Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

Have not read the rest of your post yet...

You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.

I had a small discussion with Jocke in one of his AARs about the other hits; he was certain they were there. I tried to be conservative as I have no first-hand with SLs. I did find some discussion of a 1-5 point disruption hit for over-stacking, but uncertainty if it scaled with increased hex population.

A main goal of mine was to reject the claims made in the thread I did find that in stock a massively over-stacked Chungking will also be at zero supply. It won't be.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Horn Island - I took the base, but I needed to devote some attention to Merauke (LRCAP over Horn from here). Build up Portland Roads, put a few AE/AKEs in maxed out base, and use those old, slow BBs to crush that base with LRCAP overhead. Rinse, Repeat!! [:D]

I'm on step 1 out of 4 or 5.

Building Portland Roads, which is at level 5 now. Just sunk the ACM in the Horn Island port. Will now sweep for mines. Then I'll get a few AKE up there and start in with the old ladies. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.

I have a different view. China can be defended with SL. I've seen it done without SL, but the Japanese player definitely didn't go all in. Nick did go all-in, but he gave a few months reprieve from heavy bombing. He made up for that later. I'm sure he can tell you what mistakes he made, but I know which ones I made and they were not necessary. I could be in a somewhat better position right now had I done a few things differently tactically.

The DBB team gets it right here. Flak makes bombing well defended bases much harder, the SL make pounding one hex take longer. I don't know if there is a database change as well, but the Chinese Corps in DBB come with a good amount of AT guns, and they can hold up even the Japanese tank divisions for a time.

Against a solid player the Japanese will need at least a full year to get to Chungking (with some luck added in and without any extra supply flown in) and that's if they go full bore with everything from the start, including introducing non-restricted units into the fray. So then we have to start talking opportunity costs. With extra supply they might not make it at all.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

Have not read the rest of your post yet...

You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.

I had a small discussion with Jocke in one of his AARs about the other hits; he was certain they were there. I tried to be conservative as I have no first-hand with SLs. I did find some discussion of a 1-5 point disruption hit for over-stacking, but uncertainty if it scaled with increased hex population.

A main goal of mine was to reject the claims made in the thread I did find that in stock a massively over-stacked Chungking will also be at zero supply. It won't be.

I can attest to the increased disruption and fatigue as results of overstacking. I'll show some examples soon, as I happen to be in an overstacked position right now.

The key with SL is to plan for retreats. I often have moved rear units out of the next hex back in the case of a retreat in a forward hex. Of course you can't always plan where units will retreat and that's when things get dicey. There is a bit of luck involved as we know. [;)]

PS - Also, the resurrection rule does apply to Chengtu. If you own it but not Chungking units in the Chinese queue will be spawned there including zombies.

Sorry, he didn't go all in. He went to India.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Without taking away from your very good play in China, GJ has let you off the mat. It's odd too, as the thread I read was his, started in his game with Q-Ball when he was on the other side. He's thought about Chungking sieges a lot. But here he screwed the pooch. Your screen shot shows how badly he failed to build the needed AFs to do Chungking well. At this point, given you have open hexsides, supply, and can operate a 150-plane CAP in mid-China (!!!) with 3rd gen fighters, he should give up on Chungking, withdraw to a defense line, and wait for you. SLs do work well in the bush, forcing a maneuver war. He can use that for a time. The one place they're crippling is Chungking.

I think he's simply played a different kind of war here. He's moving to contain, separate then squeeze, like a python, rather than a quick viper's strike. (At least after the debacle in Sian in early 42).

In not building more big airfields he may be thinking of his supply constraints, and those might dictate some things, the PDU-off might dictate others. To be fair, hitting Chungking is not as easy as in a stock game. I've had CAP here intermittently throughout the game, often including very good airframes that he'd have to overwhelm with numbers. He's done that on occasions, and he probably should have hit the industry, but we do have HRs on strat bombing allowing onl manpower attacks and an increasing scale of bombers for night strikes, (50 for 42 and 100 in 43). I know you're not a fan of HRs but this one will help the Japanese more than me over the course of the game, I'd say.

