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Also I do realize that in real life this would have been basically impossible.

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Also Nik and Niceguy, as you can see from my above posts I have given T plenty of opportunity to object. If he does so I will not do it. This is a friendly game, after all.

Also I think he might be looking at it as an opportunity to sink more transports (which it may well be)[:)][:D]

Anything goes as long as both players agree. [:)]

Well my big US subs have done nothing but shoot dud torpedoes for the last 4 months...the S boats on the other hand....

If you've got the PP's, then spend them. I'm just surprised that you have any, considering all missed-RN-withdrawal penalties you've had to pay...

I had 2 left on March 31[:)]

I don't give back RN ships (I get them sunk instead)[:D]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Big B

Furthermore, evacuating Dutch units out of the DEI to fight another day makes good military sense - and there is very much an historical WWII precedent for this: at Dunkirk, of the 330,000+ troops evacuated to England - no fewer than 140,000 of those were French and Belgian...even though some British troops were left behind (about 40,000).

So I would say (from my point of view) there is nothing gamey about saving what you can to fight another day...under most circumstances.

B

I think you need to re-read my post Brian [:)]

I also never evac fragments so that they can respawn into the full parent once the orig is destroyed, nor do i evac DUTCH units to defend non-Dutch posesssions well before they are threatened by a Japanese advance. Too ahistorical to me

The game tactic i'm referring too is evacing fragments or even whole Dutch units before a point of a situation becoming untendable, such as at Dunkirk, happens. ENG (Base) unit's are very popular for this....I can't fathom Dutch unit's voluntarily abandoning their territory before being threatened to go defend some other country's possessions.

Also the evacuation of small numbers of men from trapped units was primarily to save lives. Those saved men could be used to fill/flesh out other units and contribute to the war effort, but in the game the purpose is not to save lives, it's to save an LCU slot and use the entirty of the unit again. I have always found that gamey though at least now there's an exp penalty for doing so.

Like Mogami though, the above are examples of personal house rules that I only enforce on myself. I do not require this of my opponent. An example of a house rule i require to play a PBEM is no sub invasions for either side.

Yes I did spot the important text ... I guess that's just a judgement call as to when a player thinks it's advisable.[8D]

ORIGINAL: Big B


Yes I did spot the important text ... I guess that's just a judgement call as to when a player thinks it's advisable.[8D]

I suppose....me, If i'm the dutch commander and I'm holding Java and i'm told to evac my sovereign territory before even one Japanese soldier touches down in my soil, and go defend say, "Brisbane" I'd proably go.....WTF? esp if that commander is not Dutch.

Dunkirk, the example you used was pretty clear at which point it was "advisable".....i.e. they were cut off and surrounded by the Germans in an untendable situation with their backs to the sea. The BEF obviously had only one choice....(go back to England) and they tried to save as many Allied troops as possible. Thats a far different situation from telling Dutch commander Ja to prepare to ship out to Midway (A US possession far away and removed from any Dutch concern) for a future defense months down the road.

I did not say I was going to do it right now.[:)]

Nik, I had about 200 PP on March 29. On April 1, the Admiralty wants a BB and 2 DD back. They are not going to get them. I needed to use the PP before 1 April[:)]

I had just reached a decision point.[:)]

I never give back British ships either. I'm greedy. [:D] the PP penalty should probably be more severe i've always felt.

Of course the efectiveness of the HQ is cut by being assigned to.... elsewhere.[:)]

You GAMER you.

[:'(]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Big B


Yes I did spot the important text ... I guess that's just a judgement call as to when a player thinks it's advisable.[8D]

I suppose....me, If i'm the dutch commander and I'm holding Java and i'm told to evac my sovereign territory before even one Japanese soldier touches down in my soil, and go defend say, "Brisbane" I'd proably go.....WTF? esp if that commander is not Dutch.

