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Vestfjord is in northern Norway. Anything north of Trondheim can't be called west, as you will see if you look at a globe.
Northwest in Norway is by definition aprox the area from the small town Måløy and a bit past the larger small town of Kristiansund.
And the Northeast of Norway is from North Cape to the russian border.

ORIGINAL: morgil

Vestfjord is in northern Norway. Anything north of Trondheim can't be called west, as you will see if you look at a globe.
Northwest in Norway is by definition aprox the area from the small town Måløy and a bit past the larger small town of Kristiansund.
And the Northeast of Norway is from North Cape to the russian border.

Warspite1

Well I guess you know more about your country than I do, although curiously, there are a number of websites that refer to northwest Norway around that area.

It seems strange too that one can't refer to somewhere being in the northwest - even though its in a (north)west point of the country - seemingly because its further east than another (more southerly) part of the country - strange?

By that reckoning, and if you look at a globe, we will need to re-name northwest England and northeast England for example. Anyway, my head hurts now.

Ah, the English language. If a wind is a "northerly" it blows from north to south but if a wind blows northerly you go north. I believe in this case northwest = north side of country + west side of that area; western side of north Norway is more accurate but verbose.

Should we ask the guy that got the prize for designing the coastline?

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Should we ask the guy that got the prize for designing the coastline?

Warspite1

You mean Slartibartfast? [;)] Yes he should know the the Norwgian coast - or at least the fjords - like the back of his hand. Do you know how to contact him?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Should we ask the guy that got the prize for designing the coastline?

Warspite1

You mean Slartibartfast? [;)] Yes he should know the the Norwgian coast - or at least the fjords - like the back of his hand. Do you know how to contact him?

Suggestion: Doesn't everyone have a gmail account nowadays?

I know that alot of German battleship turrets were placed in coastal fortress in Denmark and Norway

maybe that is something that can be mentioned in the write up for those battleships.   


my information tells me that the fortress in Hanstholm used 4 38 cm battleship guns.

with the productions numbers 70, 71, 74 and 75.


and 3 of the 38 cm guns were placed in Movik battery near Kristiansand in Norway.. the fourth gun way lost, when it´s ship was sunk on the way to norway ..

does anybody know if those 8 guns came from battle ships or were just reserve guns ???

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

I know that alot of German battleship turrets were placed in coastal fortress in Denmark and Norway

maybe that is something that can be mentioned in the write up for those battleships.   

Warspite1

Care to elaborate?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

I know that alot of German battleship turrets were placed in coastal fortress in Denmark and Norway

maybe that is something that can be mentioned in the write up for those battleships.   

Warspite1

Care to elaborate?

this summer I was personally in hanstholm and see the museum there ... doing the war Germany transporter 4 38 cm guns there ... and placed them in single turret to cover the waters between Denmark and Norway. in Norway there were a similar fortress. and together they could almost cover the entire distance ...I read somewhere that the 4 guns in Hanstholm were the ones that should have been on Gneisenau.

but didn´t she receive her bigger guns ????

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

I know that alot of German battleship turrets were placed in coastal fortress in Denmark and Norway

maybe that is something that can be mentioned in the write up for those battleships.   

Warspite1

Care to elaborate?

this summer I was personally in hanstholm and see the museum there ... doing the war Germany transporter 4 38 cm guns there ... and placed them in single turret to cover the waters between Denmark and Norway. in Norway there were a similar fortress. and together they could almost cover the entire distance ...I read somewhere that the 4 guns in Hanstholm were the ones that should have been on Gneisenau.

but didn´t she receive her bigger guns ????

Warspite1

I understand that Gneisenau's triple 11-inch gun turrets were sent to Holland/Norway. As you say, one was lost/damaged but two were fitted; one in Bergen and one in Trondheim. Sources differ as to whether the one in Trondheim or Bergen still exists intact.

No, Gneisenau never recieved her upgrade to 15-inch guns - Hitler ordered work to stop after the Barents Sea debacle. Although work started up again, little progress was made and work ceased for good after her sister was sunk at the Battle of North Cape at the end of the following year.

I have read that the guns at Hantholm were 15-inch guns but do not know how many or if they were intended for Gneisenau.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I understand that Gneisenau's triple 11-inch gun turrets were sent to Holland/Norway. As you say, one was lost/damaged but two were fitted; one in Bergen and one in Trondheim. Sources differ as to whether the one in Trondheim or Bergen still exists intact.

No, Gneisenau never recieved her upgrade to 15-inch guns - Hitler ordered work to stop after the Barents Sea debacle. Although work started up again, little progress was made and work ceased for good after her sister was sunk at the Battle of North Cape at the end of the following year.

I have read that the guns at Hantholm were 15-inch guns but do not know how many or if they were intended for Gneisenau.

Hanstholm bunker, Denmark


After the war: surviving relics

Here is the hansholm museum link:

Hanstholm

I Oksbøl to the south, they build another battery, mentioned in the Hanstholm site:

Oksbøl

And then there is this site for sites:

