Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

More seriously, when the Red Army leaps ahead of the logistics base, at some point, "refit" is not effective and there is insufficient fuel, and Trucks take a beating. I agree with Flav insofar as this logistics "show stopper" comes too late. I'm not sure about quick fixes other than reducing the supply range for the Soviet Union ( burning more trucks), reducing lend lease, or having STAVKA demand many more vehicles. The latter might simulate Stalin's tendency in 1944 + to take military transport away for political ethnic relocations. Perhaps STAVKA could have TOE 'upgrades' in vehicle requirements (large ones) ? This would also make it more costly to rail the Strategic HQ around like an Ice Cream van.

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
In every Sov game I have played I ran into a logistics issue and had to pause. I now don't move more than 5 hexes or so ahead of the railheads, save when I want to send by Tank Corps to exploit, get encircled and surrender .

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

More seriously, when the Red Army leaps ahead of the logistics base, at some point, "refit" is not effective and there is insufficient fuel, and Trucks take a beating. I agree with Flav insofar as this logistics "show stopper" comes too late. I'm not sure about quick fixes other than reducing the supply range for the Soviet Union ( burning more trucks), reducing lend lease, or having STAVKA demand many more vehicles. The latter might simulate Stalin's tendency in 1944 + to take military transport away for political ethnic relocations. Perhaps STAVKA could have TOE 'upgrades' in vehicle requirements (large ones) ? This would also make it more costly to rail the Strategic HQ around like an Ice Cream van.

Bah. Front line refits hardly ever work anyways, regardless. And cavalry and infantry can keep advancing at or near their maximum possible movement rates so long as they aren't in the red supply wise. As long as the rifle and cav corps can do this, it's almost irrelevant how badly hamstrung your mech units are (and they hardly ever reach 50 mps even with full supply.) Nor are the artillery divisions particularly slowed down by distance from a railhead, either. The real backbone of the Red Army just keeps going and going and cavalry can handle exploitation duties even as the newfangled mech stuff is struggling to hit 20 mps. I sometimes wonder if the Soviet could just take a pass entirely on tank and mech corps and build nothing but cavalry corps.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Thats the key to TDV's blizzard exploition. Its unstoppable.

Supplys are irrelevent.

1. Why are cav units so strong?
2by3 answer: Because they have trucks, AA,AT and art.

2. Why does cav need so few supplies or basicly none?
2by3 answer; Because they just have rifles and horses.

There basicly is zero logistics with this game. Once the line is broken both sides can exploit about 50 hexes from railheads.
Poeple playing the GHC side figured this out early on. The SHC side is just now figuring it out. Your right Flaviusx the SHC side only needs a handful of tank/mech units and thats just to zoc hold units. With there being zero supply limits on infantry basicly late war because of the fixed morale timeline. The Russian side can stop building RR at the border.

I pointed these old stale facts out over a yr ago and was ignored.

wite logistics system can easly be fixed under the current sysyem IF someone would take the time and look at the system as a hole.

Anyways its nice to see this has been figured out by someone other then myself. I am guessing MT and a few others also have known this for over a yr, thats why we game the supply system so easly.

Nerfing HQ and muling has done zero to stop the GHC advance, because there is still no logistic system is plase to stop the GHC or SHC.

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I get it.  Post another turn so we don't have to keep talking about boring subjects like Soviet cavalry supply.  [;)] 

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

More seriously, when the Red Army leaps ahead of the logistics base, at some point, "refit" is not effective and there is insufficient fuel, and Trucks take a beating. I agree with Flav insofar as this logistics "show stopper" comes too late. I'm not sure about quick fixes other than reducing the supply range for the Soviet Union ( burning more trucks), reducing lend lease, or having STAVKA demand many more vehicles. The latter might simulate Stalin's tendency in 1944 + to take military transport away for political ethnic relocations. Perhaps STAVKA could have TOE 'upgrades' in vehicle requirements (large ones) ? This would also make it more costly to rail the Strategic HQ around like an Ice Cream van.

Bah. Front line refits hardly ever work anyways, regardless. And cavalry and infantry can keep advancing at or near their maximum possible movement rates so long as they aren't in the red supply wise. As long as the rifle and cav corps can do this, it's almost irrelevant how badly hamstrung your mech units are (and they hardly ever reach 50 mps even with full supply.) Nor are the artillery divisions particularly slowed down by distance from a railhead, either. The real backbone of the Red Army just keeps going and going and cavalry can handle exploitation duties even as the newfangled mech stuff is struggling to hit 20 mps. I sometimes wonder if the Soviet could just take a pass entirely on tank and mech corps and build nothing but cavalry corps.

