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Hello, been very busy tweeking West Front. Made many interesting discoveries (for me, I am sure many of you already knew the French had 17 divisions that had they been deployed correctly could have been a match for the 10 German Panzer Div (in a defense role at the very least)
Not all of them were completly ready on May 10th
4 DCR (division Cuiresser Reserve) Tank Div
3 DLM (division Light Mechenized) Light meaning fast not small they are more powerfull then the tank div (the DLM have 200 AFV) ALl were ready before 1939
5 DIm (div Infantry Motorized) all existing divisions no tanks (well 1 Bn light tanks/AC each)but motorized infantry div equal number of German motorized div.
5 'mixed' cav div half horse, half tank, planned use was to run through the Ardennes!!!


Lokioftheaesir do you have 'West Front'? you can download it free from WWW.theunderdogs.org
and the editor from WWW.webgrognards.com

If you have to dl a copy after you get it e-mail me and I will send you WF.exe file with doc checks removed (I fixed it so I just hit any answer and it is called correct letting me in (but I own the docs too I bought every SSI wargame that ever came out)) If I knew how to write Borland Turbo C++ (the source code)I'd really mess with this game. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
then study the format for air units and compile data for them. Start with the easy ones (LOL)
Belgian and Netherland airforces. plane type number and where deployed. Then we will have to rate them for dogfight/canon/load/range/durabilty
fortunatly I have all Gary Grigsby's games (from C-64 on) and can use his early war data and compare to help

for some strange reason I have been posting the updates in the 'art of war' thread 'the Franch explained' his spelling not mine

after looking at the .exe file with my trusty hex editor I found the AFV data for early war and some AC are already there (along with several NKVD divisions that really puzzle me. GG might have used his War in Russia code when he first started West Front and just missed removing them (also would account for the early tank variants-he might have intended for German Pz units to be in captured vehicles in June 41)
He must have been in a hurry since the 'change equippment' command is in 'Second Front' and 'War in Russia' but missing from WF (one of it's biggest bugs) I have to locate and disable the East Front routine (don't want div shattering there in 1940) Has any one ever found the 'West Front, North Africa' routine in WIR?)

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

Originally posted by Mogami:
I have to locate and disable the East Front routine (don't want div shattering there in 1940) Has any one ever found the 'West Front, North Africa' routine in WIR?)

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Of course, ever heard of WirHack? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Seriously, do you mean has anyone been able to disable the West Front and Italian Fronts in WiR? If so, then yes, this is exactly what WirHack does. Does WF use a similar "system" for the East Front, i.e. an East Front HQ that holds all the units fighting on the Eastern Front, and "events" that occur when the Front "shatters"? I've looked at it, but never played WF.

Originally posted by Mogami:

,,
Lokioftheaesir do you have 'West Front'? you can download it free from WWW.theunderdogs.org
and the editor from WWW.webgrognards.com

If you have to dl a copy after you get it e-mail me and I will send you WF.exe file with doc checks removed (I fixed it so I just hit any answer and it is called correct letting me in (but I own the docs too I bought every SSI wargame that ever came out)) If I knew how to write Borland Turbo C++ (the source code)I'd really mess with this game. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
then study the format for air units and compile data for them. Start with the easy ones (LOL)
Belgian and Netherland airforces. plane type number and where deployed. Then we will have to rate them for dogfight/canon/load/range/durabilty
fortunatly I have all Gary Grigsby's games (from C-64 on) and can use his early war data and compare to help
,,,,

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Mogami

Yes i've Westfront and i will D/L the editor now.
(underdorgs is a great site, i've d/loaded many 'classics' from there)

Will start research into French Plane number/type/location today and i will e-mail you tonight or tomorrow.

Loki

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Of course, ever heard of WirHack? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Seriously, do you mean has anyone been able to disable the West Front and Italian Fronts in WiR? If so, then yes, this is exactly what WirHack does. Does WF use a similar "system" for the East Front, i.e. an East Front HQ that holds all the units fighting on the Eastern Front, and "events" that occur when the Front "shatters"? I've looked at it, but never played WF.

