Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

You may be right about the SBDs not being on CAP after Coral Sea... SBDs did fight with Japanese when the Japanese were attacking USN carriers, but usually it was because returning flights of SBDs ran into the fight, or were on ASW "inner" patrol and ran into trouble that way.

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

I've been watching those, but I must have missed that one. And SBD taking out three Zeros?!?

Must have been after the "bonus" expired.....[:D]

Most certainly. [:D]

Iirc it was May 42 and Swede was an SBD pilot on Yorktown. I missed what his mission was and why he was flying without other escorts...perhaps on patrol.

Swede used the fact that his SBD could take a higer G turn to continually turn after each pass of a zero to go head on with the next one. Swede pulled consecutive high G turns for 17 minutes before a zero finally made a mistake and swede got in behind it and downed it with a well aimed burst. However by this time a 3rd zero had joined the fight. After downing the first zero Swede caught another one making a high banking turn. He pulled his SBD almost vertical and before he stalled was able to shoot down the zero as it passed in front of him.

The final zero positioned itself for a head on attack and was closing fast. It was trying to ram him. Swede turned away at the last minute and his wing clipped the plane. It went down and somehow the SBD survived.

pretty amazing

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Wasn't it a flight of SBDs that shot up Sakai?

No, it was TBFs. He saw the silluette and thought they were Wildcats. He zoomed in on the tail end charlie and found out too late that he made a mistake and his prey had rear turrets.

Here are a couple of sites about Swede's fight:
http://aviation-history.com/airmen/coralsea.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/04bios/vejtas04.htm

Early in the war it was standard doctrine to use SBDs as back up CAP over carriers. The predominance of the Zero soon changed that practice and the Navy increased the size of the fighter squadron on carriers soon after. A few SBD pilots were moved to fighters when they proved adept at dog fighting. However, the results were mixed. Some were killed fairly quickly in fighters. Swede was one of the successful transitions.

BTW, I checked the pilot database and he is in the game.

Bill

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005



Yorktown and Saratoga both I believe. I think the practice was discontinued after Coral Sea because the results weren't very good.

i seem to remember (from Lundstrum) they prolonged the practice a bit after that (i could be wrong) - the SBDs were pretty much murder on Kates, but Zeros returned the favor for the SBDs.

You may be right about the SBDs not being on CAP after Coral Sea... SBDs did fight with Japanese when the Japanese were attacking USN carriers, but usually it was because returning flights of SBDs ran into the fight, or were on ASW "inner" patrol and ran into trouble that way.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, yeah... But today, there's no such thing as a USN "attack" pilot. There are "strike fighter" pilots, and they fly the various marks of F-18, which is very capable of defending itself.

I remember a story from Gulf War I, where two USN F-18 were rolling in on a target with bombs when a pair of Iraqi fighters attacked them. They shot them both down with Sparrow missiles and then proceeded to bomb their target.

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

[:D]I remeber reading about an SBD that flew alongside a Kate and the gunners were shooting one another[:D] the result was preatty clear from the beggining 2x 12.7mm vs 1x 7.7 and no armor[:D]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, yeah... But today, there's no such thing as a USN "attack" pilot. There are "strike fighter" pilots, and they fly the various marks of F-18, which is very capable of defending itself.

I remember a story from Gulf War I, where two USN F-18 were rolling in on a target with bombs when a pair of Iraqi fighters attacked them. They shot them both down with Sparrow missiles and then proceeded to bomb their target.

You know you have the enemy out matched when fighter bombers don't bother to eject their load before going after intercepting fighters.

With the F-18, the Navy finally has what it has wanted for decades: an all purpose fighter bomber that can do just about everything. With most of the aircraft all one type, it makes maintenance a lot easier as well as adds flexibility of mission. If the carrier is under threat, most of the wing can fly CAP. When there is air supremacy, most of the wing can fly strike missions.

Bill

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

[:D]I remeber reading about an SBD that flew alongside a Kate and the gunners were shooting one another[:D] the result was preatty clear from the beggining 2x 12.7mm vs 1x 7.7 and no armor[:D]

Who had the 12.7mm? The only 12.7mm (aka .50 calibers) on the SBD were the cowling mounted ones the pilot fired. The SBD-3 and earlier were delivered from the factory with a single .30 caliber (7.9mm) in the rear. Between Coral Sea and Midway all carrier borne SBDs were modified in the field to have a pair of .30s in the rear. The SBD-4, 5, and 6 came with the dual .30s factory standard.

It took an incredibly big and strong guy to hold a pair of hand held .50s on the target. Even a single hand held .50 was too much for many gunners. Waist gunners were usually bigger and stronger than most of the rest of the crew on US heavy and medium bombers.

My father was a combat photographer attached to different bomber units. He had to qualify at every position on the plane so he could take over for a wounded gunner. He said the turret guns were no problem, but when he tried firing a hand held .50 from the waist position on a B-17, he fired a short burst at the target and the gun barrel slammed into the upper corner of the window.

He was a crack shot too. He qualified as expert with most single shot infantry weapons in basic. Someone warned him not to let anyone know about that or he might get transferred from the Signal Corps into the infantry as a sniper. The kick from a .50 startled him.

The only installation of paired, hand held .50s I know about were in the waist positions on the YB-40, which was an escort version of the B-17 bristling with fire power. The YB-40 proved to slow to keep up with the bombers on the return trip, so the project was canceled. I believe they combed the 8th AF for the biggest and strongest gunners for the waist positions on the YB-40s.

