The penalty for using planes above 30k seems negligible in my experience
Not to confuise this game and reality [8D] but, 30K in a non pressurized aircraft with simple O2 mask is not a critical altitude. Things do not start to really get to be a problem where a O2 mask and a suit to keep warm is about 45K feet. Then after that pressurized O2 is required. At 63,000 feet blood boils .. so a pressurized suit is needed.
Beyond these factors flying a turbocharged aircraft at 40,000 feet has a different problem. Heat .. rather the inability to shed heat and engine wear ..
I'll have to find it again, but I read something a while back that led me to believe there were significant factors increasing fatigue and pilot difficulties at altitudes of 30k and up. I'l have a look for it later.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
The penalty for using planes above 30k seems negligible in my experience
Not to confuise this game and reality [8D] but, 30K in a non pressurized aircraft with simple O2 mask is not a critical altitude. Things do not start to really get to be a problem where a O2 mask and a suit to keep warm is about 45K feet. Then after that pressurized O2 is required. At 63,000 feet blood boils .. so a pressurized suit is needed.
Beyond these factors flying a turbocharged aircraft at 40,000 feet has a different problem. Heat .. rather the inability to shed heat and engine wear ..
I'll have to find it again, but I read something a while back that led me to believe there were significant factors increasing fatigue and pilot difficulties at altitudes of 30k and up. I'l have a look for it later.
It isn't a preset hard limit. The additional ill effects come in when flying a single engine aircraft at 80% of it's maximum ceiling. See post #48 of this thread.
I have enormous respect for your opinion and really wanted Chittagong, but I suffered from the lack of IJ airbases in range. I found myself unable to recover DIS from the initially successful ground attacks due to Allied bombing and unable to keep Cox's Bazaar open for LRCAP purposes. Finally and most importantly, I couldn't save my gains in reduction of fort levels because I can't reach Chittagong with bombers. Thus CF rebuilt to level three forts. I know I can bombard with the IJN to work over Chittagong, but that can't solve the air superiority issues, and the bombing plus damage from ground assaults threatens to hollow out my divisions.
I'm very open to trying for the base because of the strategic benefits, but from a tactical perspective I'm stymied. As far as additional assets I have one reasonably fresh infantry division and a small armored unit. How would you take the base in these circumstances?
I'd like to see a screenshot of the area showing force dispositions etc before providing considered commentary. But the order to retreat is without any doubt premature as your position would not have deteriorated in the time before your inbound bombardment TF arrived. Are you so certain that the enemy position is not equally suffering?
How are your P40s doing? Are they dying (1:10 or worse) in droves like mine do or can they be used in your game?
My P-40Ks are holding their own vs Mr Tojo. One of the keys of A2A combat are numbers. Losses are near even when the numbers are even in the skies. If I can get near 1.5 to 1 odds, then his Tojo take some serious losses. Which of course he can replace. [;)]
I see Damian's thread in Tech Support as a good thing and feel that there are issues with A2A. One of the things I would like to see modeled would be for the Allies to have the three groups of 25 fighters be able to combine into a 75 plane FG starting sometime in '43 and continue throughout the end of the game. I already know I'll be doing some mod stuff for my next game.
I don't share your thoughts.
A less than optimum orchestrated operation being smashed is never a good basis for making hasty judgements. Nor have the posters there bothered to do their sums; instead immediately jumping onto the bandwagon because it reinforces their prejudices.
Having American 75 plane fighter groups would fix zero (pun intended). How long then before the Japanese players start to complain about going up with much smaller units against the 75lb gorillas.
Not to confuise this game and reality [8D] but, 30K in a non pressurized aircraft with simple O2 mask is not a critical altitude. Things do not start to really get to be a problem where a O2 mask and a suit to keep warm is about 45K feet. Then after that pressurized O2 is required. At 63,000 feet blood boils .. so a pressurized suit is needed.
Beyond these factors flying a turbocharged aircraft at 40,000 feet has a different problem. Heat .. rather the inability to shed heat and engine wear ..
I'll have to find it again, but I read something a while back that led me to believe there were significant factors increasing fatigue and pilot difficulties at altitudes of 30k and up. I'l have a look for it later.
It isn't a preset hard limit. The additional ill effects come in when flying a single engine aircraft at 80% of it's maximum ceiling. See post #48 of this thread.
