Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: spence

As far as the European Theater is concerned US forces didn't enter into ground combat until Nov 42. The B-17s got into it a bit earlier (8AF) but it is my understanding that most of the early escorts were provided by the RAF. Kinda wonder whether a significantly large proportion of production of the '42
P-40s ended up heading West (from USA) rather than East. It may be that the best way to figure out the P-40 thing is to investigate which squadrons/groups ended up in Europe in 1942 as opposed to trying to figure out how many (#wise) P-40s ended up in the Pacific...with active combat groups only in the Pacific during most of 42 replacement aircraft would most likely have headed that way to replace losses. Just a thought haven't looked into it much other than to find out that the P-35/36 had no role in the war in any theater after 12/41.

Quite a few P-40s ended up in North Africa. The groups destined for England usually started with P-40s or P-39s, but they all converted to a newer fighter before shipping out.

I have read that the USAAF in the Pacific lacked enough fighters to convert the P-39s to P-40s in 1942. However, there were plenty of P-40s for the groups that had them. Keeping P-40 squadrons at full strength was not a severe problem.

In the Nik Mod/CHS the replacement rate for P-40Es is definitely too low. I'm in October 1942 in my game against the AI. I have enough P-40Es to keep my frontline squadrons up to strength, but part of that is due to about half of my front line squadrons converting to P-38s. All my non-frontline units are flying P-40Bs. Even my fighter units in Hawaii are flying P-40Bs. It was June or July before I was able to convert the P-26 unit in Hawaii. That was only when I disbanded a bunch of fighter units into the pool at San Francisco.

I broke the back of the KB in July 42 with a Midway-like battle around Rabaul. (I got just as lucky as the USN did in the real battle too.) Since then, the Japanese have mostly been on the defensive and my fighters have not been under severe stress. If the Japanese were putting any serious pressure on any of my bases defended with P-40s, I would have a replacement problem.

Bill

I wouldn't dismiss Nik mod so quickly. There's very few plane replacement rates that are different than stock. (After reading this thread I wanted to check it to see if I was getting hosed in my Nik mod game. [;)])

I just checked the replacement rates for the main '42 fighters & FBs in both Nik mod & stock. (P-39Ds, P-40Bs & Es, P-38Gs, P-400s, Hurricanes, Spits, F4F3s & F4F4s.)

The rates are mostly the same as stock. The only exceptions are:

- P-38Gs: Down from 100/month to 25. This is the only change I'd question.
- Spitfires: None in Nik-mod until mid-43 and then 20/month. 50/month in stock starting June-42. Sucks for an AFB like me, but IRL Spits didn't arrive in CBI until this time.
- Hurricane IIc (cannon-armed): None in stock - 25/month in Nik-mod.
- F4F4 - 90/month in stock, and 45/month in Nik Mod.

So there's three 1942 fighters with less-than-stock replacement rates. On the other hand, there's one additional fighter-bomber that the allies don't have in stock. Plus, with the air combat much less bloody, the pools are depleted much slower.

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I wouldn't dismiss Nik mod so quickly. There's very few plane replacement rates that are different than stock. (After reading this thread I wanted to check it to see if I was getting hosed in my Nik mod game. [;)])

I just checked the replacement rates for the main '42 fighters & FBs in both Nik mod & stock. (P-39Ds, P-40Bs & Es, P-38Gs, P-400s, Hurricanes, Spits, F4F3s & F4F4s.)

The rates are mostly the same as stock. The only exceptions are:

- P-38Gs: Down from 100/month to 25. This is the only change I'd question.
- Spitfires: None in Nik-mod until mid-43 and then 20/month. 50/month in stock starting June-42. Sucks for an AFB like me, but IRL Spits didn't arrive in CBI until this time.
- Hurricane IIc (cannon-armed): None in stock - 25/month in Nik-mod.
- F4F4 - 90/month in stock, and 45/month in Nik Mod.

So there's three 1942 fighters with less-than-stock replacement rates. On the other hand, there's one additional fighter-bomber that the allies don't have in stock. Plus, with the air combat much less bloody, the pools are depleted much slower.

I've been playing the CHS, which I believe is based on the Nik mod. I loaded up both the stock and CHS equivalent to Scen 15. P-40E deliveries are the same for both.

The CHS adds two P-38 types, the P-38F and P-38L. The total deliveries of the F are 30 a month and the G ammounts to 36 a month. In stock the G deliveries are 100 a month. So you are getting 34 fewer early P-38s a month, which will put more pressure on your P-40s. In the real world, P-38s did not begin to arrive in any numbers in the war zone until the very end of 1942. When Yammamoto was shot down, the P-38s used were specially sent to Guadalcanal for that mission and then sent back to rear areas as soon as they accomplished their mission.

One big difference between the two are the deliveries of LB 30s and B-17Es. Both are dramatically reduced in CHS.

