Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Honda
...
Oh, and I did have a KB Zero shot down by a Wirraway just a few days ago... Made me laugh with all my heart[:D]

What's so funny about that? If your Zero flew into a Wirraway's field of fire, it's as dead a goose as any other airplane.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Got a couple of more turns in and after watching combat replays for 2 hours I get more and more !"()$*'Ä...

What's the date in your game anyway? I bet it isn't 1941 or 1942.

It sounds to me like you are playing in 1943 or later - and you want the war to be fair.... It wasn't "fair" by that time.
Deal With It.

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Honda
...
Oh, and I did have a KB Zero shot down by a Wirraway just a few days ago... Made me laugh with all my heart[:D]

What's so funny about that? If your Zero flew into a Wirraway's field of fire, it's as dead a goose as any other airplane.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Got a couple of more turns in and after watching combat replays for 2 hours I get more and more !"()$*'Ä...

What's the date in your game anyway? I bet it isn't 1941 or 1942.

It sounds to me like you are playing in 1943 or later - and you want the war to be fair.... It wasn't "fair" by that time.
Deal With It.

I´m still in 42 so your guess was wrong. And where did you read in my posts that I want it to be fair?? I just don´t want sh*t happen. Watching Hurricanes bouncing on Tojos for 200 times on and on and on? With inferior planes and inferior pilots. At a height they can´t even get?? [8|] Do you even read what I wrote?

There´s no law that Allies ALL the time get the bounce. Why should they??? Because they won the war? [8|]

And to come back to your comment about the year, even in August 1945 they shouldn´t always get the bounce, there´s no reason why they should get it ALL the time.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Honda
...
Oh, and I did have a KB Zero shot down by a Wirraway just a few days ago... Made me laugh with all my heart[:D]

What's so funny about that? If your Zero flew into a Wirraway's field of fire, it's as dead a goose as any other airplane.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Got a couple of more turns in and after watching combat replays for 2 hours I get more and more !"()$*'Ä...

What's the date in your game anyway? I bet it isn't 1941 or 1942.

It sounds to me like you are playing in 1943 or later - and you want the war to be fair.... It wasn't "fair" by that time.
Deal With It.

I´m still in 42 so your guess was wrong. And where did you read in my posts that I want it to be fair?? I just don´t want sh*t happen. Watching Hurricanes bouncing on Tojos for 200 times on and on and on? With inferior planes and inferior pilots. At a height they can´t even get?? [8|] Do you even read what I wrote?

There´s no law that Allies ALL the time get the bounce. Why should they??? Because they won the war? [8|]

And to come back to your comment about the year, even in August 1945 they shouldn´t always get the bounce, there´s no reason why they should get it ALL the time.

Then I have an answer for you - QUIT PLAYING THE GAME AND DO SOMETHING ELSE

Your whinning gets old[>:]

I know that radar plays a major role. I have no problem being bounced repeatedly on offensve missions 'cause I'm entering enemy territory which is well covered with radar. So no problem with bomnce there. The problem is I really see the first contact of two squadrons being a bounce in allied favour even when allies are on offensive missions. No radar there...Looks like a freebee to me, but it's not a scientific observation, it's a feeling.
And that Wirraway taking down Zero...it made laugh, but in a warm kind of way. He!!, I'll even give the parents of the KB Zero pilot that was shot down by that Wirrayway a letter saying he died in combat. I mean, Wirraway is a trainer after all, no? That means my Zeros were training...[:D]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I have seen fighter sweeps with Zeros bounce the snot out of Allied fighters.

It may be an issue of fighter escort getting bounced.

Nothing related to escort. I said I sent them on a sweep - exactly, I sent them on a sweep at a height 3000 feet above the max height of the defending fighters (if they were set to max height - which I doubt).

Just read Section 7.2.2.10 of the rules ("Impact of Altitude Selection"):

"When fighters attack other fighters, the fighters deemed to have initiative will change their altitude to that of the fighters they are attacking"

and

"Other than impacting P-39 and P-400 performance, altitude does not impact air to air combat with one exception: aircraft that are reinforcing CAP due to radar contact of the incoming strike may not be able to climb fast enough to engage the incoming bombers."

