Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: christof139

"Rather than concede to the State of Missouri for one single instant the right to dictate to my government in any matter, however unimportant; I will see you, and you, and you and every man, woman and child in the State of Missouri dead and buried." Brig. Gen Nathaniel Lyon, US

Yes, Lyon wasn't playing games was he. His remarks were similar and made in reply to Secessionist remarks. Unfortuantely, those things occurred in the ACW duirng the 'civil war within a civil war' in Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, east Tennessee and other places, and those things do occur in wars. And ALL and MOST people in Missouri don't think or feel as you do. Tis why most Missourians sided with the Union, not even considering the German immigrants in St. Louis.

You are the one that gets ruffled.

Chris

Whoa. Wait a minute. Let's all agree that the world can be a real screwed up place. Some people work to try and make things better without any other motive except that, while others, pretending to themselves that they care, are only after money and high living. The third group, who openly don't care and work openly and knowingly to screw things up-- these people are behind bars, usually.

End of story, except for the specific details, which is why books are written (though authors, like anyone else who has ever lived or will be living, can fall into one of the three above categories).


Maybe we should do a poll? But then since everyone thinks they are in category one, there'd be no point.


Alan


Alan

The third group, who openly don't care and work openly and knowingly to screw things up-- these people are behind bars, usually.

Or in government...

Ok, no personal attacks please and let's not bring any current day politics into this. You know who you are folks. Let's see if we can all be gentlemen, eh?

[quote]ORIGINAL: christof139

Several of my highschool friends and aquaintances died in Vietnam. I was in 1970-73, but luckily went to Germany, where things were also blown up by terrorists in 1972.

Chris-karoo


Also was stationed in Germany (Heidleberg) during same timeframe. Believe the Bader-Meinhoff gang was responsible for many of the bombings including one way too close to me.

Armed conflict in the Civil war was started by South Carolina attacking a federal fort. Prior to this act Lincoln had not even raised an Army. After this he did. The South had a lot of hot heads that WANTED a war. As for invading... once again the South started the shooting, they started organizing an army BEFORE the Union did and they started the shooting, not the Union.

Lincoln made it plain and quite clear he would do anything in his power to perserve the Union, this intially included NO armed force and an attempt to appeal to cooler heads.

The Federal Government was not usurping State authority nor removing rights, privaleges or laws from the South. The Slavery issue was in fact a non issue. Lincoln had NO intention of ( and no power to even if he wanted) eliminating Slavery in the States that had that institution.

Explain again why if Lincoln had lost there would have been no need for war?

I suggest you read the declarations of Succession from the States that tried to leave. You will find that SLAVERY was the issue. The Southern States ( the slave states) were the ones trying to usurp other States rights and they were using the Federal Government and Courts to do it. Prior to the war EVERY Supreme Court ruling was in support of Southern State Slavery "rights" And the Federal Government was clear that all states had to return escaped slaves if they were captured. The Southern States were in fact trying to make it legal for them to kidnap free blacks from the North and make them slaves, claiming since they had no "papers" proving they were free they were fair game.

The Constitution is clear, EVERY State must treat the citizens of every other State the same. So legally the blacks in the North should have been free ( as citizens of the US) to travel into the South with out fear of being enslaved. This principle is what was used to force Northern States to send back captured slaves. But the converse was never enforced. Several of the Slave States had laws that stated NO black could ever be freed, so even blacks that had "papers" could be reenslaved in those States.

The Civil War was about Slavery, couched in the more palatable terms of "States Rights" the only "right" the south felt was threatened was their right to have, own and maintain slaves. The leaders of this "Civil War" were successful in conniving the majority of their citizens into believing something that simply wasnt true. That Lincoln somehow would threaten the "rights" of the States. If one reads his speaches and his previous history one would quickly realize that was out of character for Lincoln AND more importantly with 15 slave States the Congress would never have approved any such action with those States still in the Union.

The 9th ID comprised of the 39th, 47th and 60th Regts. landed in Normanday on June 10th (D+4) on Utah Beach and not on Omaha.  They did see action in N.Africa, Sicily and Western Europe throughout WWII.