Bill

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Wasn't it a flight of SBDs that shot up Sakai?

No, it was TBFs. He saw the silluette and thought they were Wildcats. He zoomed in on the tail end charlie and found out too late that he made a mistake and his prey had rear turrets.

Here are a couple of sites about Swede's fight:
http://aviation-history.com/airmen/coralsea.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/04bios/vejtas04.htm

ORIGINAL: Terminus

But think what would happen to the sellers of foot-bullseye paint and foot shooting ammunition! Think of the small businessman![:D]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Wasn't it a flight of SBDs that shot up Sakai?

No, it was TBFs. He saw the silluette and thought they were Wildcats. He zoomed in on the tail end charlie and found out too late that he made a mistake and his prey had rear turrets.

Here are a couple of sites about Swede's fight:
http://aviation-history.com/airmen/coralsea.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/04bios/vejtas04.htm

i'll stick with Lundstrom's analysis - he checked records on both sides, recorded what each claimed, and what actually happened (based on who returned to base, etc.) and a synthesis of what he figured went on based on all data.

IIRC - the Zeroes didn't lose anybody in that particular fight (the low-level attack on the US carriers) on that day.

Lots of stuff floating around on the original claims of the participants in WW2 - you can visit websites, or even memorial for USN subs that have claims of all kinds of sinkings, and then check actual postwar credit and find out 1/10th of it is true.

Alas, i wish "Dogfights" would stick with verified events instead of what people thought might have happened at the time... it would enhance their credibility instead of shooting it in the foot.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

[:D]I remeber reading about an SBD that flew alongside a Kate and the gunners were shooting one another[:D] the result was preatty clear from the beggining 2x 12.7mm vs 1x 7.7 and no armor[:D]

Who had the 12.7mm? The only 12.7mm (aka .50 calibers) on the SBD were the cowling mounted ones the pilot fired. The SBD-3 and earlier were delivered from the factory with a single .30 caliber (7.9mm) in the rear. Between Coral Sea and Midway all carrier borne SBDs were modified in the field to have a pair of .30s in the rear. The SBD-4, 5, and 6 came with the dual .30s factory standard.

It took an incredibly big and strong guy to hold a pair of hand held .50s on the target. Even a single hand held .50 was too much for many gunners. Waist gunners were usually bigger and stronger than most of the rest of the crew on US heavy and medium bombers.

My father was a combat photographer attached to different bomber units. He had to qualify at every position on the plane so he could take over for a wounded gunner. He said the turret guns were no problem, but when he tried firing a hand held .50 from the waist position on a B-17, he fired a short burst at the target and the gun barrel slammed into the upper corner of the window.

He was a crack shot too. He qualified as expert with most single shot infantry weapons in basic. Someone warned him not to let anyone know about that or he might get transferred from the Signal Corps into the infantry as a sniper. The kick from a .50 startled him.

The only installation of paired, hand held .50s I know about were in the waist positions on the YB-40, which was an escort version of the B-17 bristling with fire power. The YB-40 proved to slow to keep up with the bombers on the return trip, so the project was canceled. I believe they combed the 8th AF for the biggest and strongest gunners for the waist positions on the YB-40s.

Bill

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Wasn't it a flight of SBDs that shot up Sakai?

No, it was TBFs. He saw the silluette and thought they were Wildcats. He zoomed in on the tail end charlie and found out too late that he made a mistake and his prey had rear turrets.

Here are a couple of sites about Swede's fight:
http://aviation-history.com/airmen/coralsea.htm
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/04bios/vejtas04.htm

i'll stick with Lundstrom's analysis - he checked records on both sides, recorded what each claimed, and what actually happened (based on who returned to base, etc.) and a synthesis of what he figured went on based on all data.

IIRC - the Zeroes didn't lose anybody in that particular fight (the low-level attack on the US carriers) on that day.

Lots of stuff floating around on the original claims of the participants in WW2 - you can visit websites, or even memorial for USN subs that have claims of all kinds of sinkings, and then check actual postwar credit and find out 1/10th of it is true.

Alas, i wish "Dogfights" would stick with verified events instead of what people thought might have happened at the time... it would enhance their credibility instead of shooting it in the foot.

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

The only "dogfights" I personally have seen (on history channel) are ones where they had the actual pilot telling the story. So in other words, he had to still be alive.

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

I've been watching those, but I must have missed that one. And SBD taking out three Zeros?!?

Must have been after the "bonus" expired.....[:D]

Most certainly. [:D]

Iirc it was May 42 and Swede was an SBD pilot on Yorktown. I missed what his mission was and why he was flying without other escorts...perhaps on patrol.

Swede used the fact that his SBD could take a higer G turn to continually turn after each pass of a zero to go head on with the next one. Swede pulled consecutive high G turns for 17 minutes before a zero finally made a mistake and swede got in behind it and downed it with a well aimed burst. However by this time a 3rd zero had joined the fight. After downing the first zero Swede caught another one making a high banking turn. He pulled his SBD almost vertical and before he stalled was able to shoot down the zero as it passed in front of him.

The final zero positioned itself for a head on attack and was closing fast. It was trying to ram him. Swede turned away at the last minute and his wing clipped the plane. It went down and somehow the SBD survived.

pretty amazing

Sounds like he was keeping his airspeed up. Turning slows you down, and flying slow against Zeros was lethal.