Thans Alfred. Very informative thread on this in game.
I should have made it more clear, but my statement was referring to actual historical situations and evidence that flying high posed many problems for pilots during the war period, especially early in the war. Thus high sweeps as practiced in game would seemingly not produce better performance based on some of this information.
Found the very short paper highlighting effects on the body above 18,000ft.
[font="Trebuchet MS"]Above 18,000 feet, aircrew performance was frequently impaired by hypoxia, decompression sickness (DCS), and hypothermia.[/font]
I'll have to find it again, but I read something a while back that led me to believe there were significant factors increasing fatigue and pilot difficulties at altitudes of 30k and up. I'l have a look for it later.
It isn't a preset hard limit. The additional ill effects come in when flying a single engine aircraft at 80% of it's maximum ceiling. See post #48 of this thread.
Thans Alfred. Very informative thread on this in game.
I should have made it more clear, but my statement was referring to actual historical situations and evidence that flying high posed many problems for pilots during the war period, especially early in the war. Thus high sweeps as practiced in game would seemingly not produce better performance based on some of this information.
Found the very short paper highlighting effects on the body above 18,000ft.
[font="Trebuchet MS"]Above 18,000 feet, aircrew performance was frequently impaired by hypoxia, decompression sickness (DCS), and hypothermia.[/font]
back that led me to believe there were significant factors increasing fatigue and pilot difficulties at altitudes of 30k and up. I'l have a look for it later
This page is assuming no equipment. You are comparing apples and oranges .. This huge page assumes no equipment. As far as hypoxia goes the break happends at 35K feet in that you need a sealed mask. ..But a simple face mask works quite well up to 35K feet. After that you have to have a sealed mask. This article will provide a much better feel of the problem of high altitude flight.(http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html)
As long as the fighter pilot had a sealed mask and a flight suit 41K - 44K is tiring but not fatal .. However, heat damage at high alttudes to the turbocharger is fatal to the engine over time, and the turbochargers of that day did not understand problems like "cooking." The oil becomes so thin with the latent heat, that the oil between the turbine bearings cooks and stops providing lubercation protection. It might be cold at altitude but the high-altutude density means no transfer of heat to the air and subsequnet cooling [Heck the TSIO-i360-LB of the 1970's did not understand these problems [8D] ] -I wish my article on Turbocharging in MOA magazine was still on line. I think I included a pdf version answering a thread 2 years ago in this forum when this came up ..
[I am waiting for someone to quote the FAR's on the 25,000' maxmium operating alttude for non-pressurized aircraft ..[8D] ]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
This is perfect Crackaces. Not assuming anything, or comparing apples to oranges, just reaching for some information and trying to find more. What you've added is great. Not only are there issues with pilots but the planes, and especially the superchargers of the very high fliers.
All I'm trying to find out is what is plausible and a likely good rule in game to approximate the difficulties of flying up there.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
This is perfect Crackaces. Not assuming anything, or comparing apples to oranges, just reaching for some information and trying to find more. What you've added is great. Not only are there issues with pilots but the planes, and especially the superchargers of the very high fliers.
All I'm trying to find out is what is plausible and a likely good rule in game to approximate the difficulties of flying up there.
Yes the information you provided is if you do not have any O2 equipment or it fails. The faillure part is particularly distressing because as pilots get high altitude training find out .. unconsciousness and subsequnet death are insidious and rapid above 35,000 feet. But the real problem not reflected in the game quite yet is the toll not on the pilots given the stuff works most of the time, but the toll on aircooled turbocharged reciprocating aircraft engines. I can say from experiece just flying point to point with a "modern" aircooled turbocharged reciprocating aircraft engine no IJ trying to shoot me down .. that keeping that baby flying was expensive and fraught with downtime. The two worst engines were the TSIO-360-LB and the TSIO- 520-K, along with the GTSIO-520-D. The latter requires a TBO of 800 hours. High altitude flying at 25,000 feet worsened my problem greatly needing Top overhauls and Turbocharger rebuilds that was not as frequent flying non-turbochanged aircraft below 18,000 feet. I can imagine the stress of 40K feet. I was reading the Wiki for the P&W R2800 Double Wasp and desgin expectations for 50 hours of frontline service!