Really. The militia that was legaly gathered was attacked and arrested. Civilians were shot and killed. Men women and children. A 'goverment' was installed by lyons over one which was elected by the people. None of you find this disturbing. Tell me where the feds had any right to order that Mo. raise an army to be used against it's own people. They didn't. Here is Missouri's order of secession. Doesn't sound as if slavery was the issue to these boys. I'm not dwelling on the past as I look to the future, but the facts are there for everyone to see. I love the south. My family is southern and I am from the near-south. That will never change.

order;

An act declaring the political ties heretofore existing between the State of Missouri and the United States of America dissolved.

Whereas the Government of the United States, in the possession and under the control of a sectional party, has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions; and

Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore,

Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Missouri, That all political ties of every character new existing between the Government of the United States of America and the people and government of the State of Missouri are hereby dissolved, and the State of Missouri, resuming the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, does again take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth.

This act to take effect and be in force from and after its passage.

Approved, October 31, 1861.

ORIGINAL: ABridgeTooFar

The 9th ID comprised of the 39th, 47th and 60th Regts. landed in Normanday on June 10th (D+4) on Utah Beach and not on Omaha. They did see action in N.Africa, Sicily and Western Europe throughout WWII.

Are you sure about the Utah landing. I am almost positive that he had a plaque commemorating his landing and that it said Omaha. I could be wrong though.

I am positive that the 9th ID came ashore at Utah.  They were apart of Collins' VII Corps which had the Cotentin Penisula as their area of operations.  The American V Corps (1st and 29th ID) landed at Omaha.  Their area of operations was linking up with the British beaches, linking with the Utah Beach force at Carentan and capturing the city of St. Lo.   However, there were many smaller units that were attached to the 9th ID either temporarily or longer that may have come ashore at Omaha.  The smaller units would have been armoured units, anti-aircraft, medical and other similar type support units.

Upon searching the net it concludes that they did land on Utah. Is there any way some might have come upon Omaha on the 12th? Because that is what I seem to recall. I am going off of memory and am just curious.

mo reb

quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

Several of my highschool friends and aquaintances died in Vietnam. I was in 1970-73, but luckily went to Germany, where things were also blown up by terrorists in 1972.

Chris-karoo


Also was stationed in Germany (Heidleberg) during same timeframe. Believe the Bader-Meinhoff gang was responsible for many of the bombings including one way too close to me.

(in reply to christof139)

Absolutely, I remember it. V Corps HQ was hit with a car bomb and so was 7th Army HQ or an HQ building. I have the dates. casualties, and places, Frankfurt am Main and Heidelberg respectively I believe, in a saved VFW monthly magazine of mine. Yes, dates were May 11th and May 24th, 1972. Casualties totalled 4 KIA and 18 WIA. From what I learned back then, one or both of the car bombs went off either purposefully or accidentally during lucnhtimes, when the offices weren't crowded. Supposedly some trucks were also highjacked by the BMG. This info, the dates and places, and casualties, is in the November 1999 VFW Magazine, page 20. This issue lists many of the Cold War incidents.

The BM Gang was also associated with the PLO at this time. They later merged with some other group or groups, including a Japanese group I do believe, amd became the red Brigades if I am not mistaken.

I was in wonderful Baumholder, and saw the V Corps HQ a day or the same day after it was hit, as I and another fellow were picking up TOW AT Missile System parts in Hanau I do believe. Can't remember exactly what we were doing, but it was official business.

How close were you when the car bomb, or whatever it was, in Heidelburg went off??

Glad you weren't hit with anything.

I have been shot at a couple of times, and seen shootings and stabbings and blah blah blah, and you don't forget those things and try to learn from them. Some guy tried to slice and dice me one day. Phrrrrt.

Chris

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Upon searching the net it concludes that they did land on Utah. Is there any way some might have come upon Omaha on the 12th? Because that is what I seem to recall. I am going off of memory and am just curious.

mo reb

Anything is possible. I am not going to call your neighbor, Mr. Sampson, a liar. He was there, I wasn't. If he says it is true, then it is good enough for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Upon searching the net it concludes that they did land on Utah. Is there any way some might have come upon Omaha on the 12th? Because that is what I seem to recall. I am going off of memory and am just curious.

mo reb



Anything is possible. I am not going to call your neighbor, Mr. Sampson, a liar. He was there, I wasn't. If he says it is true, then it is good enough for me.

