P As all vehicles had been lost, on its return the 50th was reorganised into a standard infantry division. Improvised weapons had to be used, such as monstrous Royal Navy 4-inch guns mounted on trucks, to defend the coastline. It next went overseas in April 1941 and was used to garrison the island of Crete until November, then being motorized again on being assigned to the 8th Army in Egypt. When the next major desert battle began at Gazala in May 1942 the 50th was the only British infantry division present. In accordance with the flawed doctrine of the time it was broken up into brigade groups, each with a regiment of artillery, a company of machine-gunners and a battery of anti-tank guns. The problem was that they were emplaced in fortified ‘boxes’ too far apart for mutual support. When the Germans attacked this proved a fatal flaw and the veteran 150th Brigade stationed at ‘the Cauldron’ was overrun and captured. More losses were taken when the division had to break-through German units surrounding it at Mersah Matruh on June 24th. By the time the defensive lines at El Alamein were reached the 50th Division had taken 8,875 casualties and its remaining six battalions were down to an average strength of 300.
.P It had recovered by the time Montgomery attacked and was stationed at the southern end of the Allied line. Its two brigades drove west to Tunisia and attacked the Mareth Line. When selected to invade Sicily as part of the XII Corps it was strengthened by the addition of the 168th (London) Infantry Brigade. This was a short attachment as after the landing it was given the 231st Brigade, composed of regular battalions that had previously been part of the garrison of Malta. It also joined the XXX Corps to which it belonged for the rest of its existence, capturing 453 German and 8,392 Italians, but taking over 2,000 casualties. Together with the 7th Armoured and 51st (Highland) Division it was selected by Montgomery to return to Britain in order to participate in the invasion of France.
.P The 50th Northumbrian, would assault Gold, the westernmost of the Commonwealth beaches. For this to succeed it was heavily reinforced by the DD tanks of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards and the Nottinghamshire Yeomanry. In addition its three artillery regiments the first Sexton self-propelled 25-pounder guns to be produced. Although the landing stage was successful it was followed by two months of intense and expensive attritional warfare. This would lead to the 50th being disbanded after the completion of the Normandy Campaign. Although it was the most experienced and in some respects the most successful British infantry division its regional recruitment pattern had created major problems. The north-east had a limited population and the 151st Brigade in particular, formed of three battalions of the Durham Light Infantry, could not be kept up to strength. The 69th Brigade, with a battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment and two other Yorkshire battalions of the Green Howards, had a similar problem. It was therefore decided to break-up the division, its experienced soldiers being assigned to the remaining infantry formations of the 21st Army Group.

[2438] [XI MOTORIZED corps- British]
.T The badge of the XI Corps symbolized its service. It was a stylised representation of a Martello Tower, the coast defence structures built to defend against a feared invasion by Napoleon in 1805. This was appropriate since the corps spent its war service as part of the Home Army, charged with both defending against an invasion and with training the divisions and brigades under its command.
.P After Dunkirk many of the area commands in the United Kingdom were converted into the headquarters of hastily raised corps. The XI was one of these and in August 1941 was in East Anglia, guarding the coast of Essex and Suffolk. This was considered a secondary front so the XI only had two artillery regiments (the 72nd Medium and 147th Field) to back up its formations. They were the 15th (Scottish) and 55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Divisions. Although both of these were up to strength in manpower they lacked modern artillery and had few machine-guns and mortars.
.P By December the XI Corps area of responsibility had shifted south and it now covered both banks of the Thames Estuary. However it was really a reserve formation for IX Corps to the north and the XII Corps in Kent, both stationed closer to the open coastline. Both the 56th (London) and 45th Infantry Divisions were under command. In addition it controlled the 73rd Brigade and 223rd Independent Infantry Brigades. The former was about to move to Cornwall. The XI Corps was responsible for training the 223rd Brigade and the 21st Army Tank Brigade, which had just formed to operated the new Churchill Infantry tanks.
.P When the threat of invasion vanished after the German attack on Russia many of these reserve units and commands were abolished. The XI Corps vanished in early 1942 just after its 45th Infantry Division was reduced to reserve status.