Even the comparatively poor Chinese AA will do some damage. He loses several planes a day from 15k when bombing Chungking with 100 2E, and gets decent hits on the fields but not as much on the manpower. (This still hurts me, as the AA takes a good bunch of supply).

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Strat bombing:

manpower strikes allowed during daylight
manpower strikes allowed during night with sliding scale:

25 planes/target in 41
50 planes/target in 42
100 planes/target in 43
200 planes/target in 44
400 planes/target in 45-46. [/font]

In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game. Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

To use your list you'd have to have some different conditions than the DBB game we're playing. These are very good ideas, and other than the strat bombing, similar to how I took China in my two games as Japan. I'll tackle this out of order as some things require explanation first to get to the others.

6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.

In DBB the Chinese have 37mm AT guns in most big Corps to start as well as two independent units with these guns. It makes a big difference. They won't kill as many tanks as I'd like, but they do damage them, and that ends up making him rotate units and rest others, taking time.

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period. That's one division or one tank division with some arty. That's all. The Chinese can put 500AV in each hex and build a few forts. It often takes a month to blast through each hex with concentrated air power and bombardments, plus rotating units in and out.

3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.

The Chinese air force never fights in China. It moves to India immediately. There they train and take a rear CAP role. The bombers hunt subs.

The AVG moves into China as opportunity allows. If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.

After the first battle of Sain, Nick did leave both of these alone until he could no longer leave Changsha. That base gets a ton of supply and can rebuild units, supply the areas around it and also support the air infusions of the AVG right in the middle of the country where they can strike any number of areas.

5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.

Not necessary, as supply moves well from Shanghai into central China. Wastes fuel. Also, if my opponent was doing this I would have sunk those xAKL if Changsha was left untaken.

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines. Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.

For all of the above reasons you never will get there in two months. Or four months. Or six months. In SL it takes much longer with good play. Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking. Then even it's difficult to close all hex sides.

Another issue with the quickness of your schedule is that the IJA doesn't have the components of the tank divisions to buy out immediately from Manchuria. They come throughout the beginning of 42 and into April or around there. You don't have tank divisions in the beginning and the little regiments can't hold up to sustained combat.

Right now Nick is fighting with a maxed hex between Kweiyang and Chungking, and none of the four Corps there are full of supply (one has none). Only three of the four have forts built. Yet still in two attacks he's gotten negative results costing 300+ disabled infantry squads to about 50 for the Chinese. This is even with air strikes and very experienced Japanese units. One of my units is a zombie with no arty at all even, but I wanted to see how the Chinese 43 squads would do. Seems like they're good! [:)]

If I had an air bridge it wouldn't even matter that he takes out the industry at Chungking. I just keep applying more transports as they arrive.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Sorry, he didn't go all in. He went to India.

I see what you're trying to say, but in SL it's just a different game. More troops wouldn't necessarily have made things go more quickly. With SL it's not advisable to get stuck in a non-road hex with equal numbers. It leads to stalemate as was the case in several places in 42.

So your best bet is to go with road hexes where supply movement allows you to bombard daily, DA as often as disruption and fatigue will allow, and to be able to quickly rotate fresh units in and out. This is the main feature of SL (and DBB) that is different than in stock, and I think closer to a real situation. Your can't go around, you can't break through quickly, so you have to grind it out.

He had enough units to always have fresh ones in the rear along each thrust path. The number of good troops was not the problem, and he did use ALL of the tanks here (other than a few 50AV regiments in OZ and India). He used seemingly every big arty gun available from Manchuria.

He used all of the IJAAF 2E bomber forces after the initial SRA and PI areas were taken. He used a number of expert IJN fighter and bomber groups, to the point where the So Pac and Cent Pac areas were thin and I was able to move there. Some of the air force was in India, fighters of course, but not a lot of bombers, and not much in OZ. He didn't need them there.

China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

THIS:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The key with SL is to plan for retreats.

ORIGINAL: obvert

I have a different view. China can be defended with SL. I've seen it done without SL, but the Japanese player definitely didn't go all in.

Not against evenly-matched players.