ww2 Remnants

Please see below the second example of the U-boat counters; this time focusing on the Type VIIA and U-30 in particular.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Kriegsmarine during World War II. World In
Flames submarine counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual boat. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various classes of German
submarine class, and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the First World War the submarines of the Kaiser's navy came close to
starving the United Kingdom into surrender. Following Germany's defeat, their
entire submarine fleet was handed over to the Allies and the German navy was
forbidden to use submarines in future.
.P Secretly however, the Germans continued to work on new designs - and indeed in
the late twenties, German designed submarines were sold to Turkey and Finland via
a "Dutch" company operating in Holland.
.P Development of designs and ideas continued until, in March 1935, Adolf Hitler
formally repudiated the Treaty of Versailles. Germany then openly set about
re-arming their armed forces, including the Kriegsmarine.
.P Shortly after this announcement, the German and British Governments signed the
Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Under the terms of this treaty, the German navy was
allowed to build a fleet no greater than 35% of the Royal Navy's total tonnage.
Subject to this limitation, the Kriegsmarine's submarine service was allowed to
equal that of the Royal Navy.
.P Thus at the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, the Kriegsmarine's
submarines (in German Unterseeboot or simply U-boat) numbered a mere fifty-seven
boats - the same as the Royal Navy. Of these, only twenty-six were suitable for
Atlantic operations. However, the Germans embarked upon a huge expansion program
and during the war, well over 1,000 boats were constructed.
.P There were some spectacular early successes; the sinking of the battleship
Royal Oak and the aircraft carrier Courageous ranking high amongst them. Later,
when U-boats were deployed in the Mediterranean, further success was achieved
against the Royal Navy; the carrier Ark Royal and the battleship Barham were high
profile victims to the power of the U-boat.
.P But it was the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic upon which the U-boat arm
would be ultimately judged, and early in the war, successful attacks on Allied
merchant shipping proved a severe problem for the British. With the conquest of
Norway, and in particular, France by June 1940, the U-boats were able to operate
from ports that gave much easier access to the Atlantic and extended the time the
U-boats could be operational against enemy shipping.
.P Winston Churchill said that the Battle of the Atlantic - and in particular the
U-boat menace - was the only thing that scared him during World War II; with the
serious merchant ship losses incurred from mid 1940 until early 1941 (known by
the U-boat crews as the first "Happy Time") it is easy to see why. There was to
be a second, albeit brief, "Happy Time" after the United States entered the war
in December 1941, but by then, the tide had already begun to turn.
.P Ultimately the Allies were able to beat the U-boats for a number of reasons:
there was the convoy system and the sheer number of escorts that the Allies were
able to field; the Allies were able to maintain the pace of technological
advances to improve their ability to conduct anti-submarine warfare; conventional
escort ships, such as destroyers and corvettes, were later supplemented by escort
aircraft carriers that could provide a measure of air protection to a convoy; and
last but not least, aircraft - which were the U-boats greatest enemy - were able
to fly from the United Kingdom, Iceland and later the United States meaning that
the entire convoy route could be covered by aircraft.
.P By late 1942, although the U-boats were still sinking Allied shipping, the
cost to the Kriegsmarine in terms of men and boats, was becoming critical. With
Germany not geared up to fight a long war, the resources available to counter the
Allies simply were not available and the Kriegsmarine's response to the ever
growing Allied threat proved simply too little, too late.
.P The U-boat service suffered more losses per head than any branch of any
service of any country in World War II. Of the 40,000 men that served in U-boats
during the conflict, no less than 28,000 were killed and a further 8,000 were
taken prisoner.
.P This write-up looks at the Type VIIA U-boats, and in particular the U-30.
.B
.B Name: U-30
.B Engine(s) output: 1160 bhp (Surfaced) 375 bhp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 16 knots (Surfaced), 8 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 5 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 1 x 3.5-inch (88mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 733 tons
.B Diving Depth: 656 ft
.P The Type VII U-boat became the backbone of the U-boat fleet in World War
II. A total of 709 boats were built, spread over seven variants. These boats were
real all rounders; they were not necessarily the biggest, fastest or the most
powerfully armed boats, but the package proved a formidable weapon. They were
capable of being built relatively quickly, cheaply and in large numbers. In the
important areas: range, speed, manoeuvrability and armament, they were more than
adequate for the key role they were asked to play; that of merchant killer.
.P The Type VIIA was the first of the seven variants ultimately produced. Ten
boats were built between 1935 and 1937, and they were effectively a test bed for
the improved versions to come.
.P The VIIAs were fitted with five torpedo tubes, four in the bow and one aft.
Eleven torpedoes could be carried. This variant could be easily distinguished
from subsequent versions as the stern tube was visible, instead of being mounted
within the hull. A drawback of this design was that the stern tube could not be
re-loaded whilst at sea.
.P Two guns were carried; an 88mm gun mounted forward and a 20mm Flak gun aft.
These boats could also carry up to thirty-three mines.
.P Range was 4,300 nautical miles on the surface, and 90 miles submerged.
.P Like all Type VIIs, they were constructed using a single-hull design.
.P U-30 was ordered in 1935, launched in August 1936 and commissioned in October
of that year. Her operational career during World War II lasted almost exactly
one year, and it was to be an eventful one.
.P On the 22nd August 1939 U-30, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Lemp, left the port
of Wilhelmshaven to take up station in the North Atlantic. She was one of
fourteen U-boats sent there and from where they were ordered to await further
orders.
.P Eleven days later, on the 3rd September, the British declared war on Germany
following the latter's invasion of Poland and subsequent refusal to withdraw her
troops. As a result, the fourteen U-boats were given orders to wage war on enemy
shipping. These orders were subject to the Prize Regulations; an international
agreement that submarines could only attack merchant shipping of an enemy nation,
and even then, only after the crew had previously been removed from the ship.
.P On that same day the British passenger ship, SS Athenia, was about 220 miles
from the Irish coast and heading west, bound for Canada. She had 1,417 passengers
and crew aboard, including many Americans. Athenia's route brought her into
contact with U-30 and at 1943hrs, a torpedo from Lemp's U-boat smashed into the
unsuspecting British ship. Athenia sank soon after and 118 people lost their
lives, of which 16 were children.
.P The official German response was that there was no U-boat in the area and that
the British vessel either hit a mine or was torpedoed by her own side. Privately,
upon his return to Germany, Lemp claimed that he believed the ship was an armed
merchant cruiser and no action was taken against him. Lemp's actions however -
seemingly the employment of unrestricted submarine warfare - had handed the
British a huge propaganda coup and forced the head of the U-boat arm, Käpitan zur
See Dönitz, to immediately re-issue orders to his commanders; Prize Regulations
were to be strictly observed in future.
.P After this incident Lemp ensured that the rules of the Prize Regulations were
complied with, and U-30 sank two more British merchant vessels, the first on the
11th and the second on the 14th September. During the sinking of the latter, U-30
came under attack from two aircraft flown from the aircraft carrier HMS Ark
Royal. The aircraft, Blackburn Skuas, attacked too close to the surface and each
were downed by the blast from their own bombs. Lemp ordered the two surviving
pilots to be picked up and while doing so, came under attack from a third
aircraft. Despite the third Skua inflicting damage on his U-boat, Lemp was able
to submerge to safety and quickly ordered course for home. Lemp was awarded the
Iron Cross, 2nd Class at this time.
.P It was only in December that U-30 was once more ready to return to sea. On the
23rd December she began an operation in the North Sea. Five days later she sank
an anti-submarine trawler and then followed this with a much bigger prize;
damaging the battleship HMS Barham with a single torpedo. During this operation,
U-30 laid a minefield and it is believed that three merchant vessels were sunk or
damaged by the mines she laid. Upon his return to Germany Lemp was awared the
Iron Cross, 1st class.
.P At the start of April, U-30, along with almost the entire U-boat fleet, was
stationed in the North Sea as part of Weserübung, the operation to invade Denmark
and Norway. She was stationed initially off Trondheim but she was to meet with no
success at all and returned to Germany at the beginning of May.
.P At the start of the following month U-30 was sent back to sea and was ordered
to head for the Bay of Biscay. This patrol proved to be far more successful for
Lemp and his men. No less than five ships were sunk on this patrol before she
headed for her new home, Lorient, on the west coast of France.
.P U-30 sailed from Lorient on the 13th July and achieved another kill before she
had to return to port suffering from engine trouble. Her machinery was proving
increasingly troublesome and U-30 was coming to the end of her operational
career. Her next patrol - her eighth - was to be her last. She left France on the
5th August and headed for the North Atlantic and the long journey home around the
British Isles. Two more merchant ships were claimed during this final patrol.
.P Lemp returned to Germany a hero, and was awarded the Knights Cross, but for
U-30, the homecoming was the end of her combat career. She was sent to the Baltic
and from September 1940 onwards she was to be used in the training boat role.
.P U-30 was decommissioned in January 1945 and was scuttled on the 4th May 1945.