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WF has 5 East Front HQ and O.K.W. units on East Front shatter a div or two per turn to eat replacment men and equipment. The div assigned to East Front HQ can not be moved (something I will of course have to deal with since most of these units were in France in 1940. I now go to locate wirhack thanks for the info on it.


Tally ho Lokioftheaesir

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

Originally posted by Mogami:


WF has 5 East Front HQ and O.K.W. units on East Front shatter a div or two per turn to eat replacment men and equipment. The div assigned to East Front HQ can not be moved (something I will of course have to deal with since most of these units were in France in 1940. I now go to locate wirhack thanks for the info on it.

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WirHack is here:

http://pages.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip

It won't help you with West Front though, I didn't mean to imply that it would. My mistake. It would take a separate program, WFHack, created by someone whose hacked the program to find and disable the code that handles the East Front HQs. The game sounds different enough from WIR that the same technique from WirHack doesn't apply to WF (there is more than one East Front HQ for one thing), but to me, disabling the shatter events sounds very doable. It can be done. There is an editor for WF I believe, so the editor can be used to move the necessary units out of the East Front HQs. All you need is a volunteer to hack into the game and disable the shatter event code.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



WirHack is here:

http://pages.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip

It won't help you with West Front though, I didn't mean to imply that it would. My mistake. It would take a separate program, WFHack, created by someone whose hacked the program to find and disable the code that handles the East Front HQs. The game sounds different enough from WIR that the same technique from WirHack doesn't apply to WF (there is more than one East Front HQ for one thing), but to me, disabling the shatter events sounds very doable. It can be done. There is an editor for WF I believe, so the editor can be used to move the necessary units out of the East Front HQs. All you need is a volunteer to hack into the game and disable the shatter event code.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

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Hi, Ed It will help locate it. I can use the WIRhack to look in the WIR code and see where it is and what it looks like. Then I can go into WF and look for similar set up. (the doc checks in both were the same and I disabled them both the same way) Personnally I think (from looking at both exe files with hex editor) that GG just loaded the exe file from WIR and began the design of WF from there. (explains the NKVD units in WF code) The East Front HQ are all tied to one HQ OKW this HQ is hard coded and must always have Hitler in command
Shattered units reappear here and are then reassigned to the East Front HQ. moving the divisions is not a problem. (once I get them out they don't seem to go back) All I need to do to the code is null out the value looked for to decide how many and which units shatter. But first I have to locate it. All unit data and map data is located in OB and .md files not exe file. Just unit type (where the max size is stored)(something else I would like to change since French Tank Div and others types do not hold as many inf as the 1944 allied divs do)

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

Does this mean WF could in future be made into something like WIR?

If so fantastic!

Hi, well WF is already just like WIR. The exceptions are the allies have no Armoured corps
(divisions can stand alone in WF must be in Corp/Army in WIR) You can not change a units equipment in WF (without using the editor during the game) Outside of these 2 differences the games play exactly the same. What is really strange to me is the map sizes. WF map is considerably larger then WIR map. I wonder if it is possible to enlarge ethier of them and if so to what size. (A map of Europe from Norway to North Africa the Urals to Gilbrater would be ok with me (gurgle gurgle)

The WIRhack unfortunaly is not a tool i can use. It writes over the WIR.exe file but does not allow you to use it to view what it is doing. I will stick with my hex editor and slowly figure out the file

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
Yes i've Westfront and i will D/L the editor now.
(underdorgs is a great site, i've d/loaded many 'classics' from there.

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Loki

Underdogs is great. At least i think so because EVERY TIME I try to d/l anything I get an error whitout using a d/l manager. So maybe you could mail me Westfront or upload it temporarily to your Yahoo storage (if there isn't any copyright problem <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> ). I do some programming too and would have a look at it. Maybe I could help you both.

Dave

Originally posted by Mogami:
The WIRhack unfortunaly is not a tool i can use. It writes over the WIR.exe file but does not allow you to use it to view what it is doing. I will stick with my hex editor and slowly figure out the file

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]

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Mogami,

In Ed's readme, he has excellent notes as to what memory locations he is changing and what to, by changeable item. This should point you to the locations to see what the code looks like. I have used his notes to look at the code, although I don't have his skill with this and have not ever touched any of that, although I did play with some other things for fun!