Nick did go all-in,

No, he didn't. Not to mention the HR which hamstrung him.

but he gave a few months reprieve from heavy bombing. He made up for that later. I'm sure he can tell you what mistakes he made, but I know which ones I made and they were not necessary. I could be in a somewhat better position right now had I done a few things differently tactically.

The DBB team gets it right here. Flak makes bombing well defended bases much harder,

The flak changes are available outside DBB. We're playing with them. Not decisive.

the SL make pounding one hex take longer.

This is what I see over and over. Japan players who go into the bush after the Chinese. All this talk of MLRs. Poo. I'm saying use your mobility. Don't pound, go around. Tanks. They haven't got any. I'm talking RIGHJT AWAY. Not in the summer. Not after they get organized.

I don't know if there is a database change as well, but the Chinese Corps in DBB come with a good amount of AT guns, and they can hold up even the Japanese tank divisions for a time.

Chinese corps in stock Scenario 1 have between 7 and 8 working 37mm AT guns per. They just don't have the leadership or training to use them. They're there. The IJA tanks eat them for lunch. I doubt DBB went into that. It's not an EXE mod. And the tanks can easily outrun the corps.

Against a solid player the Japanese will need at least a full year to get to Chungking

Baloney. Show me an ARR where Japan DIDN'T go for Sian or Changsha. Show me one where they did what I'm talking about. They all go head-to-head in bad terrain. Over and over.

(with some luck added in and without any extra supply flown in) and that's if they go full bore with everything from the start, including introducing non-restricted units into the fray. So then we have to start talking opportunity costs. With extra supply they might not make it at all.

I'm with the Moose on this one. Well, and every time it comes up. If the map looks like this in China in 1943... it's Japan's fault. Always. In this game, GJ took a boneheaded route to Sian and you caught him on it.

Also, you say he used the entire IJAAF available to him here... if so, he didn't take advantage of that. The proximate cause here could be his plans for India. Where's all his armor? It went to India, right? I understand that the Chinese have some AT weapons in DBB, but as Japan you can still deal with that.


Granted our game has no SLs, but there's no reason GJ couldn't have been where I was on Feb 2, 1942, given the amount of time it took me to get organized to get Liuchow/Kweilin/Kweiyang:


It took me ~2 weeks longer than it should have to get this far. I was distracted with some of the SRA, and in retrospect I didn't need to put the effort in down there, even if it meant delays.

You have to get to the central valley as soon as possible. You can mop up later. I made the mistake of mopping up too much before hitting Chungking, but in a SL game that would be exactly the correct course of action.

ORIGINAL: obvert

I think he's simply played a different kind of war here. He's moving to contain, separate then squeeze, like a python, rather than a quick viper's strike. (At least after the debacle in Sian in early 42).

Which he targeted, so right away not what I'm talking about.

In not building more big airfields he may be thinking of his supply constraints, and those might dictate some things, the PDU-off might dictate others. To be fair, hitting Chungking is not as easy as in a stock game. I've had CAP here intermittently throughout the game, often including very good airframes that he'd have to overwhelm with numbers. He's done that on occasions, and he probably should have hit the industry, but we do have HRs on strat bombing allowing onl manpower attacks and an increasing scale of bombers for night strikes, (50 for 42 and 100 in 43). I know you're not a fan of HRs but this one will help the Japanese more than me over the course of the game, I'd say.

Not in China.

You're still not getting it. First 2-3 months. You have no good airframes. The Chinese air force is wiped, or in your case runs away. The AVG in stock starts with crap planes, and there is no AF in Asia over level 4. None. You can't upgrade to P-40Es anywhere, you can't fly out and replace. But the P-40E pool starts at zero anyway. Goose egg. And you might want a few at Pearl. And even the mighty AVG starts at 55 EXP and 55 Morale. Did DBB make them magical somehow? And even if you get them in they're three small squadrons. Zeros can certainly give them a run and attrit them. After they're gone (and they withdraw on July 4th, 1942 I think) what have you got? Hurricanes? Big pools there. And a long, long trip in from India.

You've got CAP in central China now because he let you. He had the tools to prevent it. He used them elsewhere.

