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Why avoid Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky"?

Because it's to a high degree redundant with both Frank's Guadalcanal and Lundstroms's 1st Team V1 and V2, andbecause it seems to me like an "afterthought" volume cobbled together from the bits and pieces of "Touched With Fire" research that were discarded when that volume was written. Indeed there are even some verbatim repititious passages in FiTS that occur in TwF.

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.

I concur with prior poster's recommendation of Blair's study of US Submarine operations.

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.

The book was never intended to be a definitive and exhaustive account of war in the South Pacific, As Bergerud himself states in the preface (page xvii), "This book is not a standard narrative history... Because the narrative groundwork has been done, I have not tried to create another account of the war in the South Pacific as viewed by important military commanders. Instead, aided by dozens of original interviews with American and Anzac veterans of the conflict, I have tried to examine and explain the war's texture and tempo.... I have tried to find the point where the coherence of war meets the brutal experience that confronts those who fight it. In other words, rather than treating the struggle as a chess match between rival leaders, I have tried to reconstruct and cast light upon the flow of battle... but the core of my book concerns the men who fought the war, the weapons they used, how they viewed the events, and the nature of the battlefield where they tended to do their forbidding task."

And it does that quite well... from the little guy's POV. It doesn't attempt to provide a detailed analysis of each air battle instead it does define the battles in terms of the men who actually fought them. And it does provide a good description of many of the air bases, Allied and Japanese. That's what makes it a good read.

Certainly not a book to be "avoided."

Chez

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

A-friggin-men!

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Why avoid Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky"?

Because it's to a high degree redundant with both Frank's Guadalcanal and Lundstroms's 1st Team V1 and V2, andbecause it seems to me like an "afterthought" volume cobbled together from the bits and pieces of "Touched With Fire" research that were discarded when that volume was written. Indeed there are even some verbatim repititious passages in FiTS that occur in TwF.

There's certainly some redundancy with Frank and Lundstrom, but he takes a completely different approach. And yes, there were at least half a dozen duplicate passages in Bergerud's two books (that I noticed).

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.

I got a different impression myself. I felt it did provide a good "look and feel" for a book of it's scope. Certainly individual biographies or unit histories do better in that regard. I also thought it was insightful in terms of how & why the South Pac war developed the way it did, the mistakes the Japanese made and ultimately how & why the allies ultimately established air supremacy in the theater.

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

I have to agree. Many of the personal accounts contain detail that you just can't find in the statistics. I'm not referring to "color" here, but the details about how the war was actually fought by those who fought it. Numbers and statistics are important to, but only tell half the story.

Pig Boat 39 was excellent! it gives you a good idea of what service in the Phillipines was like before the war and what a pain in the ass the S boats were to maintain.

A good read, a friend at work who spent 20 years in the modern Navy loved it because it reminded him as to what had not changed in over sixty years.

Even though it covers the entire war just cull the volumes that cover the Atlantic or Med..............

History of the United States Naval Operations in World War II, 14 Volumes (Hardcover)
by Samuel Eliot Morrison

And to get really specific Middlebrook's Loss of POW and Repulse is an excellent read, as are nearly all his books

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

Couldn’t have said it better than Chez, so I won’t. But one point I want to bring out is that the original poster is looking for introductory sources to the subject, and as far as the Air War in the South Pacific I’d say FiTS is probably the best. It covers all the aspects and challenges of operating in theater, and makes easily accessible the kind of information someone who is thoroughly unfamiliar with would want.

Now if you were someone who were just trying to disprove or disagree with anything anyone on this fourm said, perhaps more intensive and exclusive sources are required.

Certainly individual biographies or unit histories do better in that regard.

Exactly. For air combat side of the war as perceived by the people who fought it, some good picks:

The Cactus Air Force by Thomas G. Miller
Samurai! by Saburo Sakai
Lightning Strike by Don Davis
God is My Co-Pilot by Robert Scott
I Could Never Be So Lucky Again by James Doolittle
Baa Baa Black Sheep by Gregory Boyington
With Chennault in China by Robert M. Smith
Aces Against Japan: The American Aces Speak, Vols 1 & 2 by Eric Hammel
Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo by Ted Lawson

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

Couldn’t have said it better than Chez, so I won’t. But one point I want to bring out is that the original poster is looking for introductory sources to the subject, and as far as the Air War in the South Pacific I’d say FiTS is probably the best. It covers all the aspects and challenges of operating in theater, and makes easily accessible the kind of information someone who is thoroughly unfamiliar with would want.

Now if you were someone who were just trying to disprove or disagree with anything anyone on this fourm said, perhaps more intensive and exclusive sources are required.

I will add my voice to those recommending Fire in the Sky. It is an excellent book on the subject and goes well into the how's and why's of the airwar in the south Pacific to a greater depth than either Lundstrom or Frank which chronicle specific battles. His unique approach of dividing the book into sections devoted to the critical factors that influenced the nature of the war (The Machines....The men....The environment) helps break it down for the layman and explain how they factored in, and influenced the combat and operational deployment of the airforces.

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

Couldn’t have said it better than Chez, so I won’t. But one point I want to bring out is that the original poster is looking for introductory sources to the subject, and as far as the Air War in the South Pacific I’d say FiTS is probably the best. It covers all the aspects and challenges of operating in theater, and makes easily accessible the kind of information someone who is thoroughly unfamiliar with would want.