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

sorry for the delay. my honored opponent surrended in the blizzard after my cavalery units pocketed most of his AGS around stalino.

btw: you did a good job against me hooper. i realy can not handle this nasty foreward defending guys.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But as I say that, I am left to wonder whether a random-weather campaign makes it impossible for Germany to achieve the necessary results that preserve a competitive position into 1942 and 1943.

In my opinion, random whether forces German motorized elements to tether themselves to a much more realistic (in terms of 1941 history) flank security position when penetrating.

I am left to wonder whether a random-weather campaign makes it impossible for Germany to achieve the necessary results that preserve a competitive position into 1942 and 1943.

ORIGINAL: Seminole

In my opinion, random whether forces German motorized elements to tether themselves to a much more realistic (in terms of 1941 history) flank security position when penetrating.

You mean without ahistorical perfect knowledge of future weather the Germans can't do gamey things? Perish the thought! [;)]

I am left to wonder whether a random-weather campaign makes it impossible for Germany to achieve the necessary results that preserve a competitive position into 1942 and 1943.

I'm about to start a new AAR, once we get a few more turns in.
My German opponent eschewed rapid reduction of early pockets, and formed them loosely enough that I repeatedly broke them by mere maneuver. Consequently on turn 2 I managed to isolate virtually all of Hoth and Guderian's panzer/motorized forces. He easily linked back up on turn 3, but rain hit on turn 4 and again 2nd and 3rd Panzer Armee are twiddling their thumbs waiting for fuel. I think failure to reduce the pockets has also impeded his rail construction, compounding the problem. It will be interesting to see if he can bounce back or if the game has effectively been decided in less than a month.
The shape of the central Soviet weather zone also essentially forced him to divert 1st Panzer Armee toward Odessa, but problems with the Lvov pocket have also retarded his rail development significantly in this sector.

I still think mud, at least insofar as it affects supply movement costs, should be cumulative in the manner that ice levels are now.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But it's also not simply the Soviet offensive that causes Germany the biggest problems - it's simply the "blizzard in Dec/Jan/Feb" condition which hurts so much, and that is a very big help for Germany when it does occur.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Glvaca,

My take on this is that you ran a very optimized game as German commander. What I mean by 'optimized' is that you had a very deliberate plan for your logistics path en route to your main 1941 objective, which was Moscow.

As a German-o-phile myself, I saw you doing the two or three things that are essential in the 1941 campaign. You knew where you wanted your main effort rail line to go, and you ensured your combats supported that at all necessary times. You knew how to take big risks effectively in how you extended the motorized, exploitation moves. In point of fact, I do not think I have ever seen a player do better in managing the tip of the spear. I was very surprised at how often you had motorized elements cut off (something I'm deeply afraid of doing), and how you were able to maximize Soviet thrusts to your own advantage (some of that at some point becomes a criticism of your opponent, to be sure). You also managed your refit of damaged motorized elements extremely effectively, and I think this is an under-appreciated point in the discussion of how effective your penetration moves were. Super. Well. Done.

As far as Soviet criticisms, I think there have been sufficient number of those given. I do want to emphasize that in my view, the Soviet 1941 defense must focus on army size and industry evacuation, not territorial positions. You manage territory, you defend your industry and your army.

I do feel that this AAR demonstrates the importance of knowing the weather on the 1941 campaign. There is a huge difference in the necessary German mindset when playing with random weather. Any number of penetrations, whether at Kiev or at Velikye Luki, or at Stalino area - could have been turned into serious fights for survival if mud had hit in between turns in those moments.

In my opinion, random whether forces German motorized elements to tether themselves to a much more realistic (in terms of 1941 history) flank security position when penetrating. The change may mean 5 or 10 hexes of ground in a pincer. In other words, what you can do in 1 turn will require 2, and what you can do in 2 turns will require 3. This plays to the Soviet capabilities well, since they can move faster east than the German in such an environment.

But as I say that, I am left to wonder whether a random-weather campaign makes it impossible for Germany to achieve the necessary results that preserve a competitive position into 1942 and 1943.

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Tarhunnas is on holiday and I guess he's to busy drinking cocktails to think about the war [:)]