This is only tangentially related, but one beef I have is that the armament of many aircraft is wrong. The TBF in every version I've seen, including stock has 1 .303 firing forward. The TBF-1 had 1 .50 firing through the propeller and all versions after that (including the 1c) had one .50 in each wing. That one doesn't have much impact on the game since there doesn't seem to be a flak supression effect from strafing. If there was, the B-25 would be a much better anti-shipping weapon. Against anything smaller than a destroyer, the array of .50s firing forward on the B-25 tended to make the crew on the target hide rather than shoot back.

In CHS both Hurricanes are wrong. The IIb has 8 .303s when it actually had 4 20mm cannons. The IId/IV has 4 20mm. The IId had a pair of 40mm guns and was used in the anti-tank role. The IV had a universal wing and was a multipurpose fighter bomber. It sometimes carried 40mm, it also was sometimes a bomb carrier. The range on the IId/IV is also way too short.

I couldn't find anything definitive on the CBI use of Hurricanes. From what I found the first ones used were IIas with 12 .303s and they were replaced by IIbs and IIcs with the 4 20mms. A couple of squadrons flew IIds and IVs.

Bill

ORIGINAL: wdolson

In CHS both Hurricanes are wrong. The IIb has 8 .303s when it actually had 4 20mm cannons. The IId/IV has 4 20mm. The IId had a pair of 40mm guns and was used in the anti-tank role. The IV had a universal wing and was a multipurpose fighter bomber. It sometimes carried 40mm, it also was sometimes a bomb carrier. The range on the IId/IV is also way too short.

I couldn't find anything definitive on the CBI use of Hurricanes. From what I found the first ones used were IIas with 12 .303s and they were replaced by IIbs and IIcs with the 4 20mms. A couple of squadrons flew IIds and IVs.

Bill

That's because CHS Hurricane II is not the cannon armed variant..that one never served in CBI, unlike Hurri IV. I could be wrong, but I think only MG-armed Hurricane II-variants served in CBI.

IIRC Nik stated that he didn´t even touch P40 replacement rate. And when I see how hard it is to shoot Allied fighters down then there are definetely enough around.

Of course it´s off when the Japanese player ramps up his fighter production to 600 planes per month. That´s "stupid" in stock or in any mod, when playing PBEM. Well, the AI doesn´t complain....

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: wdolson

In CHS both Hurricanes are wrong. The IIb has 8 .303s when it actually had 4 20mm cannons. The IId/IV has 4 20mm. The IId had a pair of 40mm guns and was used in the anti-tank role. The IV had a universal wing and was a multipurpose fighter bomber. It sometimes carried 40mm, it also was sometimes a bomb carrier. The range on the IId/IV is also way too short.

I couldn't find anything definitive on the CBI use of Hurricanes. From what I found the first ones used were IIas with 12 .303s and they were replaced by IIbs and IIcs with the 4 20mms. A couple of squadrons flew IIds and IVs.

Bill

That's because CHS Hurricane II is not the cannon armed variant..that one never served in CBI, unlike Hurri IV. I could be wrong, but I think only MG-armed Hurricane II-variants served in CBI.

CHS is wrong in this regard. There were both Hurricane Mk.IIb (12x .303cal MG) and Mk.IIc (4x 20mm Cannon) employed in the CBI (and later the Mk.IId/IV as a single-purpose ground-attack plane). Only the Mk.IIa (with 8x .303cal MG) was not found in the CBI [until April 1941 all three versions had been named Mk.IIa regardless of their actual gun configuration; the letter described the planes' wing-configuration, not the gun-configuration].

I stand corrected then. Maybe Andrew Brown can renew the interest to CHS and make corrections to 2.09 in future...[8D]

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

The hurricane isnt the problem really. its the american planes or rather a lack of them. did the americans really have so few P40's in 1942 ? i guess so as much more intelligent people than me made the mods and they all have reduced allied replacements imo.

Unfortunately its made lop sided by japans ability to get all its future R&D factories cranking out early/mid war planes as R$D doenst matter much till 6 months before intorduction. Maybe really penalise japanses R&D if the factories are used for something else. Just throwing ideas around really and not trying to be an allied fanboy[;)].

Anyway come late 43 the allies will have enough to hurt japan i hope [;)]. No large allied hammer in the first 2 years is probably a good thing the more i ponder it. and once the allies get hellcats and new a/c the huge number of older japanese planes won;t matter much as they all become targets [:D]

Actually the more i think about what i pondered earlier about allied production in line with japan doesn't work as it penalises japan for good production management , not a good thing. And Nikmod does prevent the commonwealth from turning china into an air theatre for the allies too early. and i do feel like im in a good defensive posture which is ok in mid 42. just have to be careful and fight over friendly territory whereever possible.

ok im rambling [:'(]

Try 8.0. Fighter production was scrubbed a bit for Allies. (more fighters for 1943 Allies including later version P-40's) Japanese online aircraft production was tweaked. 8.0 sees a drastic reduction in RD factories. 8.0b is less extreme but still consolidates alot of the mini-factories and eliminates the free Oscar to Tony factory upgrade. Judging by the decible level of the screams, i'd say its having the intended effect.