Now if you were someone who were just trying to disprove or disagree with anything anyone on this fourm said, perhaps more intensive and exclusive sources are required.

I probably should have made myself clearer in my original post. I am not necessary looking for an introductory text, though I am not ruling one out. The Toland book I read back when it was on the best seller list as a hardback, so it was quite a while ago when I first read it. The Costello book I read about 15 years ago. In other words it has been awhile since I read a complete survey of the pacific theater. I went back to my local book store to see if FitS was on there shelves in the World War II section, which semms to be a bit dominated by the war in Europe. The only pacific surveys were the 2 I have aready read. It looks like it will have to be amazon for me. I had been hoping that some had done for the War in the Pacific what Shelby Foote did for the civil war, a narrative book about a foot thick in pages[:)].

note: I did pick up a copy of the Naked and the Dead and am now a hundred pages in. I am finding it a nice piece of World War II fiction.

Full coverage books on the WitP are limited but I'd recommend Costello's "The Pacific War" even if you read it long ago as it's worth a re-visit. It is particularly excellent in analysing the how's and whys leading up to the war...pulling no punches and dispensing with any white hat / black hat approaches. (my opinion, the most fascinating part of the book)

Book also is good in covering less well known areas of the war such as China and the politics that went on at the high level (influencing Big "Three" decisions etc)

In similar vein to FitS (for aircombat) i'd also recommend Professor Dull's "Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy" Still a classic and very informative as well as presenting the rare viewpoint from the Japanese perspective. Some of the specific info is outdated (written in the 70's) such as the loss report numbers for aircraft attacking Midway for example but overall it's still quite a relevant piece of work covering the naval side of the entire war.

An interesting read on the early part of the war... Empires in the Balance by H.P. Willmott (U.S. Naval Institute Press)

This book covers background information on the Japanese pre-war situation, along with their view and rationale behind going to war. Also touches on both the Allied and Japanese war plans (as they existed prior to hostilities).

The book also covers events in the early phases of the war through April, 1942 - especially covering events in Malaya, Philippines, Dutch Indies, and Burma. The "rise and fall" of ABDA command is covered extensively. Probably the most material I've read about how the Allied situation fell apart in Malaya and the Dutch Indies.

Exactly. For air combat side of the war as perceived by the people who fought it, some good picks:

The Cactus Air Force by Thomas G. Miller
Samurai! by Saburo Sakai
Lightning Strike by Don Davis
God is My Co-Pilot by Robert Scott
I Could Never Be So Lucky Again by James Doolittle
Baa Baa Black Sheep by Gregory Boyington
With Chennault in China by Robert M. Smith
Aces Against Japan: The American Aces Speak, Vols 1 & 2 by Eric Hammel
Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo by Ted Lawson

Interesting choices for someone who doesn't think anecdotal stories and individual biographies present compelling jobs representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it. Some of these choices are quite questionable IMO.

Take Boyington's book. Throw it away. I found it to be completely self-serving and in no way truthfully tells the story of how he fought the war. Reading it gives one the impression that everyone was against him and that he single-handly won the air war in the Pacific by himself. (Similar to that character portrayed by a certain unmentionable actor in a certain movie which name cannot be mentioned.) He certainly lied about his air-air victories and most probably about his conduct as a POW. He later admitting to sharing liquor with his captors and he was one of the few POWs who did not lose a great deal of weight while in captivity.

Robert Scott never was a member of the AVG but he did command its successor, the 23rd FG. Scott did fly a few missions using an AVG P-40 but only as an escort for the ATC transports that he was XO of. He also flew several ground attack missions. But his account doesn't really relate much regarding combat opertions.

Sakai has stated that Caidin misquoted him in several and took several liberties with many of the events portrayed in the book especially with his kill record. He was disappointed in the book. There is some debate over whether Sakai refused the royalties or was denied his share because he did not feel the book was worth promoting. Still, overall, it does tell Sakai's story to a certain degree.

"The Catus Air Force" is decent but is pretty one-sided as one would expect from a book that represents only one side of the conflict. "With Chennault in China" by Robert M. Smith is also pretty good as far as it goes.

Been a long time since I read "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo." I remember it as being a good read but don't remember much of the details.

Not sure if I have read any of the others.

Chez

I will add my voice to those recommending Fire in the Sky. It is an excellent book on the subject and goes well into the how's and why's of the airwar in the south Pacific to a greater depth than either Lundstrom or Frank which chronicle specific battles. His unique approach of dividing the book into sections devoted to the critical factors that influenced the nature of the war (The Machines....The men....The environment) helps break it down for the layman and explain how they factored in, and influenced the combat and operational deployment of the airforces.

Dividing the book into sections is why it is a compelling read. That plus the dozens of anecdotal stories to highlight different topics. Hard to understand why someone would find it worthless... unless of course it didn't support their contentions...

Chez

"Been a long time since I read "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo." I remember it as being a good read but don't remember much of the details."

IIRC, I read that one in either 4th or 5th grade (not for school, but that was when I read it).

I'd like to thank everyone for the suggestions.  I ended up buying a copy of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" mainly because it was the only recommended book I hadn't read that bookstore carried.