Ok back to the AAR! [:'(]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Cool discussion about high altitude ops. Also, the numerous posts may freak out CF if he's paying attention to the boards, so thanks for the maskirovka!
Alfred, I'll get a screenshot up. My main issue was starting to see my divisions get degraded without a method to suppress enemy fort construction. Until forts dropped I couldn't win, and my ability to continue attacking to drop forts was fast disappearing due to DIS from both my own ground attacks and the enemy air attacks.
Subs
A Lily reports a hit on Trusty near Singapore. This is about the 100th claim by a Japanese pilot or ASW skipper that this particular sub has been hit.
SE Fleet
Nadi makes airfield 6. Tanaka Force, which sortied some time ago in response to the sighting of a large enemy SCTF near Luganville, returns to Truk.
Burma
We sweep Meiktila but find no CAP. Recon shows 4 fighters now at Schwebo, probably the survivors of the P-40 group.
Allied air switches to the port at Cox's Bazaar now that 17th Army has left the Chittagong hex. This tells Cribtop Intel that CF believes we will go for a sea evacuation, which of course is not our intention.
The Allies again BA Taung Gyi and again IJA arty does a good job, inflicting 93(2) casualties. 33rd Division is shifting from unthreatened Prome toward Taung Gyi.
This has not been a glorious game for either side's silent service. Today, however, the brave crew of I-155 (which somehow always ends up one of my best subs across multiple games), does their part. Spotting a big SCTF near Busselton containing CA Astoria, CLs Leander and Achilles, and 4 DDs, the sub torpedoes both Leander and Astoria in two separate attacks and escapes without a hit in return. Nice. Leander is badly damaged with a critical hit and engine damage, Astoria less so but still hurting. The enemy ships already sported smoke before being hit. Criptop Intel speculates they were heading out of Perth towards Sydney to finish repairing battle damage from Exmouth.
A mini-sub long on station in Chittagong harbor is DC'd and sunk by what looks like a DD FT TF.
Gar duds on a supply laden AMC near Toyohara. Trusty is bombed again near Groote Natoena by a Lily.
5th Fleet
With the departure of the enemy CVE, we resume the garrisoning of the Kuriles.
Southern Army
Sabang forts go to 6, Dobo forts to 1.
Burma
The Allied air force keeps after the port at Cox's Bazaar.
After yesterday's events, we ordered the Perth wolf pack to swarm around Busselton. The move bears fruit as I-170 torpedoes and sinks CA Astoria. Banzai!
In return, Gar sinks an xAKL near Toyohara. K-XIV misses a PB near Singers.
Something Allied hits a mine, either a sub near Singapore or a kamikaze xAK at Broome. A TF symbol at Broome shows something slipped past our subs and LBA. Tracker claims an Allied DD went down, so maybe it was an escort at Broome.
4th Fleet
Kwajalein makes forts 5.
Not much else to report as weather shuts down Burma other than milk runs by our Helens. A quiet day.
I've caught up and passed you in my PBEM game. It helps when you have a day like yesterday when 4 turns are done. Interesting to see where each of us are at.
All I wanted for Easter was a turn from my opponent... not seen yet!
It certainly is interesting to see how much variety the game can produce. While there are a few issues overall I think it captures the options and feel of the war and the key limitations.
Yes, many similarities, but many differences as well.
CF and I used to regularly get at least one turn per day. Unfortunately, the arrival of the third air group to CV Cribtop (i.e. My third child) has slowed me down from that pace.
Barely capable of flight Ops, my friend! Actually, it's not so bad, but I am an OCD player that checks everything before hitting send, so the diaper routine is just enough to push me over the edge.
The Oz wolf pack onslaught continues. Today I-180 torpedoes DD Mahan and sinks her in the harbor in Broome. Looks like the Aussies there are hurting for supplies. I-173 puts two torps into CL Leander near Perth, finishing the damaged cruiser. The same sub then misses DD Case. The Skipper of I-155 puts in a request that he get an "assist" on the Astoria and Leander.
A Glen is shot down by CAP at Ndeni. IJAAF ASW planes claim another hit on Trusty. This time the sub is in the Miri port hex, which we will have to do something about.
5th Fleet
Onnekotan Jima makes forts 3.
