Matrix Games Forums

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Then please deliver us the facts, would you?

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I already did Marc.


Mario

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
You at Matrix Games would do better with a mantry "we all wargamers are brothers" LOLZ then to allow bashing of Battlefront.com copy protection on your forum. In the end you will see that THAT is not even in your interest. You will have to whip Eddy for a example first LOLZ

I am also Battlefront.com defender hehe. There is princip of action and reaction in life hehe.
See, if you want me to stop bashing price tags then stop bashing other companies RIGHT to make any copy protection they want. Simple as that. You can't be whores and saints at the same time.

Okay, just to get your record straight (which I doubt will make any sense).

We (Matrix Games) have absolutely no problem with Battlefront. You might be surprised to hear that we even *drumroll* play some of their games *drumroll*. Wonder, Wonder.

We (Matrix Games) are not bashing Battlefront or their system of activations. In fact "we" publish a game that needs also online activation "Battleground Europe".

We do not bash Battlefront as much as they do not bash us.

If registered forum members however bring up concerns about their future activation scheme then that is all fair (and by no means "bashing" Battlefront). You might be surprised but there are people on the Battlefront forums that bring up concerns about us too. Funny how the world works.

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
I already did Marc.

Where?

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
I already did Marc.

Ok, because it's you and because I've got some time to kill while monitoring a massive database update I'm going to tell you a true story that maybe helps to get the "sweet spot" concept across - don't worry, I won't charge you for this [:D]

Some years ago we were in London doing some X-Mas shopping when we came across a milk foaming thingamagick that was all the rage and every store had them - as both my father in law and my brother in law are heavy cappuccino drinkers it was the perfect gift for them and at 17 GBP (around $30) the price was just right too.

The gifts were well received and in use to this date, but the thing is that 6 months later we came across the exact same device in a local store for $1.99

Did we feel cheated ?

Nope - the distributor of that device had correctly determined that in order to maximize his sales he couldn't sell it too cheap, because nobody would think it would make a good X-Mas present at $1.99 or charge too much for it and not sell any at all. No, he correctly determined the sweet spot to be at 17 GBP which placed it right there in the price range most people would consider "just right".

To recap : price setting has little to do with production costs, but is almost purely based on the seller trying to optimize his income. If he's correct in his sweet spot determination and #sales * price is higher than his production cost he makes a profit, if not he'll have to either bring down his production cost, either lower (price elasticity) or increase (margin) his price or just stop producing and selling the stuff. That's it - no other options available.

Everyone who complains about a price setting has to convince the seller of this crucial factor : that he'll make more money after lowering his prices, because increased sales numbers will make up for the lower margin. You might be able to make that case for wargames that have been on the market for a number of years, but it'll take some doing for new games.

Now, that said, Matrix also has price elasticity data as they regularly have a sale in which they temporarily reduce the price for wargames that have been around for a couple of years. Since we're not seeing a permanent price reduction for titles that have been on the market for a rather long time we can only conclude that sales for older titles haven't dropped to zero and that a permanent price reduction for some titles is not on the table ... yet. There are psychological aspects too - permanently lower your prices after some time and a lot of wargamers might adopt the "wait for the price to come down" posture.

Now, all of the above is not rocket science - even an illiterate street vendor practices these principles - yet it's something a lot of those complaining about "the price" do not seem to grasp : that yelling "your price is too high" to an ice-cream vendor who's busy serving a long line of customers has zero effect, not on him and not on his customers, but that you might be able to make your case when you observe he's not selling anything.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
You at Matrix Games would do better with a mantry "we all wargamers are brothers" LOLZ then to allow bashing of Battlefront.com copy protection on your forum. In the end you will see that THAT is not even in your interest. You will have to whip Eddy for a example first LOLZ

I am also Battlefront.com defender hehe. There is princip of action and reaction in life hehe.
See, if you want me to stop bashing price tags then stop bashing other companies RIGHT to make any copy protection they want. Simple as that. You can't be whores and saints at the same time.

Okay, just to get your record straight (which I doubt will make any sense).

We (Matrix Games) have absolutely no problem with Battlefront. You might be surprised to hear that we even *drumroll* play some of their games *drumroll*. Wonder, Wonder.

We (Matrix Games) are not bashing Battlefront or their system of activations. In fact "we" publish a game that needs also online activation "Battleground Europe".

