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BG

I know you keep apologising for your English but you write it better than many English people do these days.

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

BG

I know you keep apologising for your English but you write it better than many English people do these days.

Thank you sillyflower - my face reddens.

But I can't help feeling that sometimes, when I intervene on these forums, I read like the proverbial cossack cavalry with sabres and all. If I have ever offended anyone, please accept my apologies.

So basically at the moment, for the German player to have the power to make any offensives at the end of the 41-42 winter in a Pbem, the best scenario to play in a Pbem is the 42-45 one until the game is fixed/balanced ?

Lowlander

ORIGINAL: Lowlander2010
So basically at the moment, for the German player to have the power to make any offensives at the end of the 41-42 winter in a Pbem, the best scenario to play is the 42-45 one until the game is fixed/balanced ?

An alternative would be:

* Making as much as possible - as Q-Ball did - to disrupt Soviet winter offensive during the snow turns.
* Realizing that keeping a linear defense on the open, forgoing the effects of blizzard and the role of towns, is a bad idea.
* And noting that if you have a stack with a decreasing CV value with three stacks next to it with steady CV's, which happen to be combined three times the value of the defending unit, that one is a battle which will be likely lost for the defender.

I really can't understand why people can't - at the very least - keep a minimum of confidence on the work of the game designers. They've been working on this game for years. Literally. Asking for changes in the rules without having played out those rules is premature.

Bugs are one thing - but this looks to me as WAD.

So basically at the moment, for the German player to have the power to make any offensives at the end of the 41-42 winter in a Pbem, the best scenario to play in a Pbem is the 42-45 one until the game is fixed/balanced ?

No. The majority of the Axis players, Q-Ball included, try an ahistorical "holding the line" defence and expect it to work. It won't, and it shouldn't. If you want to be able to attack in spring/summer, you have a few options:

-Rotate troops through cities, as described in the quote from Solon on the previous page. The main disadvantage with this, and one Solon might not have seen, is that even though your troops stay at a good TOE%, they will suffer a morale loss each turn, so you'll end up with lots of reasonable strength units but with mediocre morale.

-Form hedgehogs to discourage Soviet attacks and slowly retreat, minimizing Soviet attacks. You'll take regular morale and attrition losses.

-Hide in cities/high population towns and let the Soviets roam through the countryside, possibly with some Axis hedgehogs in place to make sure they don't overrun the entire front. The main threat will be having positions be encircled, but attrition and morale losses will be low.

-Minimize the amount of units at or near the front, and rail a part of your army either out of the blizzard zone or to cities. This is risky as the Soviets might break through decisively, but you have a guarantee that you'll have good morale units in spring. Games started pre-morale patch will benefit the most from this, as you'll have 90-99 morale/experience units in spring.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
-Rotate troops through cities, as described in the quote from Solon on the previous page. The main disadvantage with this, and one Solon might not have seen, is that even though your troops stay at a good TOE%, they will suffer a morale loss each turn, so you'll end up with lots of reasonable strength units but with mediocre morale.

That was one insightful observation, ComradeP. I'll pass the word.

Rotating troops is probably best employed with units close to the national morale, who don't have a lot to lose. The logistics phase in the city after rotating, where they don't take morale/attrition losses will bump them back to the national morale level if they end up a couple of points below it.

Doing so with 80-90 morale units will just make their morale go down the drain like every other exposed unit.

Thank god for people such as Bletchley_Geek - just read his posts about playing as Germans in the Blizzard rounds - he is spot on. I have been practising these very same methods against PC and they have worked a dream. Add to that a pursuit of the Soviets in the snow by the Panzers and a forming of a front back from such forces by infantry and then a massive retreat by Panzers just prior to the Blizzard - this gives you a couple of turn buffer before the Soviets can reach your main line in mass.

There are some very good comments here. I think we all want a great game, so I want to respond to them.

First, I don't want my experience to come off as whining. Frankly with all the moving parts in this game engine, it is extraordinarily difficult to hit all the right levers perfectly. So I acknowledge it will take awhile to get it "right". WITP took 6 years and a whole new release to get "closer" to "right", and it's still tricky. So it's a challenge.

