Matrix Games Forums

SeaMonkey,

I'll take another look at SC2 as well - I see they released an updated demo, whereas my last experience was with the initial release. However, I stand by our games as being excellent as well and I see CEAW and GGWAW:AWD as aimed at different segments of the WW2 grand strategy market. CEAW really has a great mix of accessibility and fun gameplay - I don't think it's at all far-fetched to compare it to the original Panzer General in that sense. As far as AWD's AI and gameplay, I'd say one of its strengths is that it is global, covering the entirety of WW2 and that it plays out very historically compared to many other titles.

I believe there's still an AWD tournament going on, you may want to check some of the AARs there if you're interested.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks for the input, everybody.

I am an old grognard who has been wargaming since the very early 70's.

I spent endless hours playing Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader and Third Reich/Advanced Third Reich. The same with countless other titles/game genres.

I like detail and options.I LOVE War in the Pacific/WarPlan Orange. I also play Forge of Freedom and For Liberty!. I have played and enjoyed the Europa Universalis line and its knock offs like Victoria, etc.

I LOATHED Axis and Allies. The Gary Grigsby title looks too much like that game.

Ill take a pass on CEaW and wait for World in Flames.

Schwerpunkt Games was developing a Western European Theater game, as well.

We'll see.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Which other WWII grand strategy titles have you played in the last few years?

SC, SC2, HOI, TOAW Europe Ablaze scenario and various part-WW2 large scale scenarios, Hitler's War for Windows

At the moment Guns of August shows how a game can be both simple and immersive IMO - sadly it isn't WW2 and frank is working on other eras so it won't be ported to WW2 for a long time, if ever.

Erik, you're most certainly correct, I own GGWaW and Panther's HttR, excellent games and I love the way Matrix promotes this finite wargaming market.  You have my devoted attention.....and business.
 
But I do recognize developers of unequalled commitment, like Hubert Cater, a true artist in the wargaming niche.
 
I'm not taking away from other developers, designers, promoters and I see Johan definitely has some talent, it just needs a bit of refinement and I'm sure if he exhibits the devotion of HC then he too will enter the ranks of the Hall of Wargame fame.
 
What I'm saying to any person that cares for the GS scale is that not sampling the many excellent features that have evolved into the present SC version(WaW), has not given themselves the benefit of the best creation of this genre.
 
It exists in the realm of complex simplicity, much as GGWaW, but with the nostalgic feel of our old favorite AH and SPI boardgames.

Okay, I'll add my 2 cents since I helped Beta this game and Inspire our Fine WW2 Strategy Game Lover Johan. I started on-line PBEM with Axis & Allies, for a 14 year old, doable... Gets boring a little though, but anyone who loves the strategic flavor of a game, won't get bored right away. The Computerized Version was a little dwarfed, and tended toward a large amount of gambling... I graduated to Command Headquarters for Modem Live Action, was neat...then onto High Command, 3rd Reich, Strategic Command, HOI, EU2-Victoria, etc... HOI is way too detailed and feels way too much like EU2, but is vaguely interesting!

I even tried Panzer General, but I do not like Tactical Wargames and always returned them or threw them aside(personally I prefer RTS or FirstPerson Shooters b4 Tactical Wargaming), about 20-30 Strategic Titles have been released over the years, that were really decent. A lot of titles emphazising Strategic Wargaming have been released that weren't what they promised. There are those that will entertain you for 24-48 hours as well, or those that will burn a hole in your heart, like 3rd Reich or High Command or even Strategic Command. These are some Legends baby


As for this game, I originally was a bit skeptical, the map isn't glittery, but interface looks like it follows the Genre, as do the units... I'm certian that it must be entertaining and worth the money. There are so few WW2 Strategic Games out there that are. As for World At War, it sucked! It was as I heard, Axis & Allies without IP. There was no support for it as Gary didn't sell the amount of copies he wanted. So I sold the game on Ebay! Never did I look back! Strategic Command 2, HOI Series, and this game are the latest and greatest. As for a World in Flames, it will never come out


There are 2 things that did to be done, there needs to be a Demo for this game!!! I fell in love with Strategic Command over the Demo, not over wondering. Noone wants to be curious about what they will get, you just mod it down to something that is a teaser but not a spoiler. I know what a lot of Companies think too, make them buy it if they want to see, or the Screenies are enough. NO, They're not, people want the feel of the Game. Too many Pretty boxes have been sold to us with pretty pictures on the back for us to trust Developers ANYMORE. and I have bought a lot of Matrix titles and been a bit disappointed, but I'm glad they support the Wargaming Industry and I love WW2online


Give us a Demo, I'm too broke I just moved or I'd buy this title, I'm that much of a Strategic Wargame Lover, though if I didn't appreciate I'd resell it.. The Demo will sell you a thousand Times MORE If the games lives up to the expectation. No Hype, expectation and trust your Customers, they want to see a breast before they buy the Turkey

Did you just hear that Erik? What WG123 said about demos. He is right on and I know there seems to be a policy of Matrix to not provide them, big mistake IMO.