[:D]

Thinks Nik , unfortunately we started on version 5.0 iirc and the database is unchangeable once started i believe. So your saying that the japanese cannot abuse fighter production too much in ver 8.0 ? thats a marvelous idea. The only thing that worries me a bit is late war japanese fighter production would be hit badly ( that 300 plane Frank factory springs to mind ). Is that potentially a problem ?

I think a general house rule of leave R&D factories alone untill the planes are available, then if you want to change em over go crazy [;)]. I was thoroughly enjoying my nikmod game till events curtailed it a lot [:(].

So your saying that the japanese cannot abuse fighter production too much in ver 8.0 ?

Options are certainly more limited, and changes come with greater costs, even in 8.0b (i've had few takers so far with 8.0)

"and changes come with greater costs"

Sounds like you've gone Zen bhuddist [;)]

Ah Gwasshopper

come closer so that you may experience the bliss that is Tai Quan Leep......

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

The hurricane isnt the problem really. its the american planes or rather a lack of them. did the americans really have so few P40's in 1942 ? i guess so as much more intelligent people than me made the mods and they all have reduced allied replacements imo.

Unfortunately its made lop sided by japans ability to get all its future R&D factories cranking out early/mid war planes as R$D doenst matter much till 6 months before intorduction. Maybe really penalise japanses R&D if the factories are used for something else. Just throwing ideas around really and not trying to be an allied fanboy[;)].

Anyway come late 43 the allies will have enough to hurt japan i hope [;)]. No large allied hammer in the first 2 years is probably a good thing the more i ponder it. and once the allies get hellcats and new a/c the huge number of older japanese planes won;t matter much as they all become targets [:D]

Actually the more i think about what i pondered earlier about allied production in line with japan doesn't work as it penalises japan for good production management , not a good thing. And Nikmod does prevent the commonwealth from turning china into an air theatre for the allies too early. and i do feel like im in a good defensive posture which is ok in mid 42. just have to be careful and fight over friendly territory whereever possible.

ok im rambling [:'(]

Try 8.0. Fighter production was scrubbed a bit for Allies. (more fighters for 1943 Allies including later version P-40's) Japanese online aircraft production was tweaked. 8.0 sees a drastic reduction in RD factories. 8.0b is less extreme but still consolidates alot of the mini-factories and eliminates the free Oscar to Tony factory upgrade. Judging by the decible level of the screams, i'd say its having the intended effect.

[:D]

When did Oscar upgrade to Tony? I thought it was Nate, Oscar I, Oscar II, Frank???

I'm not sure I'm a good enough player to play without Spit's and almost without P-38s.
They are my main asset in the war (as Allies), together with 4Es.

Take those away and there goes air superiority till you start getting a decent amount of Corsair's.
Assuming you get to play till late '43 and '44 it may not be a problem. But so far I've always lost Jap players much earlier, which means getting an even worse beating till the end of '42 for the usual opponent disappearance once the Allies eventually start rising.
'bbbf' being the great awesome exception [&o] [:)]

With an historical Japanese production I'd have no problem. But every Jap player I faced in PBEM (and I played many!) never ever ran ut of fighters (or planes in general), not even in '43. I've been shooting down over a thousand Zero's and Betty's and they just keep coming. Not to mention Tony's.
While, even with stock production, I keep running out at least till mid '42.
If it has to be realistic rather than enjoyable it should at least be for both sides.

Anyway I guess I'll have to try iy out [;)]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

When did Oscar upgrade to Tony? I thought it was Nate, Oscar I, Oscar II, Frank???

Tony's or Frank's.......Its Monday and i'm Java Free on a monday. Either plane, no free factory conversion. [>:]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: castor troy

When did Oscar upgrade to Tony? I thought it was Nate, Oscar I, Oscar II, Frank???

Tony's or Frank's.......Its Monday and i'm Java Free on a monday. Either plane, no free factory conversion. [>:]

Are you speaking about only the Oscar or ALL Jap planes?? [X(] If there´s no auto upgrade at all, this would mean 1.000.000+ [X(][X(] supply points spent for upgrading factories.

no....not every plane, but the biggies, like Ki-43 to Ki-84 which meant a free conversion of those factories to the newer plane. Expanding is still possible, but you have to pay for it.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

no....not every plane, but the biggies, like Ki-43 to Ki-84 which meant a free conversion of those factories to the newer plane. Expanding is still possible, but you have to pay for it.

Can you tell me which other ac don´t upgrade in your latest version. Would be good to know, that I can convert them not waiting for months to have them upgrade and then again months to have them running after converting them manually.

Thanks

mainly just the signifigant 2nd generation fighters. So as mentioned, no free factory conversion of Ki-43 or Ki-61 factories to Ki-84.

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I stand corrected then. Maybe Andrew Brown can renew the interest to CHS and make corrections to 2.09 in future...[8D]

It is not interest I lack, it is time. There are many further improvements that could be made to CHS. I am still hoping that others will be interested in helping with further updates...

Andrew