Originally posted by Mogami:
The WIRhack unfortunaly is not a tool i can use. It writes over the WIR.exe file but does not allow you to use it to view what it is doing.

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It wouldn't make a difference if it showed you what it was doing or not. Look in the readme.txt file, that shows the locations and values of bytes that are changed to create the hacks. These locations and the byte values have no value whatsoever for anything other than WIR.

I will stick with my hex editor and slowly figure out the file

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How do you think I figured out the hacks for WIR? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I used a debugger and hex editor just as you are.

Mogami, you 1940 project sounds great!

If you haven't run across the below site, i've had it in my files for a while. I just looked at it again, and it just gets better

http://France1940.free.fr/en_index.html

I also read French, and his notes (based on my reading his comments a year+ ago) in French are excellent. Of particular interest is how he notes the experience/readiness of the divisions down to regiments (and their commanders!)

So, on a relative scale in 1940 vis a vis the Germans, there were French units that would definitely have "WF" experience in the 70s and 80s. It was their top commaders who really sucked.

I'll be glad to help you on any WF project, using my limited skills

***

As for SPI's WIE, we have had a listserve with full archives on that game for almost a decade (I joined in 1996). We WIE posters are an open minded, generally low tech, low post, low rant group (no html posts, please). That's how i heard about Matrix games' list. Check us out at warineur@halisp.net

Hi, that be the site we're using for the French. There are several good OB sites out there. If you want you can start looking into arrival dates for German units transfering from Poland.

Hello All
Just to be pedantic....
In West Front, it was possible to make manuver groups that where based around a single division
and attached battalions, and there was no limit to how many you could make.
Also, West fron had an Invasion Pool, and a Air Assault Pool that ATR's would contribute to if not actually flying missions. So in west fron it was possible to do Amphibious invasions, Airborn Assaults, air transport air transportable formations, and naval ferry everything.
There was also a LOT more formation types than in WIR, and they had their special abillities impimented. eg the American 1st SSF brigade could Air Assault, be air transported, or used as Marines, or as light/mountain infantry.
None of this is impimented in WIR
(Just imagin what fun the Soviet player could have , if it was possible to paradrop the 5 Airborn divisions they get in WIR, 10 hexes behing the german front! Or to actually be able to send in the Back Sea Fleet Marines across the beaches and into Rumania!)

Originally posted by GET TRANSPT:
Mogami, you 1940 project sounds great!

If you haven't run across the below site, i've had it in my files for a while. I just looked at it again, and it just gets better

http://France1940.free.fr/en_index.html

I also read French, and his notes (based on my reading his comments a year+ ago) in French are excellent. Of particular interest is how he notes the experience/readiness of the divisions down to regiments (and their commanders!)

So, on a relative scale in 1940 vis a vis the Germans, there were French units that would definitely have "WF" experience in the 70s and 80s. It was their top commaders who really sucked.

I'll be glad to help you on any WF project, using my limited skills

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Get Transprt

Thats the site i'm using for the French/Allied air oob. (i am mildly litterate in french, which helps)
It is part of this site
http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/000_admin/000oob.htm

This is a great site for anyone who is interested.
Masses of information.

About the French higher commanders, i think Mogami 'might' have been generous giving Gamelin a 4 rating but i know little of his personal history. I only know how the French high command performed during May/June 1940.

Loki

"About the French higher commanders, i think Mogami 'might' have been generous giving Gamelin a 4 rating but i know little of his personal history. I only know how the French high command performed during May/June 1940."

He is now a 1 (and that because a negative number is not allowed) also he has a high PP cost to remove <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> (but one that I intend as France to pay the problem so far is who to replace him with----answer-----ANYONE else!!!!

Originally posted by davewolf:


Loki

Underdogs is great. At least i think so because EVERY TIME I try to d/l anything I get an error whitout using a d/l manager. So maybe you could mail me Westfront or upload it temporarily to your Yahoo storage (if there isn't any copyright problem <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> ). I do some programming too and would have a look at it. Maybe I could help you both.

Dave

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Dave

I'll zip it and send it to your eamil info@davescorner.de.

Loki

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
I'll zip it and send it to your eamil info@davescorner.de.