Even the comparatively poor Chinese AA will do some damage. He loses several planes a day from 15k when bombing Chungking with 100 2E, and gets decent hits on the fields but not as much on the manpower. (This still hurts me, as the AA takes a good bunch of supply).

And he let you have open hexsides. This is the key.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Strat bombing:

manpower strikes allowed during daylight
manpower strikes allowed during night with sliding scale:

25 planes/target in 41
50 planes/target in 42
100 planes/target in 43
200 planes/target in 44
400 planes/target in 45-46. [/font]

In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game.

Calcutta has 500 LI and 520 HI in stock. But only 60 Resources and no Fuel. An Allied player can isolate it industrially pretty easily. If all you want from India is Calcutta, do go. It's a huge waste of effort, shipping, fuel, various types of Japanese points, and time.

Chungking has about 500 points of both industries, and more Resources. It's a lot closer too.

Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

Calcutta supply has to be moved out to be of any use. It doesn't natively help R&D except as a substitute perhaps. And a lot of what it makes is eaten defending itself.

To use your list you'd have to have some different conditions than the DBB game we're playing. These are very good ideas, and other than the strat bombing, similar to how I took China in my two games as Japan. I'll tackle this out of order as some things require explanation first to get to the others.

6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.

In DBB the Chinese have 37mm AT guns in most big Corps to start as well as two independent units with these guns. It makes a big difference. They won't kill as many tanks as I'd like, but they do damage them, and that ends up making him rotate units and rest others, taking time.

Already addressed this. Stock has internal AT guns too.

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

Again, heavy brush bad for tanks, good for Chinese. Don't play his game. Go around, or go through on road hexes. Follow up with infantry to mop up and keep supply corridor open.

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period.

You can if you get there first. Period.

That's one division or one tank division with some arty. That's all. The Chinese can put 500AV in each hex and build a few forts. It often takes a month to blast through each hex with concentrated air power and bombardments, plus rotating units in and out.

Again, first 2-3 months. If they take the whole western starting establishment and put it in the mountains it starves. They must hold Kunming or it's over. It's only three hexes to Tsuyung from there. SL means "costs more supply." It doesn't mean the SL limit is absolute. The Japanese can overstack in the attack and pay the price for a short time. They'll have Kunming at their backs and the Chinese have nothing worthwhile until Mandalay. that's a lot of supply waste if Mandalay even can forward any. It has it's own problems.

3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.

The Chinese air force never fights in China. It moves to India immediately. There they train and take a rear CAP role. The bombers hunt subs.

So no air force. Gottcha.

The AVG moves into China as opportunity allows.

Already covered. No AVG. Your mention of the P-40K again shows you're not getting the time frame.

If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.

After the first battle of Sain, Nick did leave both of these alone until he could no longer leave Changsha. That base gets a ton of supply and can rebuild units, supply the areas around it and also support the air infusions of the AVG right in the middle of the country where they can strike any number of areas.

In stock it starts with 22 points of productive industry, and 160/day organic. Whee! A party! It has about 200 points damaged. Gonna repair that? Did DBB make Changsha an industrial powerhouse?

5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.

Not necessary, as supply moves well from Shanghai into central China. Wastes fuel. Also, if my opponent was doing this I would have sunk those xAKL if Changsha was left untaken.

With what? Your air force ran away. In stock you get a handful of Hudsons, but they can't hit a mountain let alone a ship. If you don't like it fine, but the devs had the AI do it. Big supply closer is always better than big supply farther.

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines.

Weeks, not months. And moving they have no forts.

Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

If Japan lets you.

8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.

For all of the above reasons you never will get there in two months. Or four months. Or six months. In SL it takes much longer with good play.

If Japan is fighting whatever China offers it's not good play, no.

Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking.

I strenuously disagree. SL didn't change the basic model. It didn't change device stats. It didn't change leadership or the woeful training and disablement rate of the initial Chinese army. It doesn't give China an air force. It doesn't give them one tank. It makes defending in rough terrain easier. That's it. If Japan insists on ramming itself into rough terrain then, yeah SL is harder. But if Japan doesn't go to India, does strip the M. Garrison of non-AV support units, and does invest in proper air power, it's not a year. Not even close.