"When fighters attack other fighters, the fighters deemed to have initiative will change their altitude to that of the fighters they are attacking"

So, according to the manual, fighters with initiative can magically increase their ceiling to that of the enemy even though it is beyond the capability of the aircraft.

"Other than impacting P-39 and P-400 performance, altitude does not impact air to air combat with one exception: aircraft that are reinforcing CAP due to radar contact of the incoming strike may not be able to climb fast enough to engage the incoming bombers."

But they will climb fast enough to engage a fighter sweep that is above their altitude capability. Interesting. They must have JATO packs installed.

Chez

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes



What's so funny about that? If your Zero flew into a Wirraway's field of fire, it's as dead a goose as any other airplane.


What's the date in your game anyway? I bet it isn't 1941 or 1942.

It sounds to me like you are playing in 1943 or later - and you want the war to be fair.... It wasn't "fair" by that time.
Deal With It.

I´m still in 42 so your guess was wrong. And where did you read in my posts that I want it to be fair?? I just don´t want sh*t happen. Watching Hurricanes bouncing on Tojos for 200 times on and on and on? With inferior planes and inferior pilots. At a height they can´t even get?? [8|] Do you even read what I wrote?

There´s no law that Allies ALL the time get the bounce. Why should they??? Because they won the war? [8|]

And to come back to your comment about the year, even in August 1945 they shouldn´t always get the bounce, there´s no reason why they should get it ALL the time.

Then I have an answer for you - QUIT PLAYING THE GAME AND DO SOMETHING ELSE

Your whinning gets old[>:]

now that´s a good answer! First thing that comes to mind is SU! The only thing you do is giving nonsense answers since the first day you entered the forum. Always, repeat, always giving some nonsense fanboy answer is not just stubborn but dumb also. Go on and play the AI...

ORIGINAL: castor troy
And to come back to your comment about the year, even in August 1945 they shouldn´t always get the bounce, there´s no reason why they should get it ALL the time.

I can sympathize with your frustrations, troy..., though I generally feel it's the Allies not getting the "bounce" in 1942 in my games (probably because I play them, I notice it more). But because others are not getting those results you report you need to go back to "square one" and see if you can tell what you might be doing differently. Not doubting your word..., but something must be "different" if you are the only one getting this result on a consistant basis.

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

"When fighters attack other fighters, the fighters deemed to have initiative will change their altitude to that of the fighters they are attacking"

So, according to the manual, fighters with initiative can magically increase their ceiling to that of the enemy even though it is beyond the capability of the aircraft.

"Other than impacting P-39 and P-400 performance, altitude does not impact air to air combat with one exception: aircraft that are reinforcing CAP due to radar contact of the incoming strike may not be able to climb fast enough to engage the incoming bombers."

But they will climb fast enough to engage a fighter sweep that is above their altitude capability. Interesting. They must have JATO packs installed.

Chez

So if the manual is right, exceptionally, then why do we have an altitude setting at all. The Allied gets the bounce, even a hundred times in one battle if enough planes are available and the fact that they aren´t effected by flying 10.000 or 15.000 feet below the attackers doesn´t effect fighter vs fighter at all.

Now then there is something wrong --> the design.[8|]

Note to all:

Let's keep it civil please. Yes, I know. The pot calling the kettle black but I really am trying to be a kinder, gentler soul.[:D][:D]

Chez

ORIGINAL: castor troy


now that´s a good answer! First thing that comes to mind is SU! The only thing you do is giving nonsense answers since the first day you entered the forum. Always, repeat, always giving some nonsense fanboy answer is not just stubborn but dumb also. Go on and play the AI...

You post like a 20 year old throwing a tantrum, full of frustration.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So if the manual is right, exceptionally, then why do we have an altitude setting at all.

To keep you from sending your bombers too low... get it? It dosen't have to represent deatailed air combat - read the manual.

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: castor troy
And to come back to your comment about the year, even in August 1945 they shouldn´t always get the bounce, there´s no reason why they should get it ALL the time.

I can sympathize with your frustrations, troy..., though I generally feel it's the Allies not getting the "bounce" in 1942 in my games (probably because I play them, I notice it more). But because others are not getting those results you report you need to go back to "square one" and see if you can tell what you might be doing differently. Not doubting your word..., but something must be "different" if you are the only one getting this result on a consistant basis.