That being said, a few responses:

RE: TACTICS, I am using basically a LINEBACKER defense, based on Bob's experiences and feedback from other players. CARNAGE INC specifically had alot of trouble with Checkerboard, and recommended the LINEBACKER. This is a linear defense strategy, with units "backing up" the line and digging successive trench lines. Maybe it's wrong.

As far As CITIES, every CITY and TOWN near the front is occupied every turn. I haven't rotated units in and out as much it is true, mostly because I have kept Panzers in the cities and the Infantry in the open. I have begun to rotate a few units back to Dnepropetrovsk and way off the line, though this has been difficult for two reasons:
1. Line falling apart; tough to pull units, and
2. I made it pretty far into the Soviet Union, in a couple places (AGN, Far South) further than historical. As a result, my RR network was not that strong near the front (it's much better now, with another month of building)

So, I've been using all Cities/Towns within 10 hexes of front line.

Perhaps a CHECKERBOARD would have been better. I am loathe to just surrender territory, though, not because I need the ground per se, but I don't want to give-up the FORTS without a fight. Is my thinking correct?

I also have to acknowledge my opponent did a good job husbanding his armies. He did a "sir Robin" basically through the first 12 turns, and maybe that is the correct strategy, rather than standing and fighting, for the Russians.

Comrade P makes some good points, but I have to respectfully disagree with this comment:

"The majority of the Axis players, Q-Ball included, try an ahistorical "holding the line" defence and expect it to work. It won't, and it shouldn't."

I'm not saying MY fixed defense should work, but at some point, a fixed defense should work.....because that is EXACTLY what the Germans did historically. They certainly didn't form strategic hedgehogs and willingly yield whole sectors.

The Germans lost alot of ground in December, but their defense strengthened in January, to where they basically halted the Soviets at Rhzev. The Germans even launched several counterattacks, which, among other things, resulted in the cutting off and destruction of 2nd Shock Army. You can also argue that the Germans were dangerously overextended heading into the winter to begin with in front of Moscow.

In the game, the Germans are unable to stabilize defense lines in January, and unable to launch significant counterattacks in the Blizzard. Even if you prepare for the Winter, you are punished because the historical Germans failed to. This is wrong, because otherwise we have to make the Soviet player get more troops encircled, because the historical Soviets did that.

This is a great game and I will be continuing this one, and I hope the Wehrmacht bounces back for a big Summer '42 push. It's just going to start somewhere pretty far back from the front, that's for sure!

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

also have 176,000 Men in the German Manpower Pool, with ZERO Armaments. We have no Rifles. This is with the 100K extra from the Patch.

What is the "rifle squad" pool figure? These are the rifles that will equip rifle squads, not actual squads or damaged squads awaiting repair, which is what I thought this figure was until Joel clarified it for me.

To answer your question Bob, the RIFLE SQUAD pool is empty. All force pools are at 5 or less, except for Labor Squads and 105mm AA guns. (Labor Squads because of all the Fort Zones I have disbanded; the Rifles/Mortars from those were all "Recycled")

EDIT: There are also 10,870 Support Squads in the German Pool.

This turn, it's 180,800 in the Manpower Pool, so it's growing, this turn by about 5,000. ARMAMENTS are Zero. These numbers are all German Pool Only. The Axis Allies all have enough Armament Points.

So basically, I don't have enough Armament Points to equip the Manpower.

There is a huge amount of churn going on, as I added about 625,000 troops to Front-Line German Units this turn! That's alot. I'm sure that was a huge number of recycled damaged units.

Hope that helps, let me know if there are any other numbers you need.

To answer your question Bob, the RIFLE SQUAD pool is empty.

Hmmmm.... then I think this needs looking at - I will post in the development forum.

I also noticed a lot more returning troops to front line units in my latest play in beta5 over the weekend. I don't have empirical evidence, but the numbers seemed far higher than previously. Perhaps this accounted for some of the units behind the lines in towns achieving 3 or 4 CV in feb?

here is a huge amount of churn going on, as I added about 625,000 troops to Front-Line German Units this turn!

I have seen this on the third turn of blizzard as the units damaged on the first turn get repaired, and this may have sucked the equipment out of the "rifle squad" pool. It could be a result of the first blizzard turn spike, that I have asked Joel to tone down. Hopefully it will settle down over the next 2-3 turns. The next focal point will be the first turn in March when the blizzard damage stops.