Then even it's difficult to close all hex sides.

If you HR removing Chungking's industry it's harder. It's not impossible with the right mix, armor-heavy.

Right now Nick is fighting with a maxed hex between Kweiyang and Chungking, and none of the four Corps there are full of supply (one has none). Only three of the four have forts built. Yet still in two attacks he's gotten negative results costing 300+ disabled infantry squads to about 50 for the Chinese. This is even with air strikes and very experienced Japanese units. One of my units is a zombie with no arty at all even, but I wanted to see how the Chinese 43 squads would do. Seems like they're good! [:)]

If I had an air bridge it wouldn't even matter that he takes out the industry at Chungking. I just keep applying more transports as they arrive.

You really need to look at arrival dates and locations and carrying capacity of the available transports in 1942. Replace 500 production points? Not gonna happen. (Not to mention that the monsoon can run Ledo supply to nothing on occasion.)

ORIGINAL: obvert


China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

It's not DBB that allows you to run 150-Hellcat CAPS over central China in mid-1943.

Is DBB/SL the new "you play the AI" sneer?

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

Well, let me qualify a bit. Even with supply good Japanese play is going to eventually drive the Allies into Chungking, Lanchow and the mountains around Kumming, which in my opinion might be good enough and all they should try to do. But what I am really referring to is to totally knock China out of the war. In both of my campaigns it has been the case of me retreating into the mountains to the West and then using transports from India to keep some supply flow. However, in our second go around Viberpol has invaded India far enough to cut that flow. So, the question will be just like Obvert can I hold out in China until I run him out of India. If not I will eventually collapse as there is only a trickle of supply coming out of Kumming. However with stacking limits the Japanese really can't totally eliminate the Chinese if they have supply. I am talking with PDU off here. A good Japanese player can still take China out with or without SL. I know because Ark almost did it last game without invading India and will come damn close this one even with SL in play. And I think I have a pretty good grip on Allied play so he is not having an easy time of it.

However, as long as the Allies put up a good fight, I don't consider China to hold much strategic value for Japan. Last til mid 43 and it does not matter if you lose China or not. He will have already paid too much for it.

I'm not saying moving to India as Japan is the 'correct' strategy. I'm simply saying you're wrong about China being so easy you can get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Oh, I get your timeframe. I also get that you don't apparently know the SL map or much about the Japanese OOB.

Your points are valid in theory, but not in practice in DBB with SL and in PDU-off. That is not a slight toward you, just an objective statement, so don't turn it into something personal.

You are not looking at the practicality of statements like 'get there first' in regard to the mountains, or 'go around' the blockades. Until you play with SL and in DBB it's just not going to make sense to you why these things won't work. I can say it, but you have to see it and play it to know how someone might play against you.

You can't 'get there first' if you can't get through the first blocks. Even if you do there is another one up the road. As you work on that one more form behind it. When you try to go around it takes time to walk into rough forest hexes, and a whole lot more time for armor to go there. In fact it's a to slower to go off road, and you're the one not getting the timeframe. Try moving units off road virtually from below Tuyun to Kweiyang in order to bypass there. At 4 hexes a day that's almost two weeks to get to your first hex. Then two weeks to get out. Guess what joins you there once you're in it. The Chinese!

Once you start going the Chinese simply start as well, and you end up both maxing the hex and it's a stalemate the same as on the road, but less supply and slower movement, so you can't rotate units.

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You're still not getting it. First 2-3 months. You have no good airframes. The Chinese air force is wiped, or in your case runs away. The AVG in stock starts with crap planes, and there is no AF in Asia over level 4. None. You can't upgrade to P-40Es anywhere, you can't fly out and replace. But the P-40E pool starts at zero anyway. Goose egg. And you might want a few at Pearl. And even the mighty AVG starts at 55 EXP and 55 Morale. Did DBB make them magical somehow? And even if you get them in they're three small squadrons. Zeros can certainly give them a run and attrit them. After they're gone (and they withdraw on July 4th, 1942 I think) what have you got? Hurricanes? Big pools there. And a long, long trip in from India.