[2439] [XIII MOTORIZED corps- British]
.T It had been originally anticipated by the British that their army in the second world war would require the same number of corps (essentially one for every three divisions) as in 1914-1918. In the event the demand for manpower by the Royal Air Force for the strategic bombing of Germany and by the Royal Navy to fight the U-Boats meant that they would not be needed. However the War Office retained the numbers of the proposed corps in reserve.
.P The only time these ‘extra’ corps were employed was to act as a ‘notional’ command for the many deception divisions created to deceive the Axis forces. The best known example is the build-up of an imaginary army group in Britain in 1944 to persuade the Germans that additional landings might take place in Norway and the Pas-de-Calais. There were two other cases where this technique was used on a massive scale. One was in Persia and Iraq where an entire notional army was created to persuade the Germans that the Allies intended to invade in the Aegean and Greece. The other was in India where a notional invasion force was crafted to persuade the Japanese to retain forces in Malaya and Sumatra, instead of sending them to fight the Allies in Burma.
.P Every deception was crafted by building on an existing smaller unit or by creating a dummy headquarters with the signals traffic of a genuine formation. For example the 5th Armoured Division in Britain and the 8th Armoured Division in the Middle East were based on the disbanding 35th and 74th Armoured Brigades respectively. Just to illustrate the scale of these deceptions, the following is the list of British infantry divisions that were ‘created’, in some cases by treating training or reserve formations as active ones that were ready for battle: 7th, 12th, 34th, 40th, 42nd, 57th, 58th, 76th, 77th and 80th. Other types were also invented, including the 20th Armoured, 15th Motorised and 2nd Airborne Divisions.
.P Since the Germans knew that division numbers used the same system as in the First World War, numbering the imaginary corps in the same way would add to the deception. As an example an XIII Corps had originally been formed in 1915 in Flanders under the command of the highly respected Lieutenant-General Congreve and its units achieved the greatest advance during the later stages of the Battle of the Somme. The following year the XIII Corps commanded at Arras and Passchendaele and then helped to breach the Hindenburg Line in 1918. It therefore would have made sense to use its name for a deception command based in the United Kingdom.

[2440] [XIV MOTORIZED corps- British]
.T It had been originally anticipated by the British that their army in the second world war would require the same number of corps (essentially one for every three divisions) as in 1914-1918. In the event the demand for manpower by the Royal Air Force for the strategic bombing of Germany and by the Royal Navy to fight the U-Boats meant that they would not be needed. However the War Office retained the numbers of the proposed corps in reserve.
.P The only time these ‘extra’ corps were employed was to act as a ‘notional’ command for the many deception divisions created to deceive the Axis forces. The best known example is the build-up of an imaginary army group in Britain in 1944 to persuade the Germans that additional landings might take place in Norway and the Pas-de-Calais. There were two other cases where this technique was used on a massive scale. One was in Persia and Iraq where an entire notional army was created to persuade the Germans that the Allies intended to invade in the Aegean and Greece. The other was in India where a notional invasion force was crafted to persuade the Japanese to retain forces in Malaya and Sumatra, instead of sending them to fight the Allies in Burma.
.P Every deception was crafted by building on an existing smaller unit or by creating a dummy headquarters with the signals traffic of a genuine formation. For example the 5th Armoured Division in Britain and the 8th Armoured Division in the Middle East were based on the disbanding 35th and 74th Armoured Brigades respectively. Just to illustrate the scale of these deceptions, the following is the list of British infantry divisions that were ‘created’, in some cases by treating training or reserve formations as active ones that were ready for battle: 7th, 12th, 34th, 40th, 42nd, 57th, 58th, 76th, 77th and 80th. Other deception examples included the 6th and 7th Polish Infantry Divisions. In this case both were achieved by pretending that immobile training units could be used for combat.
.P Since the Germans knew that the division numbers used the same system as in the First World War, numbering the imaginary corps in the same way would add to the deception. As an example this XIV Corps had been formed in France in 1916. Its commander throughout most of the war was Lieutenant-General Lord Caven. After fighting at the Somme and Arras it was used to command the British divisions sent to Italy after the Central Powers victory at Caporetto. They then contributed to the Italian victory of 1918 known as the battle of Vittorio Veneto. It therefore would have made sense to use its name for a deception command based in the Mediterranean theatre of operations.