There is a possibility that artillery replacements are chewing up your armaments points, so you might want to consider reducing the TOE% on the artillery SUs so armaments are freed up for the infantry.

I hope that reference to "whining" hasn't been something with the wording of my posts. If so, please, accept my apologies: I wouldn't ever dream of qualifying such a player like you as a "whiner".

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
RE: TACTICS, I am using basically a LINEBACKER defense, based on Bob's experiences and feedback from other players. CARNAGE INC specifically had alot of trouble with Checkerboard, and recommended the LINEBACKER. This is a linear defense strategy, with units "backing up" the line and digging successive trench lines. Maybe it's wrong.

Checkerboards aren't meant to hold ground, but to delay. Using them correctly requires to plan in advance where you Main Line of Resistance will lie, and progressively retreat the checkerboard towards that line.

Linebacker looks like the way to go for the Wehrmacht in 1943, where weather is not so much of an issue. The problem with using it in Winter 1941 - or for that matter in 1943 - comes from the fact that you'll be presenting your opponent with very easy "battles" that bolster his morale. Last patches have partially addressed this, by making harder to retain that morale. Redmarkus Winter Offensive, conducted with a painfully adherence to historicity, worked so well because those Russian units got lots of easy victories. The higher the morale level, the longer it takes for Soviet units to become unready: something that will eventually happen given the grisly losses the Soviets have on the attack.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
1. Line falling apart; tough to pull units, and
2. I made it pretty far into the Soviet Union, in a couple places (AGN, Far South) further than historical. As a result, my RR network was not that strong near the front (it's much better now, with another month of building)

Without a line to ditch, it wouldn't have been tough to pull units out. About overextending... well, that's entirely optional, I think.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Perhaps a CHECKERBOARD would have been better. I am loathe to just surrender territory, though, not because I need the ground per se, but I don't want to give-up the FORTS without a fight. Is my thinking correct?

Forts can be easily rebuilt later on and they cannot move at all. Units aren't easy to rebuild and they can move. Forts are important, but units matter most, imho.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I also have to acknowledge my opponent did a good job husbanding his armies. He did a "sir Robin" basically through the first 12 turns, and maybe that is the correct strategy, rather than standing and fighting, for the Russians.

I'd like to note that from the point of view of an Axis player, an unsuccessful Soviet defense can look like a Polkovodets Robinovich. You can't expect - nor force - a rational opponent who is smart enough to recognize that he's been outmarched and outfought to hold to an untenable position.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I'm not saying MY fixed defense should work, but at some point, a fixed defense should work.....because that is EXACTLY what the Germans did historically. They certainly didn't form strategic hedgehogs and willingly yield whole sectors.

They weren't willing: they were forced to. By the Russian attacks and the murderous weather.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
The Germans lost alot of ground in December, but their defense strengthened in January, to where they basically halted the Soviets at Rhzev. The Germans even launched several counterattacks, which, among other things, resulted in the cutting off and destruction of 2nd Shock Army. You can also argue that the Germans were dangerously overextended heading into the winter to begin with in front of Moscow.

In the game, the Germans are unable to stabilize defense lines in January, and unable to launch significant counterattacks in the Blizzard. Even if you prepare for the Winter, you are punished because the historical Germans failed to. This is wrong, because otherwise we have to make the Soviet player get more troops encircled, because the historical Soviets did that.

2nd Shock Army - Vlassov's - was cut off much later on west of the Volkhov river, on March-April, during a unsuccessful operation to open up a land route to Leningrad. What was cutoff and destroyed - in early April, I think - were the 33rd Armiya and the Airborne troops that drew a wedge north of Orel. Not to mention the fact that many german positions were surrounded and kept alive through air resupply - Kholm, Demjansk come to my mind.

Of course you need to have a line somewhere, but it doesn't need to look like a "line". ZOCs and units in reserve can make a line as well.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
This is a great game and I will be continuing this one, and I hope the Wehrmacht bounces back for a big Summer '42 push. It's just going to start somewhere pretty far back from the front, that's for sure!