You know, some smaller units could have. They were bringing troops ashore wherever it was expedient to do so.

Chris

ORIGINAL: ABridgeTooFar

Anything is possible. I am not going to call your neighbor, Mr. Sampson, a liar. He was there, I wasn't. If he says it is true, then it is good enough for me.

Really it was about 10 years ago since I have seen Mr. Sampson and he didn't tell me about omaha, he just mentioned 'the beach'. I glanced at a framed citation that I thought said omaha prior to that. Like I said, it was my memory. One that is slightly fogged at times.

You know, some smaller units could have. They were bringing troops ashore wherever it was expedient to do so.

Chris

Yes, quite a conflict. One I hope will never be repeated. Peace Christof139. I sometimes let my feelings get in the way of rational discussion. It has been a long time since the war indeed and you and I can certainly be good neighbors, even if we don't agree on certain things.

Mo Reb

After the AWI or RevWar, a consensus was taken in Congress or whatever it was called back then, and 12 out of 13 States were in favor of abolishing slavery, and the only State that wasn't was i do believe SC. Why it wasn't done its a shame and a mystery and led to too many years of suffering for a lot of people, including white indentured servants/slaves etc.

When Detroit basically 'seceeded' in 1967 Slavery wasn't the issue, and the riot started when the DPD busted an after hours joint, a blind pig, and the first Police Officer through the door was a black guy. However, because of years of prejudice and the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War and the heat and humidity etc., this little incident spread and grew, and soon the whole city blew its cork. Hence, Detroit was brought back under control thorugh the use of armed force. Not an exact analogy with the ACW but close.

I abhor the Carpetbaggers after the ACW and the impovershment of the South due to these and local scoundrels, and the Johnson admisnistration didn't help matters. Many Union Vets settled in the South after the ACW,a and the vast majority weren't carpetbaggers or crooks, but settled there because they had fought there and liked the people and country, and some were invited by Southerners to come live in the South. Many acts of friendship and compassion during and after the ACW.

NB Forrest did a lot to sooth feelings and help after the ACW, and addressed an African-American convention of veterans that served on both sides during the war, and he addressed them all as brothers and said he would do whatever he could to help them gain their rightful place in society. He was invited by the Ladies and Vets to speak at the convention. a very touching and sincere moment in our history that was ignored, and this is documented in the Memphis Star. forrest was extremely touched with compassion ans sincerety at this event, and meant every word he said. he also said of the Black confeds. that formed his Bodyguard and served in many of his units, that he neve knew finer Confeds. than they. Forrest was exonerated of the Ft. Pillow massacare through the honest testimony of Union troops that were there.

Much was and has been covered-up and ignored. Another thing that is ignored were the raids into Kansas and the infighting in Missouri before the ACW between pro and anti slavery people. And the anti slavery Kansans (there were pro slavery Kansans too) under Jim Lane etc. did retaliate in a brutal fashion, and so it went on. Quantril hit Lawrence Kansas in retaliation for a Union Kansan/Missourian raid on a Confed. town in MO (I forget the name of the town, but it is in a book or 2 I own). So, many things were pushed under the carpet.

The thing is that it has been 142-years since the ACW ended. Yet still some on both sides seem to carry on forever about somethings that are irrelevant now, at least IMHO. The war tocuhes us personally only in a slight manner now, since none of us experienced those times, yet we remember people and events from then as part of our National Heritage, and from a human perspective of understanding and compassion, not to simply dispute whether a State had the right to secede or whom attacked whom first.

More recent events that we have ourselves experienced and are experiencing are more important and meaningful now.

The Constitution or Preamble or another document states that we as citizens have the right to peacable assemblage armed or unarmed, not armed assemblage with the purpose of causing insurrection and/or anarchy etc.

Supposedly, form the inception of the USA it was one for all and all for one, but in reality things were a bit differnet in the past, and even still so today in many of the same or similar or even different ways, but things have indeed changed over time.