[2441] [XX MOTORIZED corps- British]
.T It had been originally anticipated by the British that their army in the second world war would require the same number of corps (essentially one for every three divisions) as in 1914-1918. In the event the demand for manpower by the Royal Air Force for the strategic bombing of Germany and by the Royal Navy to fight the U-Boats meant that they would not be needed. However the War Office retained the numbers of the proposed corps in reserve.
.P The only time these ‘extra’ corps were employed was to act as a ‘notional’ command for the many deception divisions created to deceive the Axis forces. The best known example is the build-up of an imaginary army group in Britain in 1944 to persuade the Germans that additional landings might take place in Norway and the Pas-de-Calais. There were two other cases where this technique was used on a massive scale. One was in Persia and Iraq where an entire notional army was created to persuade the Germans that the Allies intended to invade in the Aegean and Greece. The other was in India where a notional invasion force was crafted to persuade the Japanese to retain forces in Malaya and Sumatra, instead of sending them to fight the Allies in Burma.
.P Every deception was crafted by building on an existing smaller unit or by creating a dummy headquarters with the signals traffic of a genuine formation. For example the 5th Armoured Division in Britain and the 8th Armoured Division in the Middle East were based on the disbanding 35th and 74th Armoured Brigades respectively. Just to illustrate the scale of these deceptions, the following is the list of British infantry divisions that were ‘created’, in some cases by treating training or reserve formations as active ones that were ready for battle: 7th, 12th, 34th, 40th, 42nd, 57th, 58th, 76th, 77th and 80th. Other examples included the 2nd and 12th Indian Infantry Divisions, both ‘created’ in Iraq from various infantry battalions and unwanted headquarters at a time when the Allies feared that the Germans would cross the Caucasus and invade Persia
.P Since the Germans knew that division numbers used the same system as in the First World War, numbering the imaginary corps in the same way would add to the deception. As an example this XXth Corps was formed late in the war when General Allenby was sent to Egypt to reorganise the army facing the Turks at Gaza and Beersheba. Its first commander was Lieutenant-General Chetwode, previously in command of the Australian and New Zealand light horse regiments used to guard the desert flank of the army. Its divisions participated in the decisive battle at Megiddo which led to the capture of Damascus. It therefore would have made sense to use its name for a deception command based in the Middle or Near East.

[2442][7th MECHANIZED DIVISION – British]
.T When the war began the best trained armoured formation in the British Army was the Mobile Division in Egypt. It was soon renamed the 7th Armoured Division, but the original title was more appropriate since one of its two brigades had to operate with trucks and armoured cars. There were about 50 tanks but all but a few were obsolete Vickers models with nothing but light machine-guns. The only fully equipped unit was the 11th Hussars and even then some of its Rolls-Royce armoured cars were over 20 years old.
.P By June 1940 there was some improvement in the form of 28 Cruiser tanks, but even then eight did not have any guns. Fortunately for all concerned in December 1940 when ‘Operation Compass’, the attack on the Italian positions west of El Alamein took place, there was a genuine increase in its strength. The 7th now had the structure it would fight with for the next year and a half. Two armoured brigades, each with three regiments of about 50 tanks and a support group of two more motor battalions (one usually serving with each armoured brigade), an anti-tank regiment and a field artillery regiment. About half of the armour were A9 or A10 Cruisers and the rest Vickers VI Light tanks. The most spectacular achievement in the fast-moving campaign was the drive across the open desert from Tobruk to the coast, cutting off the retreating Italians and defeating them at the Battle of Beda Fomm. By now it was known as ‘the Desert Rats’ assuming the jerboa as its formation badge. At this point the armoured cars of the 11th Hussars were just one day’s drive from Tripoli. However Churchill decided that intervention in Greece was more important so the 7th handed over their equipment to the newly arrived 2nd Armoured Division and returned to Egypt to rest.
.P The unfortunate 2nd was wrecked by Rommel and in the next six months the 7th faced him three times, losing in the Brevity and Battleaxe battles but eventually, and at a heavy, price, succeeding in the Crusader battles of November 1941. One reason for the losses was the strange British command structure. The 7th Division headquarters had to command the 4th, 7th and 22nd Armoured Brigades (with about 450 tanks between them), the infantry and guns of the 7th Support Group, the infantry of the 22nd Guards Motor Brigade and no less than three armoured car regiments! It is not surprising that control proved difficult. The next major battle was Gazala in May 1942, characterised by pitiful British command at army and corps level. By now the 7th had adopted the basic structure it would retain for the rest of the war – one armoured brigade (the 4th) with three tank regiments and one motor infantry unit, one infantry brigade (the 7th) and the usual collection of artillery and armoured car units. Despite much better equipment (Grant tanks and 6-pounder anti-tank guns) Gazala proved an unqualified disaster for British armour and a month later the 4th Armoured Brigade was reduced to ten squadrons from eight different regiments sharing some 90 battered tanks.
.P The 7th took so long to recover that it played a subordinate part at El Alamein. Since it therefore took few casualties it was assigned the job of leading the pursuit through Tobruk and Tripoli to Tunisia. By the time it landed in Italy in September 1944 its brigades had become the 22nd Armoured and the 131st (called Queen’s because all three battalions belonged to the Queen’s Royal Regiment) Lorried Infantry Brigades. A month later it left for Britain. There it handed over its Sherman and received Cromwell tanks. This was a faster machine, the only problem being that it looked very different to the 17-pounder Sherman Firefly tanks that were also in each regiment. As a result they took heavier losses than in those that just used Sherman 75mm and 17pdr tanks.
.P Many felt that by this stage the division had ‘lost its edge’, especially when a complete squadron of the 4th County of London Yeomanry was destroyed by Tiger tanks led by Wittman, the SS tank ace. In reality the entire engagement was a drawn battle, at least six Tigers (one of them being that of Wittman) also being destroyed, but it seems that the leaders of the 7th Armoured lost their nerve and ordered the troops to fall back from the contested town of Villers Bocage. The division commander, his brigadiers and nearly 100 others dismissed by Montgomery and slowly the 7th recovered its command skills. In particular it led the very fast (only the American 1st Army under Hodges was faster) advance after Normandy to Brussels and beyond. After being engaged in the bitter fighting along the Roer River it eventually became the first British armoured division to cross the Rhine, finishing the war at Hamburg, a very long way from its first battles in Egypt, five years earlier.