Her wreck was raised after the war and broken up in 1948.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Kriegsmarine during World War II. World In
Flames submarine counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual boat. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various classes of German
submarine class, and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the First World War the submarines of the Kaiser's navy came close to
starving the United Kingdom into surrender. Following Germany's defeat, their
entire submarine fleet was handed over to the Allies and the German navy was
forbidden to use submarines in future.
.P Secretly however, the Germans continued to work on new designs - and indeed in
the late twenties, German designed submarines were sold to Turkey and Finland via
a "Dutch" company operating in Holland.
.P Development of designs and ideas continued until, in March 1935, Adolf Hitler
formally repudiated the Treaty of Versailles. Germany then openly set about
re-arming their armed forces, including the Kriegsmarine.
.P Shortly after this announcement, the German and British Governments signed the
Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Under the terms of this treaty, the German navy was
allowed to build a fleet no greater than 35% of the Royal Navy's total tonnage.
Subject to this limitation, the Kriegsmarine's submarine service was allowed to
equal that of the Royal Navy.
.P Thus at the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, the Kriegsmarine's
submarines (in German Unterseeboot or simply U-boat) numbered a mere fifty-seven
boats - the same as the Royal Navy. Of these, only twenty-six were suitable for
Atlantic operations. However, the Germans embarked upon a huge expansion program
and during the war, well over 1,000 boats were constructed.
.P There were some spectacular early successes; the sinking of the battleship
Royal Oak and the aircraft carrier Courageous ranking high amongst them. Later,
when U-boats were deployed in the Mediterranean, further success was achieved
against the Royal Navy; the carrier Ark Royal and the battleship Barham were high
profile victims to the power of the U-boat.
.P But it was the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic upon which the U-boat arm
would be ultimately judged, and early in the war, successful attacks on Allied
merchant shipping proved a severe problem for the British. With the conquest of
Norway, and in particular, France by June 1940, the U-boats were able to operate
from ports that gave much easier access to the Atlantic and extended the time the
U-boats could be operational against enemy shipping.
.P Winston Churchill said that the Battle of the Atlantic - and in particular the
U-boat menace - was the only thing that scared him during World War II; with the
serious merchant ship losses incurred from mid 1940 until early 1941 (known by
the U-boat crews as the first "Happy Time") it is easy to see why. There was to
be a second, albeit brief, "Happy Time" after the United States entered the war
in December 1941, but by then, the tide had already begun to turn.
.P Ultimately the Allies were able to beat the U-boats for a number of reasons:
there was the convoy system and the sheer number of escorts that the Allies were
able to field; the Allies were able to maintain the pace of technological
advances to improve their ability to conduct anti-submarine warfare; conventional
escort ships, such as destroyers and corvettes, were later supplemented by escort
aircraft carriers that could provide a measure of air protection to a convoy; and
last but not least, aircraft - which were the U-boats greatest enemy - were able
to fly from the United Kingdom, Iceland and later the United States meaning that
the entire convoy route could be covered by aircraft.
.P By late 1942, although the U-boats were still sinking Allied shipping, the
cost to the Kriegsmarine in terms of men and boats, was becoming critical. With
Germany not geared up to fight a long war, the resources available to counter the
Allies simply were not available and the Kriegsmarine's response to the ever
growing Allied threat proved simply too little, too late.
.P The U-boat service suffered more losses per head than any branch of any
service of any country in World War II. Of the 40,000 men that served in U-boats
during the conflict, no less than 28,000 were killed and a further 8,000 were
taken prisoner.
.P This write-up looks at the Type VIIA U-boats, and in particular the U-30.
.B
.B Name: U-30
.B Engine(s) output: 1160bhp (Surfaced) 375bhp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 16 knots (Surfaced), 8 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 5 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 1 x 3.5-inch (88mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 733 tons
.B Diving Depth: 656 ft
.P The Type VII U-boat became the backbone of the U-boat fleet in World War
II. A total of 709 boats were built, spread over seven variants. These boats were
real all rounders; they were not necessarily the biggest, fastest or the most
powerfully armed boats, but the package proved a formidable weapon. They were
capable of being built relatively quickly, cheaply and in large numbers. In the
important areas: range, speed, manoeuvrability and armament, they were more than
adequate for the key role they were asked to play; that of merchant killer.
.P The Type VIIA was the first of the seven variants ultimately produced. Ten
boats were built between 1935 and 1937, and they were effectively a test bed for
the improved versions to come.
.P The VIIAs were fitted with five torpedo tubes, four in the bow and one aft.
Eleven torpedoes could be carried. This variant could be easily distinguished
from subsequent versions, as the stern tube was visible, instead of being mounted
within the hull. A drawback of this design was that the stern tube could not be
re-loaded whilst at sea.
.P Two guns were carried; an 88mm gun mounted forward and a 20mm Flak gun aft.
These boats could also carry up to thirty-three mines.
.P Range was 4,300 nautical miles on the surface, and 90 miles submerged.
.P Like all Type VIIs, they were constructed using a single-hull design.
.P U-30 was ordered in 1935, launched in August 1936 and commissioned in October
of that year. Her operational career during World War II lasted almost exactly
one year, and it was to be an eventful one.
.P On the 22nd August 1939 U-30, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Lemp, left the port
of Wilhelmshaven to take up station in the North Atlantic. She was one of
fourteen U-boats sent there and from where they were ordered to await further
orders.
.P Eleven days later, on the 3rd September, the British declared war on Germany
following the latter's invasion of Poland and subsequent refusal to withdraw her
troops. As a result, the fourteen U-boats were given orders to wage war on enemy
shipping. These orders were subject to the Prize Regulations; an international
agreement that submarines could only attack merchant shipping of an enemy nation,
and even then, only after the crew had previously been removed from the ship.
.P On that same day the British passenger ship, SS Athenia, was about 220 miles
from the Irish coast and heading west, bound for Canada. She had 1,417 passengers
and crew aboard, including many Americans. Athenia's route brought her into
contact with U-30 and at 1943hrs, a torpedo from Lemp's U-boat smashed into the
unsuspecting British ship. Athenia sank soon after and 118 people lost their
lives, of which 16 were children.
.P The official German response was that there was no U-boat in the area and that
the British vessel either hit a mine or was torpedoed by her own side. Privately,
upon his return to Germany, Lemp claimed that he believed the ship was an armed
merchant cruiser and no action was taken against him. Lemp's actions however -
seemingly the employment of unrestricted submarine warfare - had handed the
British a huge propaganda coup and forced the head of the U-boat arm, Käpitan zur
See Dönitz, to immediately re-issue orders to his commanders; Prize Regulations
were to be strictly observed in future.
.P After this incident Lemp ensured that the rules of the Prize Regulations were
complied with, and U-30 sank two more British merchant vessels, the first on the
11th and the second on the 14th September. During the sinking of the latter, U-30
came under attack from two aircraft flown from the aircraft carrier HMS Ark
Royal. The aircraft, Blackburn Skuas, attacked too close to the surface and each
were downed by the blast from their own bombs. Lemp ordered the two surviving
pilots to be picked up and while doing so, came under attack from a third
aircraft. Despite the third Skua inflicting damage on his U-boat, Lemp was able
to submerge to safety and quickly ordered course for home. Lemp was awarded the
Iron Cross, 2nd Class at this time.
.P It was only in December that U-30 was once more ready to return to sea. On the
23rd December she began an operation in the North Sea. Five days later she sank
an anti-submarine trawler and then followed this with a much bigger prize;
damaging the battleship HMS Barham with a single torpedo. During this operation,
U-30 laid a minefield and it is believed that three merchant vessels were sunk or
damaged by the mines she laid. Upon his return to Germany Lemp was awarded the
Iron Cross, 1st class.
.P At the start of April, U-30, along with almost the entire U-boat fleet, was
stationed in the North Sea as part of Weserübung, the operation to invade Denmark
and Norway. She was stationed initially off Trondheim but she was to meet with no
success at all and returned to Germany at the beginning of May.
.P At the start of the following month U-30 was sent back to sea and was ordered
to head for the Bay of Biscay. This patrol proved to be far more successful for
Lemp and his men. No less than five ships were sunk on this patrol before she
headed for her new home, Lorient, on the west coast of France.
.P U-30 sailed from Lorient on the 13th July and achieved another kill before she
had to return to port suffering from engine trouble. Her machinery was proving
increasingly troublesome and U-30 was coming to the end of her operational
career. Her next patrol - her eighth - was to be her last. She left France on the
5th August and headed for the North Atlantic and the long journey home around the
British Isles. Two more merchant ships were claimed during this final patrol.
.P Lemp returned to Germany a hero, and was awarded the Knights Cross, but for
U-30, the homecoming was the end of her combat career. She was sent to the Baltic
and from September 1940 onwards she was to be used in the training boat role.
.P U-30 was decommissioned in January 1945 and was scuttled on the 4th May 1945.
Her wreck was raised after the war and broken up in 1948.

