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ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

11th AF(Weatern Command-North Pacific): 1941.12.28 Anchorage (Elmendorf Field) as Alaskan Air Force which was Not an offical disignation.

REPLY: Correct - but there was an official designation - Alaska Air National Guard HQ - it is still unofficially the Alaskan Air Force - and Alaskan Command is traditionally an air force HQ. Unusually - the commander or deputy commander (it rotates) is a Canadian general.

When did the Alaska Air NG come into being as in 1941 Alaska was a territory and as such did not have National Guard units which are State and not Territory contolled organizations? And we are discussing 11th AAF and WWII, not modern reality.

Turns out this is incorrect. The National Guard was not - and still is not - a "state" organization - although to be sure most are associated with states. The National Guard was and is a national organization (last I knew 96% of funding was Federal) - and it has always been associated with all forms of US territories - including (today) the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. The Alaska National Guard included marine as well as air and land components, and these have just been added to RHS in x.669 level updates. In fact, not much is officially remembered correctly, and what we were taught officially at ANG HQ did not properly credit the historical ANG in the WWII era. See The Thousand Mile War, Warriors of the Mists, and The Forgotten War (Vols I and II). While an Alaska Territorial Guard regiment was formed, it did not begin formation until the end of 1942, nor come up in strength until 1943. But the Alaska National Guard pre dated the war, and 4 companies of infantry were called to active duty in mid 1941. [Originally each company was in a different town, but they activated 2 to Chillikoot and 2 to Fort Rich, then assembled as a battalion and stayed pretty much together for the entire war]. The new data in RHS reflects a review of all this material. In this period in this theater a similar organization existed in Hawaii - the HNG - of which two regiments were activated in 1941 - combined with the four regular regiments of the Hawaii Division - and used to make two US Army divisions. In 1942 these units lost their Japanese members (to the 100 th battalion) and later were combined into a single regiment - with a Washington NG regiment replacing the other. But the point is that Hawaii - also a territory - had a pre war National Guard component - it was not just Alaska. Hawaii also had a pre war Territorial Guard - and it was activated by Gen Short on Dec 7 1941 in his first series of orders. But it was disbanded in January 1942 out of fear of its Japanese members. In any case, the language I used was USAF official, obtained at the HQ of the Alaskan Command.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

The problem with the 8th Air Force is the same as with many units that were scheduled to go from ETO/MTO to Pacific for Japan invasion and that should arrive as reinforcements in late 1945-1946.... They are not in stock OOB but should be included in mods if there are enough slots...

Historically it was on Okinawa. But we cannot know if Okinawa is available for it in a game. Probably it will not be available. WHERE should it appear?

"Moved without personnell or equipment" sounds pretty administrative to me. If we did put it in, it should start at 99% disabled or something like that. It would be awful late becoming effective for RHS - which recommends the war end on 1 Sept if atom bombs are used (I assume the normal case). Since it had been a strategic bombing force in ETO it may be mainly propaganda - to make it sound like an entire air force had moved - one that did strategic bombing - when in fact it was just a designation. Note that 20th AF liniage claims to have done the ops 8th also claims re atomic bombings. Apparently 20th AF never left CONUS, and formed a separate HQ 20th Bomber Command - which may have operationally been theoretically under the 8th HQ - which had no people or gear. Whatever that may mean? Sounds like propaganda to me. 8th had famous commanders and other history - and still does - so using it may have been a way to mount psychological pressure / generate psychological support in US.

Far East Air Forces sounds a lot more real to me. And it arrives in 1944 - in time to matter. So a HQ WITH personnell and equipment in time for almost a year of ops sounds like better slot usage to me.

For RHS purposes, you wouldn't want to include the Eighth Air Force. In the Summer of 1945 it was deploying from Europe to the Far East to take command of the heavy bombers (about 1,000 each B-29s and B-17s) and their escorts earmarked to transfer from the ETO to the PTO in support of Operation Downfall (the two planned invasions of Japan). Those a/c are included in CHS, but I understand that you cut off reinforcements for RHS in the Summer of 1945. Since there's nothing for the Eighth to command in RHS, why bring it in?

The Twentieth Bomber Command was an odd HQ. It controlled all the B-29s in the PTO, and reported directly to Washington, DC (to the Joint Chiefs, IIRC) instead of to the Twentieth Air Force or any of the theatre commands where it was deployed (India and China in 1944, Central Pacific in 1945). Apparently, the Brass wanted to make sure that no mere four-star admiral or general would divert the B-29s from their prime mission of hammering Japan.

From my (admittedly limited) research, I couldn't tell if the high command planned to subordinate the 20th Bomber Command to the Eighth Air Force, once the "Mighty Eighth" was stood up. The Japanese surrender made it a moot point.

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

From my (admittedly limited) research, I couldn't tell if the high command planned to subordinate the 20th Bomber Command to the Eighth Air Force, once the "Mighty Eighth" was stood up. The Japanese surrender made it a moot point.

According to "Masters of the Air" by Donald Miller, Eight AF 'command' or maybe better, "command personnel" were transfered to the Pacific and Doolittle himself was given command of 720 B-29's. Miller says that Spaatz (recently given command of US Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific) told Doolittle that if he "wanted to get his 8AF in combat with the Japanese he'd better organize a raid for the next day (Atomic bombs had already been dropped at the time of the comment) Doolittle refused on grounds that "if the war was over, he wouldn't risk a single airman just to be able to say that 8AF had operated against the Japanese."