Wonder what I do different. I´m sending in my Tojos (3 sentais) to Dacca, at max height (35.000). Result: my Tojos get bounced on and on.

Next try: Tojos at 20k, 25k and 30k and one daitai of Zeroes at 32k. Result: allied sqadrons climbing and bouncing on and on and on.... Every incoming sentai and daitai was bounced, to be more precise, bounced on and on and on. For the whole fight!

This goes on no matter what settings I have. And to repeat, better planes on my side, far better pilots and not 43 or 44 or 45...

And that´s my problem! I don´t have a problem that "most" times the Allied defender get´s the bounce at the beginning (radar) but after having engaged and engaged,... there must be an end of the oh so Allied (seems to me even when playing the Allied side) advantage of bounce. And to repeat something I said often enough but the mighte AFBs aren´t recognizing: I´ve got two PBEMs as Allied running too, so there´s no sense in calling me a FB of what side ever... Oh well, I got three going as Japanese, so..

I don´t know if it´s related to Nik mod 8.0b that I´m playing but seeing it just on and on and on... isn´t right I think.

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy


now that´s a good answer! First thing that comes to mind is SU! The only thing you do is giving nonsense answers since the first day you entered the forum. Always, repeat, always giving some nonsense fanboy answer is not just stubborn but dumb also. Go on and play the AI...

You post like a 20 year old throwing a tantrum, full of frustration.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So if the manual is right, exceptionally, then why do we have an altitude setting at all.

To keep you from sending your bombers too low... get it? It dosen't have to represent deatailed air combat - read the manual.

yes, sure! You throw a oh so grown up answer at me "Then I have an answer for you - QUIT PLAYING THE GAME AND DO SOMETHING ELSE

Your whinning gets old" and are getting angry about my answer.

As said before, you never came up with a answer that´s not some oh so US fanboy like. If someone sais this Allied xy wasn´t that good, your answer: The US won the war. xk can´t fly so high, your answer: the US won the war. And so on....

Tell you like you are posting: like someone that is 2 years old and not yet able to understand things or like someone who´s alrady 90 suffering from Alzheimer disease.

So calm down, read what I wrote and forget your all time US or Allied is always better than everyone and everything else. You must be wondering why Pearl Harbour even could happen or why it took a couple of years to defeat the Axis, don´t you...

Stubborn, ignoring guy.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

..forget your all time US or Allied is always better than everyone and everything else. You must be wondering why Pearl Harbour even could happen or why it took a couple of years to defeat the Axis, don´t you...

[8|]

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

ORIGINAL: timtom

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

it is supposed to be an initial advantage in air combat - you get to go first

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: timtom

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

it is supposed to be an initial advantage in air combat - you get to go first

Hey, seems to me that Japan goes first in just about every aspect of the game resolution...nice to see a little bit of randomness in the process once in a blue moon.

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

Supposedly it denotes achieving tactical surprise. IRL WWII, that normally meant getting a height advantage and diving upon the enemy before he could react.

The point of this thread is how can a bouncer "bounce" the bouncee if it can't reach the bouncee's altitude. The game gives a huge advantage to the side that achieves "the bounce" but it seems that "bouncing" in the game does not take altitude into consideration, it just applies a surprise factor.

Chez

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: timtom

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

it is supposed to be an initial advantage in air combat - you get to go first

Quickly before the mods shut this one down...

Well, one would automatically presume so, but is it actually the case or is it just more WitP arcana? I'm not convinced that the A2A messages aren't just a smokescreen to convey the idea that the model is more complex than actually is the case.

Chris, you're getting bounced 24/7 - is this reflected in your losses? I know you'd need access to the code to really answer this one, but hey

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The point of this thread is how can a bouncer "bounce" the bouncee if it can't reach the bouncee's altitude. The game gives a huge advantage to the side that achieves "the bounce" but it seems that "bouncing" in the game does not take altitude into consideration, it just applies a surprise factor.

Chez

I thought the point of this thread was "Looking for trouble with AFB[:@]"

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.