You've got CAP in central China now because he let you. He had the tools to prevent it. He used them elsewhere.

You're getting a bit extreme in your lack of ability to see clearly here. I know you're more creative than this. You're good enough at rhetoric, but you don't seem to be seeing the other side! On top of that I sense the rudeness of frustration popping in. Magical? [;)] [:D]

You're not getting it because you haven't played the Japanese side, and you haven't played with SL ,and you haven't played with PDU-off.

As you well understand the AVG gets early kills against poor quality Nates and Oscars and becomes a good set of fighter groups. I think this is fairly standard WITP knowledge and practice. (Oh, and it happened in the war, too).

The H81-A3 in DBB is a decent plane which at 345mph is faster than any of the contemporary Japanese fighters, has two centerline 50 cal and has armor.

Are you getting my timeframe yet?

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game.

Calcutta has 500 LI and 520 HI in stock. But only 60 Resources and no Fuel. An Allied player can isolate it industrially pretty easily. If all you want from India is Calcutta, do go. It's a huge waste of effort, shipping, fuel, various types of Japanese points, and time.

Chungking has about 500 points of both industries, and more Resources. It's a lot closer too.

Huh. Maybe you're forgetting Ledo, with 75 oil and 75 refinery? Have a look at Jamshedpur and Asanol, both three hexes away. A total of 1,000 resource points between them.

Why am I even answering this rubbish when you don't even bother to look at the map? [:D]

Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

Calcutta supply has to be moved out to be of any use. It doesn't natively help R&D except as a substitute perhaps. And a lot of what it makes is eaten defending itself.

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

Again, heavy brush bad for tanks, good for Chinese. Don't play his game. Go around, or go through on road hexes. Follow up with infantry to mop up and keep supply corridor open.

Already addressed this. Try out your armor now through that rough forest hex. Do you somehow get them to move faster than I can?

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period.

You can if you get there first. Period.

Again. How? Maybe you'd like to count it out for me? The Chinese start with several big Corps in Chungking to move down if they please. Where will you go with big enough SL to overwhelm them? Where will you go to get around them that they can't simply move into that same hex and stop you?

Again, first 2-3 months. If they take the whole western starting establishment and put it in the mountains it starves. They must hold Kunming or it's over. It's only three hexes to Tsuyung from there. SL means "costs more supply." It doesn't mean the SL limit is absolute. The Japanese can overstack in the attack and pay the price for a short time. They'll have Kunming at their backs and the Chinese have nothing worthwhile until Mandalay. that's a lot of supply waste if Mandalay even can forward any. It has it's own problems.

You don't make it to Kunming for a good while longer. It took Nick more than a month a hex with a full tank division and a tank brigade (maxed hex) up there, supported by heavy air strikes. He even had trouble with several x2 hexes because during the first months to get to them the Chinese were able to dig.

Okay. So have you tried overstacking and attacking in a x3 hex against dug-in troops?

Overstacking means your units may end up fighting at higher disruption, fatigue and lower supply than their Chinese counterparts. Basically, like a river crossing. But with less supply. The effect increases as you get farther over the limit. Good luck.

So no air force. Gottcha.

Gotcha? [&:]

The AVG moves into China as opportunity allows.

Already covered. No AVG. Your mention of the P-40K again shows you're not getting the time frame.

You may notice the Tojo. Looking ahead here, as your timeframe simply doesn't work.

If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines.

Weeks, not months. And moving they have no forts.

Huh? Have you never seen the Chinese scatter and get away? You start turn one. All leave the plains and go to x3 territory. A few die.

Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

If Japan lets you.

Key word. Die.

Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking.

I strenuously disagree. SL didn't change the basic model. It didn't change device stats. It didn't change leadership or the woeful training and disablement rate of the initial Chinese army. It doesn't give China an air force. It doesn't give them one tank. It makes defending in rough terrain easier. That's it. If Japan insists on ramming itself into rough terrain then, yeah SL is harder. But if Japan doesn't go to India, does strip the M. Garrison of non-AV support units, and does invest in proper air power, it's not a year. Not even close.