[2455] [4.5 inch field gun - Commonwealth]
.T Two new designs were approved for the medium regiments of the Royal Artillery in 1939. The best known was the 5.5-inch gun, but the first to be produced and used was the 4.5-inch gun. It was virtually identical to the larger weapon, using the same breech mechanism and carriage and also with the distinctive pair of long ‘horns’ (actually springs) on each side of the barrel.
.P It was distinguished by the longer barrel (41 calibre instead of 30 calibre) produced to give it a greater range. This was because the gun was designed to be, above all, a counter-battery weapon, trading a smaller shell (55 versus 100 pounds) for an additional 4,000 yards of range. The British liked it for this reason and it proved particularly useful in Italy where the need to clear ridges meant that guns had to be emplaced further away from the front line. Initially each medium regiment had one battery (8 guns) with 4.5 and one with the heavier 5.5-inch guns. Later to simplify ammunition supply each type was concentrated in a regiment. In North-West Europe only the Canadians made widespread use of the 4.5. The weapon was also taken into American service but not particularly admired as its gunners always preferred weight of shell over range in medium artillery.
.H
.B Muzzle velocity: 2,250 ft/sec (with 55 pound shell)
.B Maximum range: 20,500 yards
.B Weight in action: 12,880lb

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

Warspite1

Well now I know. Bevan is spelt wrong so no wonder I could not find him - its Bevern, who was a Prussian general in the 18th century.

Moritz is not spelt wrong - I just couldn`t find him - apparently he was a Prussian Field Marshal, Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau.

So there you go....

(1) Moritz is the German equivalent of the name "Maurice".
(2) Moritz , Germany a municipality in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
(3) Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau, Field Marshal – If this ship is named after him why isn't the counter named "Prinz Moritz" as “Prinz Eugen” is?

(1) August Wilhelm, Duke of Brunswick-Bevern (1715 in Braunschweig – 1781 in Stettin)
(2) Bevern, Schleswig-Holstein, a municipality in the district of Pinneberg, Schleswig-Holstein
(3a) Bevern, Lower Saxony, a municipality in the district of Holzminden, Lower Saxony
(3b) Bevern (Samtgemeinde), in Lower Saxony

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know why ADG would have named two of the proposed H-class battleships Moritz and Bevan?

I can find no reference to famous Germans with these names [:(]

Can someone help please?

Warspite1

Well now I know. Bevan is spelt wrong so no wonder I could not find him - its Bevern, who was a Prussian general in the 18th century.

Moritz is not spelt wrong - I just couldn`t find him - apparently he was a Prussian Field Marshal, Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau.

So there you go....

(1) Moritz is the German equivalent of the name "Maurice".
(2) Moritz , Germany a municipality in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
(3) Prince Moritz of Anhalt-Dessau, Field Marshal – If this ship is named after him why isn't the counter named "Prinz Moritz" as “Prinz Eugen” is?

(1) August Wilhelm, Duke of Brunswick-Bevern (1715 in Braunschweig – 1781 in Stettin)
(2) Bevern, Schleswig-Holstein, a municipality in the district of Pinneberg, Schleswig-Holstein
(3a) Bevern, Lower Saxony, a municipality in the district of Holzminden, Lower Saxony
(3b) Bevern (Samtgemeinde), in Lower Saxony

Warspite1

Moritz
(1) and (2) The Germans named their capital ships after people not places
(3) I do not know - you will have to ask Harry Rowland - its his suggestion for a what if counter.

Bevern
(1) That's the baby
(2), (3a) and (3b) See (1) and (2) for Moritz

(3) 'Prinz' Eugen because the title did not come from the Prussian tradition, rather that of the Austrian royal family; in fact a courtesy title adopted after the 'forced/genuine' accession of Austria into the 3rd Reich.