So much for getting the French fleet done......

Having started on the U-boats, I felt guilty that the Royal Navy had not been receiving the attention it deserves. I have therefore set about finalising the intro for the British subs and finishing the stories for the nine submariner VC's. The first of these is set out below:


.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Royal Navy (RN) during World War II. These
World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual vessel. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various RN submarine
classes and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the inter-war years the British tried to get the submarine banned as a
weapon of war. However, without the unanimous agreement of the other major naval
powers, this policy was doomed to failure. Instead therefore, the British
pursued a similar path to that adopted for limiting the size of the surface navy,
i.e. limiting the number of submarines allowed through treaty.
.P The Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1936 limited the number of submarines that
Germany could build to 100% of the British total, and at the outbreak of World
War II the RN's submarine service, like that of the Kriegsmarine, numbered fifty-
seven boats.
.P Largely as a consequence of the lack of money available for defence spending
during the inter-war years, the British concentrated on building submarines that
used tried and trusted technology. This policy meant that, generally speaking,
RN submarines were more reliable than their foreign contemporaries at the start
of hostilities; German and US submarines suffered initially from unreliable
torpedoes, and many of the Italian and Japanese submarine designs proved
cumbersome to operate - a particular problem when diving.
.P While German submarines were designed to wage war principally against the
merchant shipping that kept the United Kingdom fed and provisioned, their British
equivalents were designed primarily to attack enemy warships. As a consequence,
the British boats featured a larger number of torpedo tubes than their rivals in
order to allow the biggest salvo possible.
.P In actual fact, RN submarines were deployed in all theatres during World War
II, and enjoyed success against enemy warships and merchant vessels alike. RN
submarines were also used extensively on "special forces" operations. More than
seventy boats were lost during the war along with approximately 2,000 officers
and men.
.P This write-up looks at the T-Class submarines, and specifically two boats from
the second of the three T-Class groups.
.B
.B Name: HMS Thrasher and HMS Turbulent
.B Engine(s) output: 2,500 hp (Surfaced) 1,450 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 15.25 knots (Surfaced) 8.75 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 11 x 21-inch torpedo tubes, 1 x 4-inch (102mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 1,571 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P The T-Class submarine was the RN's replacement for the O, P and R-class
boats that, by the mid-thirties, could no longer be considered front line
vessels. The first group, consisting of fifteen vessels, was ordered between 1935
and 1938; the second group of seven boats was ordered in 1939; while the thirty-
one boats of the third group were ordered after the outbreak of the Second World
War, between 1940 and 1942. A total of fifty-three boats would ultimately be
built - the largest number of boats in any single RN class of submarine.
.P The design changes between the three groups were not dramatic, rather the
subsequent classes were logical developments of what had gone before. The initial
group evidenced some teething problems, and one boat - HMS Thetis - was lost in
a pre-war accident. Within each group there were also detail changes from boat to
boat.
.P With enemy warships as the prime target for British submarines, the first
group of the T-class were given an incredible ten, forward mounted, torpedo tubes
in order to increase the probability of securing a hit. These were arranged: six
forward (internal), two forward (external) and two amidships (external). A total
of sixteen torpedoes could be carried. The second and third group boats had an
additional stern mounted torpedo tube and the two amidships tubes were altered to
stern facing. Seventeen torpedoes could be carried and there was also room for up
to twelve mines.
.P The boats were all fitted with a 4-inch forward mounted gun and three machine-
guns were also carried.
.P The boats of the T-class were to provide an excellent addition to the RN's
submarine service during the war, and indeed, continued to make a valuable
contribution well beyond 1945; the last of the T-class was not taken out of
service until 1969.
.P HMS Thrasher
.P HMS Thrasher was commissioned in May 1941. After work-up she was sent to the
Mediterranean the following month. She was commanded at that time by Lt-Cdr
Cowell, and Thrasher's first operation was to deliver supplies to the island of
Malta before continuing her journey east. Having arrived in Alexandria, Egypt, at
the beginning of July, she joined the 1st Submarine Flotilla and spent the
remainder of 1941 in the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean Seas. Operational
success was limited during that time, although on her 2nd patrol, she did manage
to evacuate 78 soldiers that had been trapped on Crete following the withdrawal
of Commonwealth troops from that island earlier that year.
.P 1942 began well for Thrasher, which had been commanded by Lt. MacKenzie since
the previous October. Then, on the 16th February, came an incident that would
have seen the destruction of the boat had it not been for the outstanding bravery
of two members of Thresher's crew.
.P Thresher had sunk an Italian merchant ship and was immediately subjected to
attack by both Italian aircraft and the escort vessels. During the attack, two
unexploded bombs became lodged between the casing and the hull of the submarine.
Having survived the attentions of the enemy, and waiting until after dark,
Thresher re-surfaced and Lt. Peter Roberts and P.O Thomas Gould volunteered to
remove the bombs, the second of which was extremely difficult to get to. They had
to lie flat due to the lack of room in the casing, and they were operating in
total darkness as they literally dragged the bomb to a position from where it
could be pushed clear of the submarine. To add to the unbearable tension of
knowing that the bomb may explode at any second, the two sailors were also
acutely aware that if an enemy patrol found them, Thrasher would have to dive
below the surface; an action that would drown the two men.
.P Roberts and Gould, successfully removed the bombs and they were both awarded
the Victoria Cross - the highest award for bravery in the face of the enemy
available in the British and Commonwealth armed forces.
.P Thrasher was able to continue her patrol, and a move into the Central
Mediterranean in April saw her record four merchant vessel sinkings in less than
two months.
.P In June, Thrasher was ordered to provide part of the cover for the Vigorous
convoy operation to Malta, and for which she was stationed off Taranto in order
to try and intercept the Italian Fleet (see HMS Hermione). The convoy was a
failure and the submarine operation met with no success.
.P At the end of that month Thrasher, attacked a convoy along with her sister
Turbulent. They each sunk a merchant ship and Thrasher also sunk an Italian
escort vessel. At the end of the following month, Thrasher fell victim to a
friendly fire incident, but fortunately escaped serious damage when attacked by
Swordfish torpedo bombers in error.
.P Thrasher was back in action in September, and made her presence felt by
sinking a small merchant vessel heading in convoy to North Africa. She then
returned to the Eastern Mediterranean, where she sank four more Italian vessels.
.P During October and November, she was back running supplies to Malta, before
being ordered to return to the UK at the end of the year. She was long overdue a
refit after eighteen months of continous patrolling in the Mediterranean.
.P In March, MacKenzie left Thrasher and was replaced by Lt-Cdr Hezlet.
Thrasher's next operation was to assist the midget submarine attack on Tirpitz
and other warships of the Kriegsmarine that were moored in various Norwegian
fjords. Thrasher was one of six submarines that were used to tow the X-craft on
their journey to Norway (see Minisub Counter 4745).
.P Thrasher had two more commanders during World War II; Lt. Newton took over
after the Tirpitz operation and remained with the boat until April 1944 when Lt.
Ainslie became her fifth wartime commander. Having spent 1943 and 1944 in
northern waters, Thrasher was ordered to the Far East at the beginning of 1945.
.P Operating in the eastern Indian Ocean, Thrasher continued her successful
career against enemy shipping, although targets became fewer as the war neared
its conclusion. She ended her final patrol on the 1st August 1945, after which
she was ordered home.
.P HMS Thrasher was scrapped in 1947.
.B
.P HMS Turbulent
.P HMS Turbulent was commissioned in December 1941 and, commanded by Lt-Cdr John
Linton, was immediately sent to the Mediterranean after her work-up. Her career
was to last a little over one year, but she certainly made her presence felt in
that time and Linton was to receive the Victoria Cross, not for one individual
action, but for the way he aggressively commanded both Turbulent and his previous
submarine, Pandora.
.P Turbulent was sent to Egypt to operate in the Eastern Mediterranean as part of
the 1st Submarine Flotilla. This unit was based in Alexandria. She arrived in
March 1942 and immediately achieved success; she sank no less than six Italian
and Greek merchant vessels in that first month alone.
.P Two more sinkings were recorded in the Adriatic the following month, before
Turbulent was ordered south to attack convoys heading for North Africa. It was
off Benghazi in May that she recorded her first enemy warship sunk; the destroyer
Pessagno was sent to the bottom of the sea along with three merchant vessels in
two separate attacks. A further two ships were sunk the following month when
Turbulent and her sister Thrasher attacked a convoy together.
.P In August Turbulent took part in her first "cloak and dagger" operation: she
landed two agents in Crete and picked up another one. She was then quickly back
on patrol and later that month torpedoed and damaged a ship carrying almost 3,000
prisoners of war. Despite the passenger ship being towed to port, sadly over 300
prisoners died in the attack.
.P In October, Turbulent was back operating off the Libyan coast where she sank
a small vessel before turning her attention to her next operation: Torch.
Turbulent was one of the submarines that patrolled a line between Sardinia in the
north and Malta in the south in order to guard against a possible attack by the
Italian Fleet against the Torch invasion shipping. During this operation she
attacked and sank the German submarine depot ship Bengasi. However, the Regia
Marina were not able to interfere with the Anglo-American operation due to a lack
of fuel.
.P Turbulent ended 1942 sinking the Italian merchant ship Marte and began the New
Year where she left off, accounting for three Italian ships in January. But for
Linton, his crew and Turbulent, the end was now in sight. No one knows for
certain how she met her end, but what is known is that she sailed from Algiers on
the 23rd February 1943 and she was declared overdue a month later. It is likely
she was sunk, with all hands, following a depth charge attack while attacking a
merchant ship off Sardinia.
.P During his career, Linton was in charge of two submarines that sank
approximately 100,000 tons of enemy shipping. Turbulent was responsible for most
of this total. She was attacked at least thirteen times and it is believed that
around two hundred and fifty depth charges were launched against her. However,