We do not bash Battlefront as much as they do not bash us.

If registered forum members however bring up concerns about their future activation scheme then that is all fair (and by no means "bashing" Battlefront). You might be surprised but there are people on the Battlefront forums that bring up concerns about us too. Funny how the world works.

I have no problem with that. Thanks for explanation. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
<ramble snipped>

Well, it's not my fault you didn't pay attention in school when the teacher explained price setting in an open supply and demand economy, including things like the "sweet spot".

Do they actually teach these advanced market theories down there already?
*jk*

Kindergarden economics - 3 Haribo jelly coke bottles for your big sour gummy bear [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

cut long London story etc LOLZ

Eddy ok, but I am not trying to bring you absolute God's truth here. I am stating my opinion, just like you in the re: activation issue.

Nothing else. Where is Oleg, we need another troublemaker here. LOLZ


Mario

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
cut long London story etc LOLZ

Eddy ok, but I am not trying to bring you absolute God's truth here. I am stating my opinion, just like you in the re: activation issue.

Nothing else. Where is Oleg, we need another troublemaker here. LOLZ

Mario

That's insulting - the two of us should suffice for any troublemaking required [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
....

And BTW. if Matrix Games admins wants to BAN me just go ahead do it. But I will say whatever I want and whenever I want. If you ban me even better.

Are you sort of into SM stuff or so, or why do you constantly ask for punishment [;)]?

Since you're always reading & answering his posts one could wonder who's into SM ...

Uh ... oh .... I just realized something [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
....

And BTW. if Matrix Games admins wants to BAN me just go ahead do it. But I will say whatever I want and whenever I want. If you ban me even better.

Are you sort of into SM stuff or so, or why do you constantly ask for punishment [;)]?

Since you're always reading & answering his posts one could wonder who's into SM ...

Uh ... oh .... I just realized something [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

I had lunch break [;)]

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
Nothing else. Where is Oleg, we need another troublemaker here. LOLZ

I am here, and am actually gasping for air - I am so shocked that you actually managed to quote other people's posts correctly couple times in this thread [X(]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck



Are you sort of into SM stuff or so, or why do you constantly ask for punishment [;)]?

Since you're always reading & answering his posts one could wonder who's into SM ...

Uh ... oh .... I just realized something [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

I had lunch break [;)]

My excuse is that they let me choose between "bring peace on earth" and "talk some sense into Mario" - and you know me, I always pick the tougher assignment [8D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: sterckxe



Since you're always reading & answering his posts one could wonder who's into SM ...

Uh ... oh .... I just realized something [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

I had lunch break [;)]

My excuse is that they let me choose between "bring peace on earth" and "talk some sense into Mario" - and you know me, I always pick the tougher assignment [8D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

LOLZ Another funny thread [:D]

And like in all best movies happy end (if someone not spoil it) [8D]


Mario

Why is this still open? ok, it is so here is my nickels worth, inflation and all.. sorry for the odd idiomatic Americanism there..
So one cannot compare BF pricing and MAtrix pricing. MAtrix is a publisher and developer, to an extent, trying to both get great games out and make a profit, every company needstoo or close, yes?
BF? Some good products but really cannot compare the two.

Complane about rehashed products all you want, but MANY matrix rehashes, such as TOAW3 is FANTASTIC, much much better than its prediccessors and well worth Twice the 40.00 charges. Comes with an editor, active senior wargame editing community, actively being patched and rewritten and added too.. why, it is a great game.. Is TOW? maybe, maybe not... combat missions where good to a point, the last limited your builds greatly.. and many are suspicious of the BF verification ideas.

You are stating facts and then using those to reach conclusions, your conlusions are YOURS.. that are not bad or good, just subjective.
I think some games are garbage, some are good and some really hit new highs. Why do we have these choices? PROFIT MARGINS! take them away and we could all go back to chess, game on!

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

In other words BPW:BoN is vaporware....yay I knew it. Another game bites the dust.