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Thanks a lot, Loki.

Dave

Gamelin was 68 when he was finally replaced by Weygand (who was 73!) after the Germans pocketed the best French Armies and the BEF.

Weygand, with a force half as big the Germans, hastily constructed the "Weygand line" along the Somme and Aisne rivers after June 1 ,and the French fought well. Their main problem was that they were outnumbered and outgunned 2-1 overall, and 4-1 or 5-1 in the breakthrough sectors. This disparity was due to the loss of forces either captured in the northern pocket or still in England after Dunkirk. Plus the huge equipment losses (almost none was salvaged, and the Germans used much of it to augment their stocks).For his quick thinking on defense in June 1940, I'd give Wegyand at 6 or 7 rating but keep Gamelin until at May 20.


Giraud commanded the 7th French army, a mobile force that was in the vanguard of the Dyle plan. He was eased out by De Gaulle when the latter consolidated the Free French. This aggressive General should get a 7 or 8. On the other hand, the historically hapless but not incompetent General Corap (commanding 9th Army) should rate about a 5. He knew what was up at Sedan, but Gamelin ignored it.

As for army group commanders (i'm doing this from memory using Churchill's The Second World War among other recollections) They should all 4's except Billote, who commanded Army Group 1 (GA1). I'd give him a 7. Billote was killed in a car accident on the clogged roads inside the northern pocket while he was trying to coordinate a breakout with the British near Arras. It did not help. Churchill liked this general's boldness .

De Gaulle was unusual. While he only led 4th DCR forming in reserve 5/10/40 he was astute enough to know about mobile/air tactics , having published The Army of the Future and other military and political works before the war. Moreover, his political skills developed well. Politically conservative, he was ignored/feared by politicos before the war, but he was militarily radical (the top brass did not like him). DeGaulle was actually named national "Undersecretary of State for War" in the last days of the campaign! I'd give him an 8 rating, but allow him to assume army group command only if Paris has fallen (and the government is in disarray). On May 10th, he was lucky to command a division, given his emnity with the conservative army establishment (The same goes for Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, another division commander who became an aggressive Army General post D-Day). Churchill did not like De Gaulle much because they were so similar... opposites attract, likes repel.

Finally, part-German king Leopold of Belgium (rate him a 5) was excoriated as "pro-German" by the British for his capitulation of the still considerable Belgian forces on May 28th. His reasoning was that he wanted to avoid WWI-style destruction (and Rotterdam-like terrorist bombing) of his country. Mogami, how will the apparently "premature" Belgian and Dutch capitulations be handled?

***
Leopold and my French grandfather met for dinner in the 1950's. The ex-king sent grandpa cards every Christmas until his death. When grandpa told me about their time together, he called Leopold "a very courteous German".

Originally posted by Possum:
Hello All
Just to be pedantic....
In West Front, it was possible to make manuver groups that where based around a single division
and attached battalions, and there was no limit to how many you could make.
Also, West fron had an Invasion Pool, and a Air Assault Pool that ATR's would contribute to if not actually flying missions. So in west fron it was possible to do Amphibious invasions, Airborn Assaults, air transport air transportable formations, and naval ferry everything.
There was also a LOT more formation types than in WIR, and they had their special abillities impimented. eg the American 1st SSF brigade could Air Assault, be air transported, or used as Marines, or as light/mountain infantry.
None of this is impimented in WIR
(Just imagin what fun the Soviet player could have , if it was possible to paradrop the 5 Airborn divisions they get in WIR, 10 hexes behing the german front! Or to actually be able to send in the Back Sea Fleet Marines across the beaches and into Rumania!)

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There is a limit to the number of 'counters'
there can be 134 divisions placed as divisions (or brigades as briagdes)the remaining have to go inside corps or armys.
There are 39 Axis corps and 27 Allied corps (off the top of my head the actual numbers may be slighty off except for the solo div number)


Allied armor has no corps. They must be used as divisions or brigades in order to plot 4 moves.
(you can have armor in an infantry corps but it only may plot 2 moves)

As for dutch and Belgian surrender I can find no mechanics to duplicate this, the German will just have to force those units to surrender.

Loki I lifted the data for the Curtis-H75 from Pac War (H-75A)