the Welshman John Linton, his officers and his men, disregarded these dangers and
were a constant thorn in the side of the Axis forces during the brief time they
were in the Mediterranean.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Royal Navy (RN) during World War II. These
World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual vessel. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various RN submarine
classes and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the inter-war years the British tried to get the submarine banned as a
weapon of war. However, without the unanimous agreement of the other major naval
powers, this policy was doomed to failure. Instead therefore, the British
pursued a similar path to that adopted for limiting the size of the surface navy,
i.e. limiting the number of submarines allowed through treaty.
.P The Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1936 limited the number of submarines that
Germany could build to 100% of the British total, and at the outbreak of World
War II the RN's submarine service, like that of the Kriegsmarine, numbered fifty-
seven boats.
.P Largely as a consequence of the lack of money available for defence spending
during the inter-war years, the British concentrated on building submarines that
used tried and trusted technology. This policy meant that, generally speaking,
RN submarines were more reliable than their foreign contemporaries at the start
of hostilities; German and US submarines suffered initially from unreliable
torpedoes, and many of the Italian and Japanese submarine designs proved
cumbersome to operate - a particular problem when diving.
.P While German submarines were designed to wage war principally against the
merchant shipping that kept the United Kingdom fed and provisioned, their British
equivalents were designed primarily to attack enemy warships. As a consequence,
the British boats featured a larger number of torpedo tubes than their rivals in
order to allow the biggest salvo possible.
.P In actual fact, RN submarines were deployed in all theatres during World War
II, and enjoyed success against enemy warships and merchant vessels alike. RN
submarines were also used extensively on "special forces" operations. More than
seventy boats were lost during the war along with approximately 2,000 officers
and men.
.P This write-up looks at the T-Class submarines, and specifically two boats from
the second of the three T-Class groups.
.B
.B Name: HMS Thrasher and HMS Turbulent
.B Engine(s) output: 2,500 hp (Surfaced) 1,450 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 15.25 knots (Surfaced) 8.75 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 11 x 21-inch torpedo tubes, 1 x 4-inch (102mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 1,571 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P The T-Class submarine was the RN's replacement for the O, P and R-class
boats that, by the mid-thirties, could no longer be considered front line
vessels. The first group, consisting of fifteen vessels, was ordered between 1935
and 1938; the second group of seven boats was ordered in 1939; while the thirty-
one boats of the third group were ordered after the outbreak of the Second World
War, between 1940 and 1942. A total of fifty-three boats would ultimately be
built - the largest number of boats in any single RN class of submarine.
.P The design changes between the three groups were not dramatic, rather the
subsequent classes were logical developments of what had gone before. The initial
group evidenced some teething problems, and one boat - HMS Thetis - was lost in
a pre-war accident. Within each group there were also detail changes from boat to
boat.
.P With enemy warships as the prime target for British submarines, the first
group of the T-class were given an incredible ten, forward mounted, torpedo tubes
in order to increase the probability of securing a hit. These were arranged: six
forward (internal), two forward (external) and two amidships (external). A total
of sixteen torpedoes could be carried. The second and third group boats had an
additional stern mounted torpedo tube and the two amidships tubes were altered to
stern facing. Seventeen torpedoes could be carried and there was also room for up
to twelve mines.
.P The boats were all fitted with a 4-inch forward mounted gun and three machine-
guns were also carried.
.P The boats of the T-class were to provide an excellent addition to the RN's
submarine service during the war, and indeed, continued to make a valuable
contribution well beyond 1945; the last of the T-class was not taken out of
service until 1969.
.P HMS Thrasher
.P HMS Thrasher was commissioned in May 1941. After work-up she was sent to the
Mediterranean the following month. Lt-Cdr Cowell commanded her at that time, and
Thrasher's first operation was to deliver supplies to the island of Malta before
continuing her journey east. Having arrived in Alexandria, Egypt, at
the beginning of July, she joined the 1st Submarine Flotilla and spent the
remainder of 1941 in the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean Seas. Operational
success was limited during that time, although on her 2nd patrol, she did manage
to evacuate 78 soldiers that had been trapped on Crete following the withdrawal
of Commonwealth troops from that island earlier that year.
.P 1942 began well for Thrasher, which had been commanded by Lt. MacKenzie since
the previous October. Then, on the 16th February, came an incident that would
have seen the destruction of the boat had it not been for the outstanding bravery
of two members of Thresher's crew.
.P Thresher had sunk an Italian merchant ship and was immediately subjected to
attack by both Italian aircraft and the escort vessels. During the attack, two
unexploded bombs became lodged between the casing and the hull of the submarine.
Having survived the attentions of the enemy, and waiting until after dark,
Thresher re-surfaced and Lt. Peter Roberts and P.O Thomas Gould volunteered to
remove the bombs, the second of which was extremely difficult to get to. They had
to lie flat due to the lack of room in the casing, and they were operating in
total darkness as they literally dragged the bomb to a position from where it
could be pushed clear of the submarine. To add to the unbearable tension of
knowing that the bomb may explode at any second, the two sailors were also
acutely aware that if an enemy patrol found them, Thrasher would have to dive
below the surface; an action that would drown the two men.
.P Roberts and Gould, successfully removed the bombs and they were both awarded
the Victoria Cross - the highest award for bravery in the face of the enemy
available in the British and Commonwealth armed forces.
.P Thrasher was able to continue her patrol, and a move into the Central
Mediterranean in April saw her record sinking four merchant vessels in less than
two months.
.P In June, Thrasher was ordered to provide part of the cover for the Vigorous
convoy operation to Malta, and for which she was stationed off Taranto in order
to try and intercept the Italian Fleet (see HMS Hermione). The convoy was a
failure and the submarine operation met with no success.
.P At the end of that month Thrasher, attacked a convoy along with her sister
Turbulent. They each sunk a merchant ship and Thrasher also sunk an Italian
escort vessel. At the end of the following month, Thrasher fell victim to a
friendly fire incident, but fortunately escaped serious damage when attacked by
Swordfish torpedo bombers in error.
.P Thrasher was back in action in September, and made her presence felt by
sinking a small merchant vessel heading in convoy to North Africa. She then
returned to the Eastern Mediterranean, where she sank four more Italian vessels.
.P During October and November, she was back running supplies to Malta, before
being ordered to return to the UK at the end of the year. She was long overdue a
refit after eighteen months of continuous patrolling in the Mediterranean.
.P In March, MacKenzie left Thrasher and was replaced by Lt-Cdr Hezlet.
Thrasher's next operation was to assist the midget submarine attack on Tirpitz
and other warships of the Kriegsmarine that were moored in various Norwegian
fjords. Thrasher was one of six submarines that were used to tow the X-craft on
their journey to Norway (see Minisub Counter 4745).
.P Thrasher had two more commanders during World War II; Lt. Newton took over
after the Tirpitz operation and remained with the boat until April 1944 when Lt.
Ainslie became her fifth wartime commander. Having spent 1943 and 1944 in
northern waters, Thrasher was ordered to the Far East at the beginning of 1945.
.P Operating in the eastern Indian Ocean, Thrasher continued her successful
career against enemy shipping, although targets became fewer as the war neared
its conclusion. She ended her final patrol on the 1st August 1945, after which
she was ordered home.
.P HMS Thrasher was scrapped in 1947.
.B
.P HMS Turbulent
.P HMS Turbulent was commissioned in December 1941 and, commanded by Lt-Cdr John
Linton, was immediately sent to the Mediterranean after her work-up. Her career
was to last a little over one year, but she certainly made her presence felt in
that time and Linton was to receive the Victoria Cross, not for one individual
action, but for the way he aggressively commanded both Turbulent and his previous
submarine, Pandora.
.P Turbulent was sent to Egypt to operate in the Eastern Mediterranean as part of
the 1st Submarine Flotilla. This unit was based in Alexandria. She arrived in
March 1942 and immediately achieved success; she sank no less than six Italian
and Greek merchant vessels in that first month alone.
.P Two more sinkings were recorded in the Adriatic the following month, before
Turbulent was ordered south to attack convoys heading for North Africa. It was
off Benghazi in May that she recorded her first enemy warship sunk; the destroyer
Pessagno was sent to the bottom of the sea along with three merchant vessels in
two separate attacks. A further two ships were sunk the following month when
Turbulent and her sister Thrasher attacked a convoy together.
.P In August Turbulent took part in her first "cloak and dagger" operation: she
landed two agents in Crete and picked up another one. She was then quickly back
on patrol and later that month torpedoed and damaged a ship carrying almost 3,000
prisoners of war. Despite the passenger ship being towed to port, sadly over 300
prisoners died in the attack.
.P In October, Turbulent was back operating off the Libyan coast where she sank
a small vessel before turning her attention to her next operation: Torch.
Turbulent was one of the submarines that patrolled a line between Sardinia in the
north and Malta in the south in order to guard against a possible attack by the
Italian Fleet against the Torch invasion shipping. During this operation she
attacked and sank the German submarine depot ship Bengasi. However, the Regia
Marina was not able to interfere with the Anglo-American operation due to a lack
of fuel.
.P Turbulent ended 1942 sinking the Italian merchant ship Marte and began the New
Year where she left off, accounting for three Italian ships in January. But for
Linton, his crew and Turbulent, the end was now in sight. No one knows for
certain how she met her end, but what is known is that she sailed from Algiers on
the 23rd February 1943 and she was declared overdue a month later. It is likely
she was sunk, with all hands, following a depth charge attack while attacking a
merchant ship off Sardinia.
.P During his career, Linton was in charge of two submarines that sank
approximately 100,000 tons of enemy shipping. Turbulent was responsible for most
of this total. She was attacked at least thirteen times and it is believed that
around two hundred and fifty depth charges were launched against her. However,
the Welshman John Linton, his officers and his men, disregarded these dangers and
were a constant thorn in the side of the Axis forces during the brief time they
were in the Mediterranean.

