Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mldtchdog

Historically the USA, at the start of the war, had developed a process for synthetic oil that was both cheeper and of higher octane than anything the Germans could produce.

Is that so? Was it utilised on a large scale basis?

ORIGINAL: Jimm

ORIGINAL: mldtchdog

Historically the USA, at the start of the war, had developed a process for synthetic oil that was both cheeper and of higher octane than anything the Germans could produce.

Is that so? Was it utilised on a large scale basis?

The best the Germans could produce was about 80 octane. The average automobile ran on about 40 octane in the 40's. The USA could produce 100 octane which fed the airforce.
There are two basic types of processes for synthesizing oil from coal and no I can't remember the names for them but the second and more complex type produced the higher octane. As to US volume I really don't know. The paper I read was about US foreign oil dependency in the 80's and used WWII Germany as a case study.

See: Synthetic fuel

Germany: Synthetic crude the Fischer-Tropsch process, which was used on a large scale in during World War II. Synthetic crude may be created using a Fischer-Tropsch process to synthesize liquid hydrocarbons from synthesis gas (a mixture of carbon monoxide and methane).


The Bergius Process (discovered in 1921) is a method of getting liquid hydrocarbons for use as synthetic fuel from lignite by hydrogenation.

USA: Tetra-ethyl lead is still used as an additive in the aviation fuel known as avgas.

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

If the US produced 50% of worlds oil why do they only get access to a possible 22 out 55 Oil Resources in WiFE? Maybe they should start off with some synth plants?

John Ellis in his book Brute Force has production figures for the allies and axis 39-45 for oil (and other raw materials) His figures show that the USA produced on average from (42-45) about 200 million metric tons. The German yearly average (39-44) was probably nearer 7 million metric tons. Thats almost 30:1?

I guess Harry must have factored out non war production when he set up Oil Resources or something.

Sorry none of the above has anything to do with MWiFE. I just get the feeling that the US have been robbed of oil resources.

The Allies in general (and especially the US in particular) have lowered production in WiF; the Axis are given a boost (especially in Italy's case). It's a bit of a game balance thing, since the designers didn't want to force the players to make the same mistakes the real-war generals and politicians did.

ORIGINAL: Incy

I never build synth for any power. I prefer instead to capture oil with shiny military units.
Building oil is planning for defeat, IMHO

If playing with oil, Japan needs their synth oil and should build it as early as possible by saving build points. This may be planning for defeat in the war, but for victory in the game.

The best the Germans could produce was about 80 octane. The average automobile ran on about 40 octane in the 40's. The USA could produce 100 octane which fed the airforce.
There are two basic types of processes for synthesizing oil from coal and no I can't remember the names for them but the second and more complex type produced the higher octane. As to US volume I really don't know. The paper I read was about US foreign oil dependency in the 80's and used WWII Germany as a case study.

I seem to remember that some 109 models had 100 octane fuel, and that this was written in a triangle near the opening in the tank where you filled it.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The best the Germans could produce was about 80 octane. The average automobile ran on about 40 octane in the 40's. The USA could produce 100 octane which fed the airforce.
There are two basic types of processes for synthesizing oil from coal and no I can't remember the names for them but the second and more complex type produced the higher octane. As to US volume I really don't know. The paper I read was about US foreign oil dependency in the 80's and used WWII Germany as a case study.

I seem to remember that some 109 models had 100 octane fuel, and that this was written in a triangle near the opening in the tank where you filled it.

I should clarify that the 80 vs 100 octane was at the very start of the war. Now that I'm thinking about it very possible that this was case prior to the war (1937?) as the analysis was about Germany's strategic planning for oil needs.

The link below has some very good info on this subject. It is quite clear that Germany had to invest heavily in syn-fuels. Without the added production, the war could not have been prosecuted at all, except defense, by the summer of '41. It was a huge expence for Germany, but they had no choice. Expansion was continued until available steel resouces had to be conserved for plant repair.

As for the U.S. syn-fuel industry; it was not set at a high priority for the reasons posted above by others. It would have been a gross waste of steel and labor that was really needed in critical war industries.