Dunkirk, the example you used was pretty clear at which point it was "advisable".....i.e. they were cut off and surrounded by the Germans in an untendable situation with their backs to the sea. The BEF obviously had only one choice....(go back to England) and they tried to save as many Allied troops as possible. Thats a far different situation from telling Dutch commander Ja to prepare to ship out to Midway (A US possession far away and removed from any Dutch concern) for a future defense months down the road.

The thing is, if you were defending the DEI, and found/Knew the Japanese were in overwhelming strength - military logic would dictate that you destroy everything of value to the enemy, then fall back with what ever friendly forces are available, and make a real stand where you CAN hold to stop the Japanese - figuring all the while that 'first we stop them - then when we are strong enough we'll take these islands back for good'.
It would make no sense to wait until withdrawal is risky - so long as you denied the Japanese every resource you can.

Yes, MILITARY logic... Political/Nationalistic logic? Not necessarily...

Big B, it is a fine line to decide when to retreat. I know you know this. You put up a better defense in the Phillipines than I did. Terminus is advancing on Palembang right now. When the air base falls evacs are going to get tricky. Also, with him having Betties in Kuching, there is already some risk.

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Of course the efectiveness of the HQ is cut by being assigned to.... elsewhere.[:)]

Duh... Me not know at all where ABDA go... Duh... Better stomp on it before it go away in boat...[:D]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yes, MILITARY logic... Political/Nationalistic logic? Not necessarily...

Agreed but luckily this is a game and I am not really responsible for real lives. It would be hard very hard

ORIGINAL: Big B


The thing is, if you were defending the DEI, and found/Knew the Japanese were in overwhelming strength - military logic would dictate that you destroy everything of value to the enemy, then fall back with what ever friendly forces are available, and make a real stand where you CAN hold to stop the Japanese - figuring all the while that 'first we stop them - then when we are strong enough we'll take these islands back for good'.
It would make no sense to wait until withdrawal is risky - so long as you denied the Japanese every resource you can.

If your King, and the British tell you that the Hawaian islands are untendable due to Japanese strength, but they have not yet invaded, and that all forces or part of them should be evacuated and redeployed to a more tendable line in say.....India.....would he or any US commander have agreed?

I doubt any Dutch commander would ever give up major dutch possessions before any enemy has landed to defend someone else's territory. Another way to put it.....You are Allies but are being ordered to serve the purposes of another Ally with the only carrot being that your told its for the greater good. (I"m sure King would go for that.....not)

Thats why i'd never evac Dutch units prematurely to go defend British posessions or American etc. I had a game where that happened to me. Didn't feel very historical. I hadn't even invaded any dutch posessions yet, but on invading Burma i suddenly one of the bases there occupied by several Dutch Base forces....interesting. Perfectly legal in the game. But i don't find it very historical.

You

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Of course the efectiveness of the HQ is cut by being assigned to.... elsewhere.[:)]

Duh... Me not know at all where ABDA go... Duh... Better stomp on it before it go away in boat...[:D]

You mean you know it's being assigned to the North Pacific[:D]

Okay who talked, I want to know....[:D]

I did cheat a little here Nik. I took out a couple of Dutch units in outlying areas and moved them north while transports could still make it. I have also used PP to move Dutch units from 1 Dutch Island to another Dutch Island. That hurts.

Nothing wrong with moving dutch units from one dutch location to another.....any nation can and did do that. The example i referenced was finding Dutch units in BURMA long before i invaded the major dutch islands.....and of course the units were there to provide forts and air support for British planes in Burma. In this case it wasn't fragments but whole units lifted. PP's are a good way to curb things.....they prevent for example quite nicely, a Japan player from moving the entirty of the Kwangtung army to the Pacific without political/military consequence or big INF units from West Coast or Oz etc, but one weak point is that important units like base forces cost next to nothing, and of course fragment evac'ing is a another tactic that can be employed. All legal in the game of course. If one wants to do it fine.....but i won't.