SE Fleet
New base forces offload at Eniwetok, Ponape and Kusaie.
Burma
We sweep Schwebo, going after the remnants of the P-40 group hit at Meiktila a few days back, but there is no CAP.
China
One KMT Corps pushes down the road from Chengteh toward Changsha. We assume this is a probe to look in on our defenses in case the Tuyun/Kweiyang offensive stripped Changsha bare. It did not, but we shall see whether CF tries something on this front. He has a lot of LCUs at Chengteh and Chikiang, but they got roughed up in the original Changsha battles.
Still hunting the ill-fated SCTF near Perth, I-4 sinks DD Case today. I-173 misses DD Balch in the same hex. Cribtop Intel believes this task force consisted of ships damaged at Exmouth that were making for larger shipyards to finish repairs. Thus, add a CA, a CL and 2 DDs to the haul from that victory! The damaged condition of the DDs no doubt slowed them up enough for our subs to register these hits.
I-2 is DC'd by two RN DDs near Trivandrum, hit multiple times and forced to surface. She gets a penetrating hit on DD Thracian before being sunk in a hail of gunfire.
O-16 enters the Boela hex (note that CF is doing this a lot lately). The shallow waters allow a PB convoy escort to score a penetrating hit on the sub.
4th Fleet
Tarawa makes forts 5.
Vaitupu, which is empty, is reconned by the Allies for the first time today. We may send subs and a CLTF down here to try to catch CF if he goes for this base.
SE Fleet
P-38s and B-24s hit the port at Milne Bay today. CF probably is reacting to SigInt here as we just routed a supply ship to the base yesterday.
Burma
The Allies bomb the airfield at Cox's Bazaar today. I suspect the Bazaar will be closed for some time!
The UK 2nd Division arrives in hex 76, 107 to find an IJA brigade, the RTA Cav Division, and two arty units. This hex is important because it protects the right flank of Taung Gyi (1 hex to the West) and because the trail to Thailand's "back door" branches off from here. We are moving troops to reinforce Taung Gyi, which will in turn allow more troops to enter this hex. Another response is that 1/3rd of the RTA infantry division trapped in the Chinese mountains has been marching quietly on an empty Bhamo in the enemy rear and will arrive to take the base tomorrow. Strictly a harassment move, but fun.
Other
Cribtop Intel continues to monitor the status of CV Enterprise. She is still on the sunk list as we approach five months after the Battle of the Torres Islands. Is the Big E really sunk? Is that why she wasn't present at Exmouth? Who knows, but another month or so on the sunk list and we may start to believe.
This musing caused me to play around with the sunk ships lists to compare losses generally. Let me tell you, that was not a pretty sight from the Allied perspective. Horrific USN and RN losses for little in return by the IJN, particularly in the areas of CVs, BBs, CAs and assault shipping.
I-174 misses DD Norman near Chittagong. IJN ASW harasses Shad near Sasebo.
5th Fleet
Recon spots xAKs and more ships in harbor than usual at Dutch Harbor. Still on the lookout up here for an Allied move.
SE Fleet
B-24s bomb the tiny port at Horn Island. Madang makes airfield 3.
Burma
Odd move today. CF sent three DDs into the Cox's Bazar hex. They don't bombard and linger all day. 18 Nells from Port Blair twice try for the ships, losing one bomber to a lone Hurricane on LRCAP in the PM phase. Was this a CAP trap gone wrong or some kind of probe? Hard to tell.
Elements of an RTA Division enter the Bhamo hex today and will take the base tomorrow as it's empty.
We night bomb Schwebo airfield to go after the few remaining P-40s.
The Allies hit the CB airfield hard. Our Helens return the favor by bombing the UK 2nd Division for good hits near Taung Gyi.
Much to our happy surprise, the brave and battered AMC Aikoku Maru limps into port at Etorofu today. The ship took two Avenger torpedoes when the enemy sent a CVE into northern Japanese waters a while back.
SE Fleet
Shortlands makes forts 6. Milne Bay makes airfield 4.
Burma
The UK DDs at Cox's Bazar withdraw.
We occupy Bhamo and mess with the Allied LoC.
Karachi makes port 8.
Combined Fleet
KB arrives at Babel today. Shokaku, Zuikaku and several DDs will head for Japan for upgrades.
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