The attached article is the best I have been able to find on Germany's fuel industry-excellent read.




http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... becker.htm

06 Maestro

That article was very informative on German oil requirements. A worthy read.[:)]

I am unable, despite various efforts, to ascertain if the Italians did any such dabbling into syth oil. If anyone has any info one way or the other on this subject I'd be grateful for your input.

ORIGINAL: Jimm

I am unable, despite various efforts, to ascertain if the Italians did any such dabbling into syth oil. If anyone has any info one way or the other on this subject I'd be grateful for your input.

Well, I can't ascertain neither, all I can say is that I played Italy a lot, and I never built one, let alone the special one they have in Libya, even when I was successful. The Italians should better rely on German lent oil.

That's a good question about Italy.  Although I have never read anything regarding that, I would say it was unlikely, for two reasons.  The first is that Italy's steel production was quite small; IIRC, about 10% of Germany's.  The second reason is that the best choice an alternate fuel source would be coal; Italy's native coal supply is low both in quantity and quality.  I have not seen Italy's basic production figures for many years, but I remeber being surprised at low it was in nearly every category.  The only notable exception was in electricity production.  It really makes you wonder just what Mussolini was thinking during any of his belligerent actions; he was bluffing, or he was crazy.  Italy may have had some small synfuel operations, but it would have been small compared to Germay's.  It also would have been dependent on imported coal.
 
Italy had been making a significant effort to find natural gas in the Po Valley area since the 1920's.  Mussolini was convinced it was there-he was right about that.  Too bad for facist Italy that they did not find it until 1943, and then in 1944 they hit a mega field of gas.  Had they found that resorce 10-15 years earlier, it may well have changed history to a great degree.  As it was, the game was as good over when this great resorce was finally found.

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

That's a good question about Italy. Although I have never read anything regarding that, I would say it was unlikely, for two reasons. The first is that Italy's steel production was quite small; IIRC, about 10% of Germany's. The second reason is that the best choice an alternate fuel source would be coal; Italy's native coal supply is low both in quantity and quality. I have not seen Italy's basic production figures for many years, but I remeber being surprised at low it was in nearly every category. The only notable exception was in electricity production. It really makes you wonder just what Mussolini was thinking during any of his belligerent actions; he was bluffing, or he was crazy. Italy may have had some small synfuel operations, but it would have been small compared to Germay's. It also would have been dependent on imported coal.

Yes quite so. Presumably they would have had some access to Occupied European coal (Czech, Poland, France?). I understand Kosovo was a major source of imported coal for Italy. Most of their oil came from Albania- although not a lot in world terms.

Italy had been making a significant effort to find natural gas in the Po Valley area since the 1920's. Mussolini was convinced it was there-he was right about that. Too bad for facist Italy that they did not find it until 1943, and then in 1944 they hit a mega field of gas. Had they found that resorce 10-15 years earlier, it may well have changed history to a great degree. As it was, the game was as good over when this great resorce was finally found.

I didnt know that. Here is a snippet I got from another forum. I cant answer for the source but its an eye opener!:

Oil in the WWII Era

Worldwide Oil supplies (millions of metric tons) (total 1937 production was 272 mmt):

USA - 164.3 mmt
USSR - 28.8 mmt
Venezuela - (Latin America 41.6 mmt - Mexico and Venezuela?)
Iran - 10 million barrels a day (Iran & Iraq 14.7 mmt)
Romania - 6.5 mmt
Dutch East Indies - 7.3 mmt
Mexico
Iraq - 4 million barrels a day
British Empire - 5.4 mmt
Germany & Austria - 0.54 mmt
Japanese Empire - 0.27 mmt

Wow. Between them the USA and USSR count for approx. 71% of global oil production in that time. Other sources definitely in the Allied camp and/or otherwise safe from Axis arms account for another 23%. That leaves only around 6% or so that the Axis either had in their camp or could easily conquer - most of it Dutch!
 
I guess if you wanted to model this more accurately you would massively boost the oil resources in the USA - easily done with the CSV files, if I'm not mistaken.

ORIGINAL: composer99
Wow. Between them the USA and USSR count for approx. 71% of global oil production in that time. Other sources definitely in the Allied camp and/or otherwise safe from Axis arms account for another 23%. That leaves only around 6% or so that the Axis either had in their camp or could easily conquer - most of it Dutch!