You are just so predictable ....[8|]

Lol like Matrixgames isn't? hahahaha

I love the Evil Dead Movies... Bruce Campbell is a god. Anyway, they made a "Necronomicon" Edition of the original Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2, added a few "director's cut" things, and bound it in a "realistic" flesh-like Book of the Dead DVD case. The publisher charged around $30-40 when it first came out, despite the fact that another "remastered" edition of the movie was on the shelves for about $9-15 (without the "director's cut" stuff). Do you know why Monkey Boy? Because it is a "cult classic," niche market item. Did some people buy it for that price? Heck yes they did (I did not, but really wanted to)! The publisher knew that it would not sell tons of copies (because the market for said good was very small, limited to those people that really love Evil Dead, Evil Dead 2, or Army of Darkness). You got one movie, in a nasty case, for $30-50. One movie...

As you have been told before, Wargames are a niche market. The arguement that "lowering the prices will bring you more sales and make you richer in the long run," is strictly wrong. If there are 100 people in the world who want to buy CC:CoI, and you sell it for $50, then undoubtably, 40 of them will buy it. 40 * $50 = $2000. Say you lowered the price to $25 in order to get "more sales." You would have to sell 30 more copies to that limited 100 person market (meaning you would have to sell to 80 out of 100 people) to make the same $2000. That means twice as much marketing, twice as much effort, and twice as much support. If you have a luxury product that you think you can sell to 80% of the available market, I do wish you would let me know what it is... because it sure ain't wargames... and I could make tons of money...

Maybe capitalism is new in your part of the world? [:'(]


Edit: Oh, I did forget to mention... for Ravinhood's sake. These two Necronomicon editions of Evil Dead 1 and Evil Dead 2 are now, after several years, packaged together for $60 (making them 30 each). So they never did reach "bargain bin" prices... drat! I kept waiting and waiting, but that day has yet to come. [:(]

SoM

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

I love the Evil Dead Movies... Bruce Campbell is a god. Anyway, they made a "Necronomicon" Edition of the original Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2, added a few "director's cut" things, and bound it in a "realistic" flesh-like Book of the Dead DVD case. The publisher charged around $30-40 when it first came out, despite the fact that another "remastered" edition of the movie was on the shelves for about $9-15 (without the "director's cut" stuff). Do you know why Monkey Boy? Because it is a "cult classic," niche market item. Did some people buy it for that price? Heck yes they did (I did not, but really wanted to)! The publisher knew that it would not sell tons of copies (because the market for said good was very small, limited to those people that really love Evil Dead, Evil Dead 2, or Army of Darkness). You got one movie, in a nasty case, for $30-50. One movie...

As you have been told before, Wargames are a niche market. The arguement that "lowering the prices will bring you more sales and make you richer in the long run," is strictly wrong. If there are 100 people in the world who want to buy CC:CoI, and you sell it for $50, then undoubtably, 40 of them will buy it. 40 * $50 = $2000. Say you lowered the price to $25 in order to get "more sales." You would have to sell 30 more copies to that limited 100 person market (meaning you would have to sell to 80 out of 100 people) to make the same $2000. That means twice as much marketing, twice as much effort, and twice as much support. If you have a luxury product that you think you can sell to 80% of the available market, I do wish you would let me know what it is... because it sure ain't wargames... and I could make tons of money...

Maybe capitalism is new in your part of the world? [:'(]


Edit: Oh, I did forget to mention... for Ravinhood's sake. These two Necronomicon editions of Evil Dead 1 and Evil Dead 2 are now, after several years, packaged together for $60 (making them 30 each). So they never did reach "bargain bin" prices... drat! I kept waiting and waiting, but that day has yet to come. [:(]

SoM

Revenge of teenage mutant Ninja Matrix Turtles fanboys came a bit of late then I have actually expected [:'(]

I didn't understand a word you just said.

Nor did I even mention Matrix in my post, wargames are a niche market for Battlefront, Matrix, and they were a niche market when Microsoft published the original Close Combat series.

I could treat you like this was the World of Warcraft forum and say...

QQ more newb... L2P

[8D]
Thank god this isn't the WoW forum...

SoM

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

I didn't understand a word you just said.

Nor did I even mention Matrix in my post, wargames are a niche market for Battlefront, Matrix, and they were a niche market when Microsoft published the original Close Combat series.

I could treat you like this was the World of Warcraft forum and say...

QQ more newb... L2P

[8D]
Thank god this isn't the WoW forum...

SoM

I am playing wargames since 1985. so I guess that I am not an newbie. This topic has been chewed on 1000 times as well like some others. I was not in the mood to write something at 2:00 am.