The Germans named their capital ships after people not places? 
 
Please check Schlesien, Schleswig-Holstein, Emden class cruiser, Leipzig class cruiser, Nassau class battleships, Helgoland class battleships, and etc.
 
 
 
SMS Prinz Eugen, Regia Marina Eugenio di Savoia, HMS Prince Eugene, USS Prinz Eugen, and 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen.
 
 
The title did not come from the Prussian tradition?
 
Prince Eugene of Savoy (Savoy is French) was born in Paris (his parents were Italian). He transferred his loyalty to the Habsburg Monarchy in 1683.
 
Prinz Eugen was launched on August 22, 1938. During the planning and design stage, she was known as "Kreuzer J" (Cruiser J). Her keel was laid at the Krupp Germania shipyard in Kiel on April 23, 1936.
 
 
How about: SMS Prinz Adalbert - Prince Adalbert of Prussia and SMS Prinz Heinrich – Prince Heinrich of Prussia
 
 
 
Please note I use both Kaiserliche Marine and Kriegsmarine names. Some ship names were used in both WWI and WWII.
 
 
And just to head off any thoughts about Bismark (the first Chancellor of the German Empire 1871 - 1890) or Tripitz (the Secretary of State of the Imperial Naval Office 1897 - 1916).
 

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The Germans named their capital ships after people not places? 

Please check Schlesien, Schleswig-Holstein, Emden class cruiser, Leipzig class cruiser, Nassau class battleships, Helgoland class battleships, and etc.



SMS Prinz Eugen, Regia Marina Eugenio di Savoia, HMS Prince Eugene, USS Prinz Eugen, and 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen.


The title did not come from the Prussian tradition?

Prince Eugene of Savoy (Savoy is French) was born in Paris (his parents were Italian). He transferred his loyalty to the Habsburg Monarchy in 1683.

Prinz Eugen was launched on August 22, 1938. During the planning and design stage, she was known as "Kreuzer J" (Cruiser J). Her keel was laid at the Krupp Germania shipyard in Kiel on April 23, 1936.


How about: SMS Prinz Adalbert - Prince Adalbert of Prussia and SMS Prinz Heinrich – Prince Heinrich of Prussia



Please note I use both Kaiserliche Marine and Kriegsmarine names. Some ship names were used in both WWI and WWII.


And just to head off any thoughts about Bismark (the first Chancellor of the German Empire 1871 - 1890) or Tripitz (the Secretary of State of the Imperial Naval Office 1897 - 1916).

Warspite1

Schlesien and Schleswig-Holstein were pre-dreadnoughts that were left over from the Kaiser's navy. All capital ships - not cruisers - in the Kriegsmarine were named after individuals. These were mostly military figures, though not all:

Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Graf Zeppelin, Peter Strasser.

I simply wanted to ensure that the explanation I gave in the write-up matched ADG's thinking. I could not find an explanation/reason for these two names - Bevern and Moritz - and so ultimately asked Harry Rowland. He confirmed the individuals that ADG named the ships after and I reported that (see post 1667) and inserted this into the write-ups for those ships.

I don`t know what else to say.

ORIGINAL: Warspite1

Schlesien and Schleswig-Holstein were pre-dreadnoughts that were left over from the Kaiser's navy. All capital ships - not cruisers - in the Kriegsmarine were named after individuals. These were mostly military figures, though not all:

Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Graf Zeppelin, Peter Strasser.

I simply wanted to ensure that the explanation I gave in the write-up matched ADG's thinking. I could not find an explanation/reason for these two names - Bevern and Moritz - and so ultimately asked Harry Rowland. He confirmed the individuals that ADG named the ships after and I reported that (see post 1667) and inserted this into the write-ups for those ships.

I don`t know what else to say.

Since there is no ship naming convention for Kriegsmarine ships it would seem logical that Germany would follow the same conventions as the Kaiserliche Marine.

I.E. “Moritz” would be “Prinz Moritz”


Peter Strasser never had a ship named after him.


Post 1667 is by Shannon V. Okeets.

There is no mention of contacting anyone in posts 1667, 1668, and 1669.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Peter Strasser never had a ship named after him.

I think the sistership of the german aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was supposed to be named "Peter Strasser". Hull completed but never launched. If that can help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_B

Several German and other ship counters in WiF/MWiF are 'what if' units that were not built during the war but that players have the option of building during the game.

Graf Zeppelin and his sistership were built, at least partially, but not completed.

Graf Zeppelin was launched, 60% completed before work on it was stopped, even the sistership the work on it had begun, the hull was completed, but it was scrapped in 1940.