I understand why, I have heard the rationalization before, but that SC demo he refered to was the same one that hooked me for what, like 5 years now.

I have bought numerous copies of SC and distributed to my friends and family and we play constantly. When the expansion of SC2 WaW comes out, I will rebuy SC2 even though I may not need it and give my current copy to someone else.

That's how good it is. The editor is awesome. I fought for a SC editor on lines of Norm's TOAW and Hubert listened, the rest is history.

History in the making.[&o]

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Did you just hear that Erik? What WG123 said about demos. He is right on and I know there seems to be a policy of Matrix to not provide them, big mistake IMO.


...[snip]

Does Matrix have a policy against presenting demo downloads for prospective buyers?

If so, this is not a good thing.

You risk losing more customers in the long run by having them buy games that suck than giving them a demo which may result in them not buying a game.

I mean this. You're better off giving them a preview and them not liking the demo than having them shell out 60 bucks for a game that sucks or they do not like. If they download a demo and don't like the game they will not buy it. If they spend 60 bucks and do not like the game, they may not come back.

Well, I'm not going to revisit the whole demo discussion. In short, we have no policy against demos. However, we also have no policy in favor of demos. We do demos on a case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos. If you check, a decent number of our games do have demos available, however this is not one.

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Well, I'm not going to revisit the whole demo discussion. In short, we have no policy against demos. However, we also have no policy in favor of demos. We do demos on a case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos. If you check, a decent number of our games do have demos available, however this is not one ...

To demo, or not to demo; although there's no Matrix policy for or against this, is there a set of criteria for when a demo is done.

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
To demo, or not to demo; although there's no Matrix policy for or against this, is there a set of criteria for when a demo is done.

As Erik said (and sorry for continuing on the demo path, can't seem to keep fingers off the keyboard [;)] ) :

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...case by case basis and based on past responses and feedback for demos.

Having been part of the COTA Beta Team, as well as many of the demo discussions, I know the discussions there and I´d say that most of the time the main driver for demo/no demo is resources and time available at the developer. Remember, this is not PSP or Nintendo volumes of games, but the games still have to carry their development costs. So, if it's relatively simple to make a (good) demo it'll most likely be done, while if it takes much extra effort = noticeable increase in cost even with some additional sales accounted for as a result of having a (good) demo it is more doubtful

A final parameter which is also most likely critical is the posibility to make demo that actually justifiy the game. IMHO a demo of WitP does not make much sense, as the game has almost infinte complexity, and a fair representation of that would be hard to present in a demo. On the other hand, a game like Flashpoint Germany which is both less complex and less complicated is a lot more straightforward in terms of producing a "good" demo = One scenario more or less can represent how the game works/plays

ORIGINAL: Widell

ORIGINAL:

... I´d say that most of the time the main driver for demo/no demo is resources and time available at the developer ... if it's relatively simple to make a (good) demo it'll most likely be done, while if it takes much extra effort = noticeable increase in cost even with some additional sales accounted for as a result of having a (good) demo it is more doubtful

A final parameter which is also most likely critical is the posibility to make demo that actually justifiy the game. IMHO a demo of WitP does not make much sense, as the game has almost infinte complexity, and a fair representation of that would be hard to present in a demo. On the other hand, a game like Flashpoint Germany which is both less complex and less complicated is a lot more straightforward in terms of producing a "good" demo = One scenario more or less can represent how the game works/plays

Thanks; I don't know if you realized it, but you actually answered my question [;)]

[:-] No Demo means I will probably not purchase right now, so that's one lost sell. There are several people here trudging over the purchase. That's at least $200...make that exponential to several other People asking the same questions across other Bulletin Boards that's $1000.00! Yes, certianly there is more energy into making a demo, certianly a Fall of France Teaser as in Strategic Command's case only going to create addicts. You are losing Customers by not getting them addicted. I'm sorry to say A demo is the best advertisement in the World. I nolonger listen to all these magazines who have playtesters who have been either bought out or are pathetically behind in the Genre and will give you two thumbs up when it's not earned. In this Modern Industry, unless what you're selling has a reputation as in a Sequel or a precise engine in which it is modelled after you need to show the Potential Buyer what he may be getting into. So many Unhappy People these days feel betrayed by Pretty Boxes or faulty advertising. I rarely buy games anymore, and my resell rate is 95% of those that did not have Demos

P.S. From the positive feedback I've read in the AARs and those people who I personally know who've played the game I'd buy it.. However not based on the Advertisement aside from the pictures and Facts nor on the Magazine-Online Articles... Word Of Mouth is more powerful as is a Piece of the Pie than anything as is a piece of the pie

Without wanting to sound ungrateful $1,000 does not go a long way
 
It's less than a days running costs and a demo sure takes a lot longer than 1 day! But apart from that we don't feel its the type of game where you can give away a little without giving away too much. A bad demo can be much worse than no demo.

Admittedly, I rarely download demos as I'm still using dial-up, so most of my game choices are based on genre and the company making the software.

For example, after enjoying EU, I expected HoI was similar enough in concept to buy; if I liked one I will probably like the other. HoI2 was sold new @ $19.99 US, so I couldn't resist another purchase.