Many thanks Extraneous - changes made [:)]

Second and last RN Sub write-up. I will do one more U-boat example and then try and get some more work on the French navy.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Royal Navy (RN) during World War II. These
World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual vessel. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various RN submarine
classes and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the inter-war years the British tried to get the submarine banned as a
weapon of war. However, without the unanimous agreement of the other major naval
powers, this policy was doomed to failure. Instead therefore, the British
pursued a similar path to that adopted for limiting the size of the surface navy,
i.e. limiting the number of submarines allowed through treaty.
.P The Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1936 limited the number of submarines that
Germany could build to 100% of the British total, and at the outbreak of World
War II the RN's submarine service, like that of the Kriegsmarine, numbered fifty-
seven boats.
.P Largely as a consequence of the lack of money available for defence spending
during the inter-war years, the British concentrated on building submarines that
used tried and trusted technology. This policy meant that, generally speaking,
RN submarines were more reliable than their foreign contemporaries at the start
of hostilities; German and US submarines suffered initially from unreliable
torpedoes, and many of the Italian and Japanese submarine designs proved
cumbersome to operate - a particular problem when diving.
.P While German submarines were designed to wage war principally against the
merchant shipping that kept the United Kingdom fed and provisioned, their British
equivalents were designed primarily to attack enemy warships. As a consequence,
the British boats featured a larger number of torpedo tubes than their rivals in
order to allow the biggest salvo possible.
.P In actual fact, RN submarines were deployed in all theatres during World War
II, and enjoyed success against enemy warships and merchant vessels alike. RN
submarines were also used extensively on "special forces" operations. More than
seventy boats were lost during the war along with approximately 2,000 officers
and men.
.P This write-up looks at the T-class submarine and specifically HMS Torbay, a
boat from the first of the three T-class groups.
.B Engine(s) output: 2,500 hp (Surfaced) 1,450 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 15.25 knots (Surfaced) 9 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 10 x 21-inch torpedo tubes, 1 x 4-inch (102mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 1,595 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P The T-Class submarine was the RN's replacement for the O, P and R-class
boats that, by the mid-thirties, could no longer be considered front line
vessels. The first group, consisting of fifteen vessels, was ordered between 1935
and 1938; the second group of seven boats was ordered in 1939; while the thirty-
one boats of the third group were ordered after the outbreak of the Second World
War, between 1940 and 1942. A total of fifty-three boats would ultimately be
built - the largest number of boats in any single RN class of submarine.
.P The design changes between the three groups were not dramatic, rather the
subsequent classes were logical developments of what had gone before. The initial
group evidenced some teething problems, and one boat - HMS Thetis - was lost in
a pre-war accident. Within each group there were also detail changes from boat to
boat.
.P With enemy warships as the prime target for British submarines, the first
group of the T-class were given an incredible ten, forward mounted, torpedo tubes
in order to increase the probability of securing a hit. These were arranged: six
forward (internal), two forward (external) and two amidships (external). A total
of sixteen torpedoes could be carried. The second and third group boats had an
additional stern mounted torpedo tube and the two amidships tubes were altered to
stern facing. Seventeen torpedoes could be carried and there was also room for up
to twelve mines.
.P The boats were all fitted with a 4-inch forward mounted gun and three machine-
guns were also carried.
.P The boats of the T-class were to provide an excellent addition to the RN's
submarine service during the war, and indeed, continued to make a valuable
contribution well beyond 1945; the last of the T-class was not taken out of
service until 1969.
.P HMS Torbay was commissioned in January 1941 and was placed under the command
of the colourful Lt-Cdr Anthony Miers. Under his brilliant leadership, Torbay was
to make herself a thorough nuisance to the Axis forces in the Mediterranean over
a period of eighteen months. In the process, Miers was to win the Victoria Cross,
the highest award for bravery in the face of the enemy.
.P During her work-up Torbay was in a collision with a merchant vessel, although
she managed to survive that incident without too much damage. Then, when nearing
the end of her work-up at the end of March, she was suddenly ordered at short
notice to the Bay of Biscay. This order was in response to a possible Atlantic
breakout from the port of Brest by the German battlecruisers Scharnhorst and
Gneisenau. The Admiralty ordered a submarine patrol line to counter this threat,
although no breakout was ultimately attempted.
.P With the threat from the German ships abated, Torbay was ordered to sail for
Gibraltar, from where she would begin her first Mediterranean patrol. The patrol
was designed to see her heading in an easterly direction and ultimately end her
journey at Alexandria, Egypt, where she would join the boats of the 1st Submarine
Flotilla.
.P Torbay's next patrol took her into the Aegean Sea where she was quick to get
amongst the enemy. Three caiques, two tankers and one Italian schooner were sunk
before Torbay returned to Alexandria in mid-June.
.P Further success followed on her next patrol, also in the Aegean; the Italian
submarine Jantina, four German sailing vessels, one tanker and three smaller
ships were sunk together with one tanker damaged. However, some have subsequently
tried to pin a war crime charge on Lt-cdr Miers for what happened during an
encounter with one of the German ships; LVI. The writer believes these
accusations to be a total distortion of the facts and simply not worth repeating.
.P Torbay's next patrol took her to the Gulf of Sirte where she met with much
reduced success. Having attacked, and missed, two escorted merchant ships, Torbay
found herself under a heavy and sustained attack from the torpedo boat Partenope.
The submarine was able to get away and, after sinking a small sailing ship,
continued to Crete where, under the cover of darkness, she managed to evacuate
over 100 Allied soldiers.
.P After a refit, Torbay returned to action in September for what was a largely
frustrating patrol. She managed to sink a merchant ship in a Cretan harbour, but
was otherwise unsuccessful despite a number of attacks being launched - and for
which she once more came under heavy fire.
.P Torbay's next patrol saw her back off Libya for another secret mission. In
October, Torbay had landed an advance party who were to reconnoitre the ground
to prepare for Operation Flipper; an attack by special forces against the
headquarters of General Rommel, the commander of the Afrika Korps. The following
month Torbay and her sister boat Talisman were used to land further troops
behind enemy lines for the actual attack. Unfortunately, the plan went very
wrong - not least because Rommel was not even in North Africa at the time - and
the commander of the expedition, Lt-Col Keyes, was killed during the raid.
.P The last month of 1941 saw Torbay back on familiar ground in the Eastern
Mediterranean and Aegean Seas. She sank a number of small sailing vessels as well
as applying the coup de grace to the transport ship Sebastiano Venier that had
previously been damaged by the submarine HMS Porpoise.
.P In January 1942 Torbay undertook another clandestine operation, this time to
land special forces operatives on Crete. The following month she began her tenth
patrol in the Mediterranean, and it was this patrol that was to provide Miers
with opportunity to earn his Victoria Cross. Torbay's patrol once again centred
on the Eastern Mediterranean. The start of the patrol saw two merchant vessels
sunk and Torbay survive three attacks from Italian escort vessels.
.P Then, on the night of the 4th/5th March, Miers ordered Torbay into the channel
leading to Corfu harbour. Earlier that day Torbay had been frustratingly out of
range of a four-ship convoy that was heading for the harbour. Incredibly, that
night, Miers and his crew had to surface just outside the harbour in order to
re-charge the submarine's batteries. Having done so, without detection, Miers
then chose to enter the harbour where he successfully attacked two ships before
retreating with all possible speed. Torbay was hunted for many hours in the
tight confines of the channel, but once again, his pursuers were to be out of
luck. It was an incredibly audacious attack.
.P In April, Torbay undertook her last patrol before returning to the UK for a
much needed refit. Despite being slightly damaged during an air attack at the
start of the operation, Torbay still managed further success: two German and two
Italian ships meeting their end at the hands of this remarkable submarine and her
equally remarkable commanding officer.
.P For Miers however, this patrol would be his last aboard Torbay. By the time
her refit was complete at the end of 1942, Torbay had a new commander, Lt
Clutterbuck, and a new theatre of operations. Torbay was one of the submarines
that were stationed off Norway to guard against any potential Kriegsmarine
attack on the Arctic convoy JW51B. Torbay failed to come into contact with any
enemy vessels and returned to the UK early in the New Year.
.P After this patrol, Torbay headed back to the more familiar - and warmer -
surroundings of the Mediterranean. She reached Gibraltar at the end of January
and then undertook her first Mediterranean patrol of her 2nd commission in the
Western Mediterranean. At its conclusion, during which she sank a German merchant
ship, Torbay headed for Algiers.
.P 1943 was another busy year for Torbay. Her next patrol began at the end of
February and this time took her to the Gulf of Genoa. She began by despatching
an Italian minesweeper off Corsica and followed this up by sinking two German
merchant ships. Further north a small Italian auxiliary vessel was sunk, followed
by a merchant ship, before Torbay bombarded the Italian town of Imperia. She
was back in Algiers at the start of March.
.P Torbay's next patrol saw her operate north of Sicily. There, she successfully
attacked two merchant ships and a fishing vessel before returning to Algiers and
a hotter than expected reception. While moored in the harbour she was damaged
during an air raid on the port. Torbay had to sail for Gibraltar to be properly
repaired, but she was ready to resume service in June and promptly returned to
Algiers.
.P Torbay resumed where she had left off and undertook a further patrol in the
Tyrrehenian Sea; sinking another three Italian ships. She then started her next
patrol from Malta and sank another two ships in the Eastern Mediterranean before
sailing for Beirut. Due to a defect that required repair, Torbay was not ready to
begin her next patrol until mid-October.
.P Torbay undertook five more patrols in the Aegean sea between October 1943 and
February 1944. During these patrols she sank five ships and a floating dock.
However, her final patrol would prove fruitless, and upon its conclusion she was
ordered back to the UK for a refit and to prepare her for service in the Far
East. She arrived in the UK in March 1944 and was ready to sail for Trincomalee,
Ceylon, in December. She also had a new commanding officer in situ - Lt.cdr
Norman. Torbay arrived at her new home in January 1945, whereupon she joined the
4th Submarine Flotilla.
.P For her first patrol in March, Torbay was ordered to assist a special forces
operation on the Arakan coast; Operation Baboon. In all, Torbay completed five
patrols in the Far East, three of which were used to assist special forces
operations. However, enemy targets were becoming few and far between in the
Eastern Indian Ocean at that point in the war; Torbay's victims totalled just two
coasters and two junks.
.P Torbay's final war patrol - her 29th - ended on the 24th August 1945. She then
began the long journey back to the UK, where she arrived at the end of October.