I know that in many discussion some arguments pop up and some are here much often so I can easily get bored replying to that.
Also, I can maybe take that as an insult that capitalism is new to my place. You could also said to me that I am moron and barbarian sugar collector or cotton farmer so why I have anyway giving opinion to your Sir who are president of Toyota America Inc. Buahahahaha. It is nice when some people take that liberty to classify other peoples. For your information I know people (Venture Capitalist) who just in Europe have invested 600 million EUROS in one year alone and I know some things about capitalism believe it or not. Maybe my knowledge is small but this is not a place for boasting on some things. But you can keep thinking of me as some barbarian with a spear who lives in cave.

Now you are giving me a lesson of wargames. I have invented term niche within niche for wargames which is now cited lol So I don't know anything about wargames LOL and I need lecturers like you.

Now that we have explained this thing we can move to other. A reasonably smart man or women too can make some argument for anything, that is old thing, old as world. Of course those re: activation are also here always right and of course it's not their companies so any nonsense they fire up here will not do damage to THEM. And when we think about arguments not all are strong or too important.

To cut this long story, your explanation and argumentation are YOURS and don't cut to me. I simply don't agree. Coming from USA I will not have to fight too much for my barbarian right to have MY OPINION on this isn't it. Freedom of speech is your long tradition , ahem.

I simply don't agree regarding price and have my opinion on this. Of course you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion. This just don't cut it. Also your numbers are empty balloons as you don't have any clear fact that things are like this. Any company only CAN hope that they will sell that or this amount of products.
As when issuing shares and going public, when I was journalist I have seen countless piles of startup companies going to funeral pire. And many other that have been on the market for a while. To not mention Interactive TV companies (and Internet generally) that collected so big French capital but many went bancrupt after year or two when failing to meet the market and investors hopes. I have seen them in Cannes hehe.

I am doing with facts that are present, not hidden and not with baloons. 40$ price is in some ways in fact like that French investors pouring money into some companies that they have expected that they will make it. Well, no I am not paying X money (and if I feel that X is too much for that kind of product) for a support, new titles etc... If they want money for development I will easily connect them with some venture capitalist hehe but I will choose what I will buy for my money and what is the value of bought goods. Simple as that. And now I think that it is not even nececary to repeat again and again why I think that this price is no go. That message I have clearly taken across in my previous posts.


TOAW 3 also is mentioned here. I am TOAW fan but as well in this case as I have say it until there is a SCENARIO that I want to play and that is not present in TOAW COW there is not much interest to me to buy TOAW 3. That is also lifelless pig with a lipstick without that killer app not present in TOAW COW. Fortunately some designers will make something so then I will have motive to buy TOAW 3. Although I have my opinion on that price too lol.
Close Combat: CoI on the other hand will lose some sales on this price maybe even more easily. I know few peoples who don't want to buy this game at this price. Of course I have helped them in their choice with my arguments. See, word of mouth have too tracks.
Ups, I forgot to say this: for remakes price is very important because the older fans of the series will have that extra motive to buy it if you make price right. In this case $29.95. See I didn't said 20$ that would be too cheap and I have seen that Reflexise arcade games are 20$ so I will be generous and for a wargame that would be $29.95 top. If market was larger then $24.95 heh. With price like 40$ I am certain that many fans will just pass it. And then it comes bad PR and etc...



Mario


EDIT: And Son of Montfort - ok another thing. Close Combat is niche thing and Theatre of War isn't? Hahahahaha.
Niche thing are mobile phones as well - well that claims that sales manager that I have met in London. He worked for Cryo Games (do you know them? They are also gone sadly)... We talked in Hammersmith in one hotel about some business. Well, he wanted that I sell their games in Croatia. But that is not now important. He said that computer games are niche. Then I invented term for wargames NICHE WITHIN NICHE. Now all talk that. See how smart I am? LOL

Theatre of War is also niche thing. No matter what that is also niche thing. Battlefront.com will also have a hard time selling it NOT EASY. They have also hook up with Paradox Gamer's Gate and what do you think WHY? Because they don't need another windows for selling? So do you need more arguments?
And that game my friend is now cheaper than CoI. Both are niche games believe it or not. Except that one is brand new and one is pig with a lipstick (ah, I love that kind of new english terms). So I don't know who is blind.

[>:]