Besides, if I didn't like the game, I could always trade it in at an acceptable loss.

But here in the colonies, now that HDs are 160 plus GBs, PC games can be easilly saved in their entirerty on computers, so many retail stores no longer trade or deal in these discs; therfore, my purchases now have to be more selective.

CEaW seems a cross between HoI and PG, and I liked both; but w/high end real time PC sims, I'm not sure I want my gaming to go "retro."

But I will keep checking this forum as it is a perfect barometer of customer satisfaction, or the lack therof. And it's amazing how quickly this barometer can change after a few well-made patches!

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Without wanting to sound ungrateful $1,000 does not go a long way

It's less than a days running costs and a demo sure takes a lot longer than 1 day! But apart from that we don't feel its the type of game where you can give away a little without giving away too much. A bad demo can be much worse than no demo.

Iain, I think you're wrong on this one. As you undoubtedly know from reading my posts on the Slitherine CEAW forum, I am a great fan of this game, and especially appreciate that it can be modded, has a PBEM mode, and is well supported by the developer.

A demo would get the "fence-sitters" off the fence. Either they would love it (as I and many others do), or they would make up their minds not to buy it, and at least we wouldn't have to listen to the ongoing dialogue about "to buy or not to buy".

I think Slitherine could set up a demo of the invasion of Poland and it would not be giving away too much. And it would be enough for someone to get an idea of how the game works.

It does puzzle me that there is so much drama over a $50 game---in Canada, that is just about the cost of a movie for two (including drinks and popcorn---add in gas, possible baby-sitter, etc) and frankly, this game is a hell of lot more entertaining for a much longer time than any movie I have seen in recent years.

ORIGINAL: wargamer123

a Fall of France Teaser as in Strategic Command's case only going to create addicts.

Notwithstanding what I said in my previous response to Iain's comments, SC2's demo is a perfect case in point supporting what Iain said about bad demo's. I thought the SC2 demo was poorly implemented, and it actually convinced me to NOT buy the game.

But, at least I knew.

Really, we've had this discussion at very extended length before, so I'm not interested in jumping back into it to a great degree. Searching the forum and the usenet newsgroup will give you a good idea of my opinions.

In short, the only two criteria we really consider for a demo is whether we think it will be a better tool to show off the game than the other tools we have (screenshots, ads, AARs, previews, movies) and whether the developer wants to do a demo. Demos do consume development time and resources, but if we and the developer feel a game would do well with a demo, that's rarely an issue. We have no policy against demos. However, we've tried demos for various games in the past and believe me, the results do vary.

Bad demos (which either misrepresent the game or don't explain it well enough) can actually hurt sales and we've found that for the time spent on them, demos are actually less bang for the buck than most other promotional tools. The top two things that can make a bad demo, IMHO are #1 if it doesn't explain the game well and #2 if it gives away too much of the game. In the case of #1 that's VERY easy to do with a wargame. Most wargames are much more complex than CEAW and most people spend 10-15 minutes on a demo, not even enough time to learn the game. This includes many wargamers, unfortunately. #2 applies more to a game like CEAW and knowing where to draw the line between what's given away in the demo and what's reserved for the full version can be tricky.

We do realize that gamers love demos - we're gamers too and we understand that. However, demos are not the be all - end all of promoting a game. I realize some folks won't buy without a demo - unfortunately some of our titles will never have demos. However, we've had a very good response in general to the other methods of explaining and presenting a game. I'd say for wargames that a good AAR is actually a better way to explain the game to a customer than a demo if they have 15 minutes to actually look at some kind of preview info, since the AAR shows them what a player who already knows how to play can do and what the game can do. It can take a lot more than 15 minutes with a wargame demo to get that level of enjoyment out of it, which is unfortunately more than most people give a demo in terms of attention span.

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

... In short, the only two criteria we really consider for a demo is whether we think it will be a better tool to show off the game than the other tools we have (screenshots, ads, AARs, previews, movies) and whether the developer wants to do a demo ...

The forgotten factor.

I have worked in software creation! I know for a fact that Matrix is wrong, it is in my opinion laziness. I have been in the Software Industry as a customer for 18-19 years, an admirer for more... I have been making money in it as well!
 
DEMOS sell!!! Unless what you're selling is purposely concealing something in order to get that 'purchase'... Screenshots, Writeups, Stories all that is hogwash, i.e. Masters of Orion III!!! Jesus! Ahmen!
 
The more you advertise, the more that people see what you have the better. When you offer them your Engine up for Examination, they get the gist of it. They fall in love or they loathe it, but either way you end up with a satisfied customer. That is the Goal of the Software Developer, that and make money. If you do not do both you will not succeed and your endeavor is fruitless!
 
 
Believe me, I know I have been buying wargames since before Puberty.

I wonder why the biggest games such as Command and Conquer had no demo? Maybe they need some lessons in marketing so they can make their games a success
 
Software and games are very very different so expereince in one area does not always work in another. Even casual games are very different to gamers games and online games are another area completely.
 
We've done demos before and we may do a demo of Commander at some later date but have no current plans to do so.