.P HMS Torbay was scrapped in 1947.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Royal Navy (RN) during World War II. These
World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than any
specific individual vessel. The dates printed on the back of the counters do not
tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various RN submarine
classes and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P During the inter-war years the British tried to get the submarine banned as a
weapon of war. However, without the unanimous agreement of the other major naval
powers, this policy was doomed to failure. Instead therefore, the British
pursued a similar path to that adopted for limiting the size of the surface navy,
i.e. limiting the number of submarines allowed through treaty.
.P The Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1936 limited the number of submarines that
Germany could build to 100% of the British total, and at the outbreak of World
War II the RN's submarine service, like that of the Kriegsmarine, numbered fifty-
seven boats.
.P Largely as a consequence of the lack of money available for defence spending
during the inter-war years, the British concentrated on building submarines that
used tried and trusted technology. This policy meant that, generally speaking,
RN submarines were more reliable than their foreign contemporaries at the start
of hostilities; German and US submarines suffered initially from unreliable
torpedoes, and many of the Italian and Japanese submarine designs proved
cumbersome to operate - a particular problem when diving.
.P While German submarines were designed to wage war principally against the
merchant shipping that kept the United Kingdom fed and provisioned, their British
equivalents were designed primarily to attack enemy warships. As a consequence,
the British boats featured a larger number of torpedo tubes than their rivals in
order to allow the biggest salvo possible.
.P In actual fact, RN submarines were deployed in all theatres during World War
II, and enjoyed success against enemy warships and merchant vessels alike. RN
submarines were also used extensively on "special forces" operations. More than
seventy boats were lost during the war along with approximately 2,000 officers
and men.
.P This write-up looks at the T-class submarine and specifically HMS Torbay, a
boat from the first of the three T-class groups.
.B Engine(s) output: 2,500 hp (Surfaced) 1,450 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 15.25 knots (Surfaced) 9 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 10 x 21-inch torpedo tubes, 1 x 4-inch (102mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 1,595 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P The T-Class submarine was the RN's replacement for the O, P and R-class
boats that, by the mid-thirties, could no longer be considered front line
vessels. The first group, consisting of fifteen vessels, was ordered between 1935
and 1938; the second group of seven boats was ordered in 1939; while the thirty-
one boats of the third group were ordered after the outbreak of the Second World
War, between 1940 and 1942. A total of fifty-three boats would ultimately be
built - the largest number of boats in any single RN class of submarine.
.P The design changes between the three groups were not dramatic, rather the
subsequent classes were logical developments of what had gone before. The initial
group evidenced some teething problems, and one boat - HMS Thetis - was lost in
a pre-war accident. Within each group there were also detail changes from boat to
boat.
.P With enemy warships as the prime target for British submarines, the first
group of the T-class were given an incredible ten, forward mounted, torpedo tubes
in order to increase the probability of securing a hit. These were arranged: six
forward (internal), two forward (external) and two amidships (external). A total
of sixteen torpedoes could be carried. The second and third group boats had an
additional stern mounted torpedo tube and the two amidships tubes were altered to
stern facing. Seventeen torpedoes could be carried and there was also room for up
to twelve mines.
.P The boats were all fitted with a 4-inch forward mounted gun and three machine-
guns were also carried.
.P The boats of the T-class were to provide an excellent addition to the RN's
submarine service during the war, and indeed, continued to make a valuable
contribution well beyond 1945; the last of the T-class was not taken out of
service until 1969.
.P HMS Torbay was commissioned in January 1941 and was placed under the command
of the colourful Lt-Cdr Anthony Miers. Under his brilliant leadership, Torbay was
to make herself a thorough nuisance to the Axis forces in the Mediterranean over
a period of eighteen months. In the process, Miers was to win the Victoria Cross,
the highest award for bravery in the face of the enemy.
.P During her work-up Torbay was in a collision with a merchant vessel, although
she managed to survive that incident without too much damage. Then, when nearing
the end of her work-up at the end of March, she was suddenly ordered at short
notice to the Bay of Biscay. This order was in response to a possible Atlantic
breakout from the port of Brest by the German battlecruisers Scharnhorst and
Gneisenau. The Admiralty ordered a submarine patrol line to counter this threat,
although no breakout was ultimately attempted.
.P With the threat from the German ships abated, Torbay was ordered to sail for
Gibraltar, from where she would begin her first Mediterranean patrol. The patrol
was designed to see her heading in an easterly direction and ultimately end her
journey at Alexandria, Egypt, where she would join the boats of the 1st Submarine
Flotilla.
.P Torbay's next patrol took her into the Aegean Sea where she was quick to get
amongst the enemy. Three caiques, two tankers and one Italian schooner were sunk
before Torbay returned to Alexandria in mid-June.
.P Further success followed on her next patrol, also in the Aegean; the Italian
submarine Jantina, four German sailing vessels, one tanker and three smaller
ships were sunk together with one tanker damaged. However, some have subsequently
tried to pin a war crime charge on Lt-cdr Miers for what happened during an
encounter with one of the German ships; LVI. The writer believes these
accusations to be a total distortion of the facts and simply not worth repeating.
.P Torbay's next patrol took her to the Gulf of Sirte where she met with much
reduced success. Having attacked, and missed, two escorted merchant ships, Torbay
found herself under a heavy and sustained attack from the torpedo boat Partenope.
The submarine was able to get away and, after sinking a small sailing ship,
continued to Crete where, under the cover of darkness, she managed to evacuate
over 100 Allied soldiers.
.P After a refit, Torbay returned to action in September for what was a largely
frustrating patrol. She managed to sink a merchant ship in a Cretan harbour, but
was otherwise unsuccessful despite a number of attacks being launched - and for
which she once more came under heavy fire.
.P Torbay's next patrol saw her back off Libya for another secret mission. In
October, Torbay had landed an advance party who were to reconnoitre the ground
to prepare for Operation Flipper; an attack by special forces against the
headquarters of General Rommel, the commander of the Afrika Korps. The following
month Torbay and her sister boat Talisman were used to land further troops
behind enemy lines for the actual attack. Unfortunately, the plan went very
wrong - not least because Rommel was not even in North Africa at the time - and
the commander of the expedition, Lt-Col Keyes, was killed during the raid.
.P The last month of 1941 saw Torbay back on familiar ground in the Eastern
Mediterranean and Aegean Seas. She sank a number of small sailing vessels as well
as applying the coup de grace to the transport ship Sebastiano Venier that had
previously been damaged by the submarine HMS Porpoise.
.P In January 1942 Torbay undertook another clandestine operation, this time to
land special forces operatives on Crete. The following month she began her tenth
patrol in the Mediterranean, and it was this patrol that was to provide Miers
with opportunity to earn his Victoria Cross. Torbay's patrol area was again centred
on the Eastern Mediterranean. The start of the patrol saw two merchant vessels
sunk and Torbay survive three attacks from Italian escort vessels.
.P Then, on the night of the 4th/5th March, Miers ordered Torbay into the channel
leading to Corfu harbour. Earlier that day Torbay had been frustratingly out of
range of a four-ship convoy that was heading for the harbour. Incredibly, that
night, Miers and his crew had to surface just outside the harbour in order to
re-charge the submarine's batteries. Having done so, without detection, Miers
then chose to enter the harbour where he successfully attacked two ships before
retreating with all possible speed. Torbay was hunted for many hours in the
tight confines of the channel, but once again, his pursuers were to be out of
luck. It was an incredibly audacious attack.
.P In April, Torbay undertook her last patrol before returning to the UK for a
much needed refit. Despite being slightly damaged during an air attack at the
start of the operation, Torbay still managed further success: two German and two
Italian ships meeting their end at the hands of this remarkable submarine and her
equally remarkable commanding officer.
.P For Miers however, this patrol would be his last aboard Torbay. By the time
her refit was complete at the end of 1942, Torbay had a new commander, Lt
Clutterbuck, and a new theatre of operations. Torbay was one of the submarines
that were stationed off Norway to guard against any potential Kriegsmarine
attack on the Arctic convoy JW51B. Torbay failed to come into contact with any
enemy vessels and returned to the UK early in the New Year.
.P After this patrol, Torbay headed back to the more familiar - and warmer -
surroundings of the Mediterranean. She reached Gibraltar at the end of January
and then undertook her first Mediterranean patrol of her 2nd commission in the
Western Mediterranean. At its conclusion, during which she sank a German merchant
ship, Torbay headed for Algiers.
.P 1943 was another busy year for Torbay. Her next patrol began at the end of
February and this time took her to the Gulf of Genoa. She began by despatching
an Italian minesweeper off Corsica and followed this up by sinking two German
merchant ships. Further north a small Italian auxiliary vessel was sunk followed
by a merchant ship, before Torbay bombarded the Italian town of Imperia. She
was back in Algiers at the start of March.
.P Torbay's next patrol saw her operate north of Sicily. There, she successfully
attacked two merchant ships and a fishing vessel before returning to Algiers and
a hotter than expected reception. While moored in the harbour she was damaged
during an air raid on the port. Torbay had to sail for Gibraltar to be properly
repaired, but she was ready to resume service in June and promptly returned to
Algiers.
.P Torbay resumed where she had left off and undertook a further patrol in the
Tyrrehenian Sea; sinking another three Italian ships. She then started her next
patrol from Malta and sank another two ships in the Eastern Mediterranean before
sailing for Beirut. Due to a defect that required repair, Torbay was not ready to
begin her next patrol until mid-October.
.P Torbay undertook five more patrols in the Aegean sea between October 1943 and
February 1944. During these patrols she sank five ships and a floating dock.
However, her final patrol would prove fruitless, and upon its conclusion she was
ordered back to the UK for a refit and to prepare her for service in the Far
East. She arrived in the UK in March 1944 and was ready to sail for Trincomalee,
Ceylon, in December. She also had a new commanding officer in situ - Lt.cdr
Norman. Torbay arrived at her new home in January 1945, whereupon she joined the
4th Submarine Flotilla.
.P For her first patrol in March, Torbay was ordered to assist a special mission on
the Arakan coast; Operation Baboon. In all, Torbay completed five
patrols in the Far East, three of which were used to assist special missions.
However, enemy targets were becoming few and far between in the
Eastern Indian Ocean at that point in the war; Torbay's victims totalled just two
coasters and two junks.
.P Torbay's final war patrol - her 29th - ended on the 24th August 1945. She then
began the long journey back to the UK, where she arrived at the end of October.
.P HMS Torbay was scrapped in 1947.