Play it. It changes a lot if you work with it. You'll probably like it. But you'll never say I told you so! [:D]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.

Yep, the issue is time and I agree fully. Move fast, block Sian, Ignore the North and drive balls for leather for Chungking. However, in my book I then diverge. Surround Chungking with enough to hold it and then drive West while pushing from Burma. The reason is that any forces to the West are now almost fully out of supply if Chungking and Chentu have been islolated. Take Kumming and Paoshan and the air bridge does not matter no matter what the year. Once you have done this you can kill off the rest of China at your leisure. No a real hurry either. But you are right, the key is airpower. Close the bases to the West and no Allied first generation fighter can move into China. You won't even need fighter escort for your bombers.

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

It's not DBB that allows you to run 150-Hellcat CAPS over central China in mid-1943.

Is DBB/SL the new "you play the AI" sneer?

[:D]

No. As you know I defend the knowledge and skill of several players who used to be maligned for only playing the AI. Usually including you, but I'm starting to wonder here. [:D]

Why is it personal to you that this mod might be a tougher game than the one you're playing? Why would you imagine I was saying that with a sneer? I didn't make the mod and have no investment in it. I'm just playing a game. My intent here is to argue that Nick could not have done what you suggest with at least decent play from my side.

In spite of the low blow, I am trying to stay within an objective framework and that includes areas you refuse to acknowledge.

You can argue all you want. You just have so little actual basis to go on it's laughable. I haven't even mentioned the fact that in the first few months of the war timeframe you're talking about the SRA has to be taken. Any ideas about how to do that while you're going all-in for China with a Japanese blitzkrieg that doesn't have the armor you need for another few months?

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

This is really funny to me. I actually have played the Japanese side pretty well in China. I actually made almost exactly the moves Bull is advocating and you're supporting. I still didn't get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Either time. I did wreck China and once made a truce so the game could continue, the other time took everything but Paoshan. I had Chungking in early 43.

I know how to do it. I'm simply saying I couldn't do what I did with SL in play and with the DBB air fixes and with PDU-off. I simply could not have gotten to Chungking in 2-3 months.

Nick is a very good payer taking on a hard task with PDU-off and its ridiculous to say he could have done what Bullwinkle is suggesting. he could have done more, sure. He might have gotten Chungking sooner than now. But not in 2-3 months. I think you know that too.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, let me qualify a bit. Even with supply good Japanese play is going to eventually drive the Allies into Chungking, Lanchow and the mountains around Kumming, which in my opinion might be good enough and all they should try to do. But what I am really referring to is to totally knock China out of the war. In both of my campaigns it has been the case of me retreating into the mountains to the West and then using transports from India to keep some supply flow. However, in our second go around Viberpol has invaded India far enough to cut that flow. So, the question will be just like Obvert can I hold out in China until I run him out of India. If not I will eventually collapse as there is only a trickle of supply coming out of Kumming. However with stacking limits the Japanese really can't totally eliminate the Chinese if they have supply. I am talking with PDU off here. A good Japanese player can still take China out with or without SL. I know because Ark almost did it last game without invading India and will come damn close this one even with SL in play. And I think I have a pretty good grip on Allied play so he is not having an easy time of it.

However, as long as the Allies put up a good fight, I don't consider China to hold much strategic value for Japan. Last til mid 43 and it does not matter if you lose China or not. He will have already paid too much for it.

I think invading far enough to cut the air bridge is pretty far for the results you describe. It's way, way out on a Japanese limb given the land upgrades the Allies get to squads and armor by mid-1943.

I agree on Chungking. I don't know the exact date in 1943 where the tilt happens, but it's there. Six months ago it would have been an auto-vic disaster. Now it would just be major surgery without happy juice to come back from.

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm not saying moving to India as Japan is the 'correct' strategy. I'm simply saying you're wrong about China being so easy you can get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Oh, I get your timeframe. I also get that you don't apparently know the SL map or much about the Japanese OOB.

I stopped reading at the fourth insult.

Have a nice day.