I guess if you wanted to model this more accurately you would massively boost the oil resources in the USA - easily done with the CSV files, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, but I do not know what that would do to play balance.

ORIGINAL: Jimm
Here is a snippet I got from another forum. I cant answer for the source but its an eye opener!:

Oil in the WWII Era

Worldwide Oil supplies (millions of metric tons) (total 1937 production was 272 mmt):

USA - 164.3 mmt
USSR - 28.8 mmt
Venezuela - (Latin America 41.6 mmt - Mexico and Venezuela?)
Iran - 10 million barrels a day (Iran & Iraq 14.7 mmt)
Romania - 6.5 mmt
Dutch East Indies - 7.3 mmt
Mexico
Iraq - 4 million barrels a day
British Empire - 5.4 mmt
Germany & Austria - 0.54 mmt
Japanese Empire - 0.27 mmt

The USA & USSR figures look alike those that can be found in John Ellis' WW2 databoo", so they seem correct.

Yes, but I do not know what that would do to play balance.

 
Indeed, it could have dramatic effects on play balance, so I should hardly expect to see it done often. Mostly people who wanted to try a game with more accurate Allied war production (which is substantially reduced in WiF for the sake of game balance) or who actually thought the game was too pro-Axis (depends on playing groups and styles) might make such modifications. Certainly it would only be a modification made after the game's release by players themselves (if I were to do it, I would only do so after saving an archived copy of the original CSV files to restore the balanced settings).

German fighters used two types of fuel - 100 Octane "C3"-Type and 87 Octane "B4"-Type.
The Type was marked in a small yellow triangle below the opening of the tank, which was on the left top of the fuselage behind the cockpit.
Both, 100 or C3 (87 / B4) in the triangle was possible.
The fuel-type was dependent on the engine-type of the sub-series of the A/C-model.

ORIGINAL: Jimm
Here is a snippet I got from another forum. I cant answer for the source but its an eye opener!:

Oil in the WWII Era

Worldwide Oil supplies (millions of metric tons) (total 1937 production was 272 mmt):

USA - 164.3 mmt
USSR - 28.8 mmt
Venezuela - (Latin America 41.6 mmt - Mexico and Venezuela?)
Iran - 10 million barrels a day (Iran & Iraq 14.7 mmt)
Romania - 6.5 mmt
Dutch East Indies - 7.3 mmt
Mexico
Iraq - 4 million barrels a day
British Empire - 5.4 mmt
Germany & Austria - 0.54 mmt
Japanese Empire - 0.27 mmt

And here is a snippet I kept from a previous WiF discussion :
· 1 OIL = 15-20 million barrels of yearly oil production = 2,1 to 2,8 million metric tons of yearly oil production (2,45 average).

With those figures, seems like the historical 1937 number of Oil resource the USA should have is 67. The 1945 number of Oil resources (227.2 million metric tons) means 93 Oil resources.
Wow, I guess the USA wasted a lot of oil for domestic uses [:D].

Figures from John Ellis WW2 Databook (million metric tons of yearly crude oil production) (p 275) :
Germany
1939 : 3.1 (from which 2.2 are synth oil)
1940 : 4.8 (from which 3.2 are synth oil)
1941 : 5.7 (from which 3.9 are synth oil)
1942 : 6.6 (from which 4.6 are synth oil)
1943 : 7.6 (from which 5.6 are synth oil)
1944 : 5.6 (from which 3.9 are synth oil)

Rumania :
1940 : 5.0
1941 : 5.5
1942 : 5.7
1943 : 5.3
1944 : 3.5

USA :
1942 : 183.9
1943 : 199.6
1944 : 222.5
1945 : 227.2

USSR :
1941 : 33.0
1942 : 22.0
1943 : 18.0
1944 : 18.2
1945 : 19.4

Curious that the USSR's oil production dropped so precipitously in between '41 and '42 given that they didn't lose any major oil fields to Germany. Perhaps they shut down refineries to transfer the workers to factories churning out war materiél or to serve in the Red Army?