Caique
1: (slang) a light skiff used on the Bosporus
2: (slang) a Levantine sailing vessel
3: two species of parrots in the genus Pionites


Uboat.net - HMS Torbay



Operations are special missions.

Special Missions Mediterranean:

October 10, 1941 landing Army Captain John Edward Haselden behind enemy lines on the coast of Libya to reconnoiter for a possible operation in conjunction with local Arabs

November 10, 1941 Operation 'Flipper' - Landing commandos behind enemy lines to kill the commander of the Afrika Korps - Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel.

During the nights of January 12/13, 1942 and January 13/14, 1942 landing eight men and supplies on a beach on the south coast of Crete.


Special Missions Asia:

March 1945 Operation Baboon

April 1945 Two Missions (no details)

May 1945 One Mission (no details)

August 7, 1945 Sepcial operation (no details)

and now an example of a French sub; the tragic Surcouf.

.P These write-ups give a brief history of one or more vessels from each of the
main classes of submarine used by the Marine Nationale (MN). Note that post the
armistice with Germany, the Vichy French navy was known as the Forces Maritimes
Françaises (FMF), while the Free French fleet was known as the Forces Navales
Françaises Libres (FNFL).
.P These World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than
any specific individual vessel. The dates printed on the back of the counters do
not tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various MN submarine
classes and therefore the counter date in most cases should be ignored.
.P The French had a large submarine fleet at the outbreak of World War II,
although at eighty boats, their submarine service was smaller than their main
rivals; the Italian navy.
.P The MN's submarines could be divided into three broad categories: Large, long-
range boats for use in protecting the overseas empire, commerce raiding and
operating with the fleet; smaller, shorter ranged boats, ideal for the relatively
confined waters of the Mediterranean; and mine-laying vessels.
.P After the French surrendered in June 1940, French submarines met a variety of
fates, and while some crews remained loyal to the Vichy regime, others fought for
the Free French.
.P This write-up looks at the Surcouf-class.
.B Name: Surcouf
.B Engine(s) output: 7,600 hp (Surfaced) 3,400 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 18.5 knots (Surfaced), 10 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 8 x 21.7-inch torpedo tubes and 2 x 8-inch (203mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 4,304 tons
.B Diving Depth: 250 ft
.P The three-boat Surcouf-class was authorised in the late twenties. The
class was designed partly to circumvent a loop-hole in the 1922 Washington Naval
Treaty. This treaty did not restrict submarine building, but did limit the
tonnage that could be used to build surface ships. The resourceful French
resolved to build a class of submarine cruisers, fitted with two 8-inch guns and
that carried its own aircraft. The idea was that these large, powerful, long-
range boats could operate against enemy merchant shipping and keep any escorts at
bay using the superior range of their large guns.
.P This concept was not new; the German navy had experimented with a submarine
cruiser design during the First World War, and, using this technology, the main
naval nations continued with experiments of their own at the end of that
conflict.
.P Note: submarines were later included in naval treaty limitations and Surcouf's
planned sister boats were cancelled.
.P Surcouf was, until the arrival of the Japanese I-400, the largest submarine in
the world. However, submarines of this size brought numerous problems, not least
stability, diving speed, and the sheer number of men needed to crew each one. As
a result, by the start of the Second World War, the British had abandoned its
submarine cruiser and only the Surcouf remained operational.
.P Surcouf was fitted with an impressive array of weapons. She had no less than
eight 21.7-inch torpedo tubes, mounted four in the bow and four, externally, in
the stern. Fourteen of these torpedoes could be carried. Additionally, she had
a further four, smaller, 15.7-inch torpedo tubes and a supply of eight such
torpedoes.
.P Her 8-inch guns were mounted in a twin, watertight turret. These guns were of
the same design as that fitted to French heavy cruisers, and they had a range of
30,000 yards. For anti-aircraft (AA) defence, Surcouf carried two 37mm and no
less than four 13.2mm guns. She also carried a hangar for her own float plane; a
small Besson MB411.
.P As required by her commerce raiding role, Surcouf had an impressive range;
10,000 nautical miles at 10 knots. Her top speed was also impressive at just
under 20 knots on the surface.
.P Surcouf was named after the famous 18th Century French privateer, Robert
Surcouf, who came to prominence fighting the British Royal Navy during the French
Revolution.
.P Surcouf entered service in May 1934. At the start of World War II she was
based at Cherbourg in northern France. She was used to assist the passage of
convoys from Canada in the early months of the war, although, as was the case all
her career, she regularly required repair and maintenance work.
.P When the Germans overran France in June 1940, Surcouf was at Brest having yet
another round of repair work carried out. She was patched up sufficiently to
allow her to set sail for the UK before the Germans could capture her. Her
commander, Capitaine de corvette Martin, put into port on the south coast, at the
Royal Navy base of Devonport, Plymouth.
.P The French signed an armistice with the Germans shortly thereafter, thus
beginning the countdown to one of World War II's saddest episodes. With France
out of the war, the British Commonwealth was alone in the fight against the
Fascists. The British were resolved to continue the fight, and knew that under no
circumstances could they allow the French fleet to fall into German hands. The
British requested that the French fleet be either turned over to them, handed
over to the neutral Americans or have the French put the ships out of action
themselves. If they failed to choose any of these options, then the British would
use what ever force was necessary to ensure the ships stayed out of Axis hands.
.P The decision taken by the French commanders largely depended upon where they
were at the time. While blood was spilled at Mers-el-Kebir (see Bretagne) and
Dakar (see Richelieu) those ships in the UK and at Alexandria were taken without
a fight (see Paris); with one notable exception - on board the Surcouf.
.P Capitaine Martin realised that the British may decide to seize his submarine,
and while at Plymouth, he ordered guards to be posted and for the boat to be
sealed - only one hatch was to be open at anytime. His instincts were not wrong,
and in the early hours of the 3rd July 1940, sixty Royal Navy sailors - mostly
submariners from HMS Thames - boarded the Surcouf.
.P Martin was away from the Surcouf at that time, aboard the old battleship
Paris, and there was a brief but tense exchange between the British and French
officers on the submarine. One of the French officers, fearing that they would be
killed by the British, fired the first shot, liberally emptying his revolver's
magazine in the small space of the wardroom. Two British officers fell, mortally
wounded, while a third British sailor was shot dead by a second Frenchmen. As
the third sailor fell toward the ground, he killed a French sailor who was at
that time disposing of manuals and important technical papers.
.P The French officers decided to surrender, rather than continue with the
bloodshed, and the British - showing admirable restraint given that three of
their comrades were dead or dying - accepted. The fight aboard Surcouf was just
the first of many sad episodes that day...
.P Just a handful of the Surcouf's crew volunteered to fight against Germany with
De Gaulle and the FNFL, the remainder voted to return home. Surcouf was re-crewed
and put back into service. Now commanded by Cdr Blaison, she returned to Canada
to assist in convoy escort operations. While in North America she was at the
centre of another serious diplomatic incident.
.P The tensions between the President Roosevelt and General Charles De Gaulle
were a cause for serious concern throughout the Second World war. This story
is outside the scope of this write-up, however Surcouf was involved in one such
potentially explosive affair, when she was part of the Free French force that was
sent to liberate the islands of St.Pierre and Miquelon, off the coast of
Newfoundland. The US government were at that time walking a difficult line in
trying to deal with the Vichy regime to the best effect and were left embarrassed
by this act, having previously guaranteed the territorial integrity of the
islands. The affair ultimately blew over, but Surcouf's role in the operation was
to feed the conspiracy theorists over her eventual fate.
.P With Japan now in the war, it was decided to send Surcouf to the Pacific,
where it was hoped she could prove useful in the war against Japanese merchant
shipping. This was a chance for Surcouf to be finally used for the role for which
she was designed. Sadly, she was never to get the chance to show what she could
do. While on her way to Australia, on the 18th February 1942, she is believed to
have been accidentally rammed by a US merchant ship, Thomson Lykes. She sank with
all hands.
.P Surcouf was dogged by controversy during her brief operational career, and in
addition she has always been the subject of numerous conspiracy theories -
particularly surrounding her sinking. May be one day all will be revealed?