Neillands (The Bomber War) states that very few actual 8AF personnel (aircrews) found their way to the Pacific. There is no indication that there was any plan to subordinate or replace 20AF. Combining the two sources it sounds like Doolittle called it right himself....Spaatz was just trying to get 8AF into the record books as having fought both the Japanese and Germans as an organization.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

From my (admittedly limited) research, I couldn't tell if the high command planned to subordinate the 20th Bomber Command to the Eighth Air Force, once the "Mighty Eighth" was stood up. The Japanese surrender made it a moot point.

According to "Masters of the Air" by Donald Miller, Eight AF 'command' or maybe better, "command personnel" were transfered to the Pacific and Doolittle himself was given command of 720 B-29's. Miller says that Spaatz (recently given command of US Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific) told Doolittle that if he "wanted to get his 8AF in combat with the Japanese he'd better organize a raid for the next day (Atomic bombs had already been dropped at the time of the comment) Doolittle refused on grounds that "if the war was over, he wouldn't risk a single airman just to be able to say that 8AF had operated against the Japanese."

Neillands (The Bomber War) states that very few actual 8AF personnel (aircrews) found their way to the Pacific. There is no indication that there was any plan to subordinate or replace 20AF. Combining the two sources it sounds like Doolittle called it right himself....Spaatz was just trying to get 8AF into the record books as having fought both the Japanese and Germans as an organization.

That is certainly my take as well, and I am sure it was for political purpose.

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

The problem with the 8th Air Force is the same as with many units that were scheduled to go from ETO/MTO to Pacific for Japan invasion and that should arrive as reinforcements in late 1945-1946.... They are not in stock OOB but should be included in mods if there are enough slots...

Historically it was on Okinawa. But we cannot know if Okinawa is available for it in a game. Probably it will not be available. WHERE should it appear?

"Moved without personnell or equipment" sounds pretty administrative to me. If we did put it in, it should start at 99% disabled or something like that. It would be awful late becoming effective for RHS - which recommends the war end on 1 Sept if atom bombs are used (I assume the normal case). Since it had been a strategic bombing force in ETO it may be mainly propaganda - to make it sound like an entire air force had moved - one that did strategic bombing - when in fact it was just a designation. Note that 20th AF liniage claims to have done the ops 8th also claims re atomic bombings. Apparently 20th AF never left CONUS, and formed a separate HQ 20th Bomber Command - which may have operationally been theoretically under the 8th HQ - which had no people or gear. Whatever that may mean? Sounds like propaganda to me. 8th had famous commanders and other history - and still does - so using it may have been a way to mount psychological pressure / generate psychological support in US.

Far East Air Forces sounds a lot more real to me. And it arrives in 1944 - in time to matter. So a HQ WITH personnell and equipment in time for almost a year of ops sounds like better slot usage to me.

For RHS purposes, you wouldn't want to include the Eighth Air Force. In the Summer of 1945 it was deploying from Europe to the Far East to take command of the heavy bombers (about 1,000 each B-29s and B-17s) and their escorts earmarked to transfer from the ETO to the PTO in support of Operation Downfall (the two planned invasions of Japan). Those a/c are included in CHS, but I understand that you cut off reinforcements for RHS in the Summer of 1945. Since there's nothing for the Eighth to command in RHS, why bring it in?

The Twentieth Bomber Command was an odd HQ. It controlled all the B-29s in the PTO, and reported directly to Washington, DC (to the Joint Chiefs, IIRC) instead of to the Twentieth Air Force or any of the theatre commands where it was deployed (India and China in 1944, Central Pacific in 1945). Apparently, the Brass wanted to make sure that no mere four-star admiral or general would divert the B-29s from their prime mission of hammering Japan.

From my (admittedly limited) research, I couldn't tell if the high command planned to subordinate the 20th Bomber Command to the Eighth Air Force, once the "Mighty Eighth" was stood up. The Japanese surrender made it a moot point.

Thanks for this - and also to Nik for germane related follow up comments.

I have another take. A student of the atomic bombings, I have hard documentary information that these were actually controlled by General Groves. For one thing, when the decision was made by President Truman to stop the atomic bombing campaign (a decision made BEFORE Japan surrendered as far as we knew), NO ONE had the power to stop it directly. Groves had actual authority to drop the next weapon (which was all there was available) - and in order to insure he didn't - a Manhattan Project Navy Captain was sent to prevent delivery of a vital part of the mechanism before assembly. It may be that control of 20th Bomber Group was held in DC for strategic reasons, and to permit delegation of elements of it to atomic bombing. It also may have been involved with the planned chemical bombings associated with Olympic (and later) campaigns. Here we have a strange case where the orders were ordered destroyed, they were not in fact destroyed, and the order to have them destroyed was found (and published by Military History Magazine) a generation after the war. I don't remember how the CW was to be delivered - but I think it was also by bombers. These operations, which came to be called "special" during the post war period, may have required extraordinary command arrangements. The idea that one man (not the president or a theater commander) might control atomic bombings survived until the Kennedy era, when the Sprague Commission report caused outgoing President Eisenhauer to recommend changes. Gen Curtis LeMay had that authority then (as commander SAC) and he told Mr Sprague that he would order - without notice to JCS or the President - a general nuclear strike on the Soviet Union if photographic intelligence indicated in his view an assembly of Soviet bombers. We have lived with the modern command system so long we probably don't realize it wasn't always this way - and in the early days no one knew enough to command except Groves.

For the moment I have gone with this advice - although I didn't actually read it until now it is what I did. I created the 20th "Command" in place of 20th Air Force - leaving who controls it undefined (it is the Allied player in any case). I created a 4th Air Force for control of the US West Coast ops - unless you reassign it. And I did not create an 8th Air force. So we ended up with one more air force than CHS or stock (or anyone else I know about) - but 8th is not one of them. My logic was virtually the same as above. Our bomber reinforcements end at the end of August 1945 - and not much of the 8th would be present by then.