The one thing I love about WiTE design is that nothing is set in stone, besides the weather (and not even that, that's optional). The Soviet wants a Winter Offensive? Make sure to delay the Germans enough and preserve your forces and unvaluable industrial assets. The German wants a historical - or better than historical - '42 summer offensive? Make sure to preserve your army when the weather - the greatest friend of the Wehrmacht during June to October 1941 - leaves you, literally, out in the cold to die.

"The majority of the Axis players, Q-Ball included, try an ahistorical "holding the line" defence and expect it to work. It won't, and it shouldn't."

Historically, the Germans could reform their lines because the Soviets ran out of steam due to poor logistics and a rather optimistic plan that came down to the destruction of the fighting power of at least AGN and AGC. There's no incentive for the Soviet player to make poorly supported/supplied advances, some into the middle of nowhere (the huge advance on the AGN/AGC boundary), in December. They can just slowly steamroll the Axis lines. You'd essentially be facing the situation the Axis faced in December for the entire blizzard until the Soviets run out of steam. That's why literally holding a line won't work, because any Soviet player offensive will more or less by default be more sane than the historical one.

If the answer is that the Soviets won't make the same mistakes vs. history in the Winter Offensive, AND won't make the same mistakes in the Summer of 1941 for that matter, maybe the answer is simply that the Germans cannot reasonably expect to make Historical progress.

If that's the case, then the adjustment needs to be to Victory Conditions, because the only realistic prospect is for the German player to play "not to lose"

Linebacker looks like the way to go for the Wehrmacht in 1943

One of the problems the Germans will face in later war years is that their morale is high. Why is that a problem? Because it makes units retreat instead of rout, so unlike the Soviets, who often take casualties once during a turn and then rout out of your reach, the Soviets can maul the same Axis unit over and over.

If the answer is that the Soviets won't make the same mistakes vs. history in the Winter Offensive, AND won't make the same mistakes in the Summer of 1941 for that matter, maybe the answer is simply that the Germans cannot reasonably expect to make Historical progress.

You probably won't make many of the Axis mistakes either, it's not a uniquely Soviet advantage.

If that's the case, then the adjustment needs to be to Victory Conditions, because the only realistic prospect is for the German player to play "not to lose"

I don't see how that is not as it should be. The Axis can still play to get a minor victory or draw. I'd say a draw counts as a victory too, in this case.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Linebacker looks like the way to go for the Wehrmacht in 1943

One of the problems the Germans will face in later war years is that their morale is high. Why is that a problem? Because it makes units retreat instead of rout, so unlike the Soviets, who often take casualties once during a turn and then rout of your reach, the Soviets can maul the same Axis unit over and over.

That's quite a perverse downside to élan and training.

I think that the problem facing those who try to "hedgehog" or strongpoint their defenses is that the game mechanics don't really allow this to be a viable option, either. The vast number of smaller Soviet units can very easily ooze past hedgehogs, while being virtually impervious to counter-attacks. Then, after the hedgehogs are surrounded, and out of supply, they are just as easily picked off as the troops in the open. This allows the Soviet player to simply avoid the losses that they will take by the usual tactic of broad front offensives, and pick off the hedgehogs, one by one.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
I think that the problem facing those who try to "hedgehog" or strongpoint their defenses is that the game mechanics don't really allow this to be a viable option, either. The vast number of smaller Soviet units can very easily ooze past hedgehogs, while being virtually impervious to counter-attacks. Then, after the hedgehogs are surrounded, and out of supply, they are just as easily picked off as the troops in the open. This allows the Soviet player to simply avoid the losses that they will take by the usual tactic of broad front offensives, and pick off the hedgehogs, one by one.

To get through a checkerboard with two "lines" (that's three hexes deep) in the way you comment, requires three turns and a bunch of units (since Soviet movement allowances usually mean that when a Soviet unit enters an enemy ZOC, it will stay there until the end of turn). The MP costs to keep supplied the "spearhead" of such an "oozing" penetration would be pretty high, meaning little supply arriving to those units and a greater attrition for the Soviet motor pool. Which is the second most important limiting factor for Soviet offensives in 1941: in two turns 40k vehicles were put away for repairs. It's pretty simple to see that this will lead to a ever decreasing logistic ability for the RKKA.

Cavalry and Tank Brigades are faster, but there are fewer of those. And Cav and TkBdes aren't really "impervious" to energic German counterstrokes.