Chris

I remember the Watts riots in LA but I not the Detroit riots. Was there something else going on at the same time to overshadow it?

I remember the Watts riots in LA but I not the Detroit riots. Was there something else going on at the same time to overshadow it?

Overshadow what 'it'. There was Detroit, Watts, Newark, etc., Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, the long ongoing Cold/Hot War, etc. The 1967 Detroit Riots were the worse in the USA during the 20th Century up until the LA Rodney King Riots. the 1942 Detroit Riot was a race riot through and through, unlike the 1967 Riot.

Chris

The vietnam war was a day-t0-day occurence for us, the Watts riots were two years before Detroit so it must be because I was on the West Coast and they didn't play it up as much as the local Watts riot. I was just wondering if there was another event that was happening at the smae time since the Detroit riots were larger than Watts. Or maybe i was too loaded to notice.

ORIGINAL: christof139

quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

Several of my highschool friends and aquaintances died in Vietnam. I was in 1970-73, but luckily went to Germany, where things were also blown up by terrorists in 1972.

Chris-karoo


Also was stationed in Germany (Heidleberg) during same timeframe. Believe the Bader-Meinhoff gang was responsible for many of the bombings including one way too close to me.

(in reply to christof139)

Absolutely, I remember it. V Corps HQ was hit with a car bomb and so was 7th Army HQ or an HQ building. I have the dates. casualties, and places, Frankfurt am Main and Heidelberg respectively I believe, in a saved VFW monthly magazine of mine. Yes, dates were May 11th and May 24th, 1972. Casualties totalled 4 KIA and 18 WIA. From what I learned back then, one or both of the car bombs went off either purposefully or accidentally during lucnhtimes, when the offices weren't crowded. Supposedly some trucks were also highjacked by the BMG. This info, the dates and places, and casualties, is in the November 1999 VFW Magazine, page 20. This issue lists many of the Cold War incidents.

The BM Gang was also associated with the PLO at this time. They later merged with some other group or groups, including a Japanese group I do believe, amd became the red Brigades if I am not mistaken.

I was in wonderful Baumholder, and saw the V Corps HQ a day or the same day after it was hit, as I and another fellow were picking up TOW AT Missile System parts in Hanau I do believe. Can't remember exactly what we were doing, but it was official business.

How close were you when the car bomb, or whatever it was, in Heidelburg went off??

Glad you weren't hit with anything.

I have been shot at a couple of times, and seen shootings and stabbings and blah blah blah, and you don't forget those things and try to learn from them. Some guy tried to slice and dice me one day. Phrrrrt.

Chris



Chris,

I don't remember the exact dates but I was assigned to a highly secured area of USAREUR Headquarters (actually worked in a "bank vault" type of room). At the time, the security checkpoints into the HDQTRS casern was not much, i.e., if you had the appropriate green USA license and the right decal, you were pretty much waved into the facility. The bomb was attached to an officer's car who worked in the same bldg. as me. IIRC, the bomb was detonated electronically somehow; and the officer and an enlisted guy were killed. The blast effect was something I will never forget. Not much left of the vehicle. The area where the car was parked ( the old German paving bricks)depressed down a foot or so. Lots of anti-Nam war protests at the time, particularly in Heidelberg. BTW, I volunteered for Nam, spent 6 days at the Oakland Army base before they decided to divert me to Germany. Typical Army! Yeah...having grown up in one of the "rustbelt" cities, I've seen some pretty crazy stuff on the streets but probably is the reason why I have also been able to avoid many bad situations in the past. Thx for the VFW mag reference...its hard to believe at times that its been 35 years ago.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Drex

The vietnam war was a day-t0-day occurence for us, the Watts riots were two years before Detroit so it must be because I was on the West Coast and they didn't play it up as much as the local Watts riot. I was just wondering if there was another event that was happening at the smae time since the Detroit riots were larger than Watts. Or maybe i was too loaded to notice.

As I recall the City that had the democratic convention in it had a huge riot, cant remember if that was Detroit or Chicago though. Chicago comes to mind cause of the Chicago 7 or what ever they were called.