Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

In modern Hinduism the 'Swastik' as it's called there, is considered the sun symbol of somekind... (I could be mixing things here).

This is the origin (more or less) of the symbol. Hitler borrowed it from Indian Aryan civilisation.

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...

Why not? It just worries me that some people don't feel that they should be trusted to see Nazi symbolism in case they become magically brainwashed. It seems like an extension of the theory that the Germans were completely innocent and were just under the control of a handful of super-evil Nazis.

You can say a number of things about modern America- a lot of them not very pleasant. However it's an outrageous stretch of the definition of "Fascism" to apply it to the current government of the United States.

I´m saying if we ban historical symbols in wargames because of feel good politics we´ll end up with two white flags facing each other. Roll out an American flag to your average person in the middle east and ask them what this symbol stands for and if they like it. I think you can guess what they´ll say. [;)]

I can tell you what the reply will be in Latin America where I am will be...something along the lines of ¨Yankee imperialist go home¨ or ¨fascist, fuera Bush¨ Something like that. Personally I don´t like when Bush comes here because every time he does there is a riot. [:D][:D]

So it´s all very much perspective as to where you are and what symbols are politically correct. But in a wargaming context, as we are talking about here, accurate symbology, past & present, hold no political value and are only used for historical purposes.

I think that´s pretty much all wargamers. Besides, if a black man has a US civil war game and is offended by the Confederate flag in it, he can be free to black it out. If an Arab man is playing a wargame with an American flag in it and is offended, he can be free to black it out. If an American is offended by the swastica in his game, he can be free to black it out. So on and so on. No one is pushing a symbol on anyone someone else feels offended by. Everyone should be free to choose on a personal level what symbols they will use in their wargames.

But passing across the board legislation that criminalizes 3 guys pushing a swastica chit around on an economic income chart of ¨War in Russia¨ at a kitchen table seems a bit absurd.[8|]

Not exactly on par with marching through Brandenburg Gate with Nazi flags flying now is it? [:D]

Well anyways, my ¨SS¨ question was answered and yes, I´ll use it in TOAW scenarios calling for it, as well as every other symbol from every other time period I play. Everyone else if free to do as they wish.

Basically harmless, though. How did the communist party poll in the last few French elections

I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara? But I still use the Sickle and Hammer when playing Barbarossa and I´m still surviving...somehow. [;)][:D]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I´m saying if we ban historical symbols in wargames because of feel good politics we´ll end up with two white flags facing each other. Roll out an American flag to your average person in the middle east and ask them what this symbol stands for and if they like it. I think you can guess what they´ll say. [;)]

Sure. I imagine one could have achieved something similar in the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

I can tell you what the reply will be in Latin America where I am will be...something along the lines of ¨Yankee imperialist go home¨ or ¨fascist, fuera Bush¨

All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.

I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara?

Well fortunately two of these are dead and one is on the way out. I do take your point- but on the whole real, thoroughbred communism has been given a complete testdrive by humanity, and they've opted to go for the economy model. We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.

..really[X(][X(]

..is that the US as a whole or just the bits that didn't vote for him...twice...

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.

..i thought you'd tried that, albeit modified slightly, with dear lovable Maggie, or maybe i imagined all that social unrest and how hard it was on the feet...[8D]

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..i thought you'd tried that, albeit modified slightly, with dear lovable Maggie,

Margaret Thatcher is virtually the polar opposite of Fascism, since the latter is a highly socialist and xenophobic doctrine, whilst Thatcherism is the ultimate in market-driven free trade capitalism.

What you mean is a) Fascism has a very bad reputation b) you strongly disapprove of Margaret Thatcher despite the numerous and obvious benefits which her ministry bestowed on this country and c) you have no qualms about drawing completely false analogies in order to make what is by now a really rather tired and failed argument.

or maybe i imagined all that social unrest

Yes, it hurt. Yes, it worked.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.[;)]

...

Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...

The skull & crossbones symbol was certainly not exclusive to the SS "Death's Head" Div. WW1-era German Hussars, WW2 German Army (non-SS) Armored Troops, US Navy Fighter Squadron VF-17 "Jolly Rogers", not to mention pirates throught the ages and a certain shadowy fraternity in a prominent US Ivy League university all use(d) more or less the same symbol...[:'(]




There's one of these in the air museum at the Willow Grove NAS just a few miles down the road from me!

Guys, while I applaud the civility that this thread has shown, so far, remember that the discussion of current political events is one of the taboo subjects here at Matrix. Let's keep the topic strictly on topic so I don't have to lock down a second thread in a week. There are other web sites where that type of discussion are more appropriate.

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.

Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?

It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

That will just go over reallll smooth in world opinion not to mention the history books no?

It won´t matter if they´re ¨bunker buster¨ nukes or whatever. You use the word ¨Nuclear Attack¨ and that´s all that needs to be said. The rest is just trimmings. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Ike99


...
It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

No comment.

No comment.

Can you imagine some sort of accident, the warhead doesn´t penetrate or something? Big mushroom cloud blasted across every TV screen in the world 10,000 times. [X(]

Holy Jesus.

¨oops sorry... , ehhh...just remember where here to free you and plant democracy.¨ [8|]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

In modern Hinduism the 'Swastik' as it's called there, is considered the sun symbol of somekind... (I could be mixing things here).

This is the origin (more or less) of the symbol. Hitler borrowed it from Indian Aryan civilisation.

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...

Why not? It just worries me that some people don't feel that they should be trusted to see Nazi symbolism in case they become magically brainwashed. It seems like an extension of the theory that the Germans were completely innocent and were just under the control of a handful of super-evil Nazis.

...I take a more sympathetic view of it than that. After all, you wouldn't encourage a reformed alcoholic to keep a full liquor cabinet.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.

Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?

It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

That will just go over reallll smooth in world opinion not to mention the history books no?

It won´t matter if they´re ¨bunker buster¨ nukes or whatever. You use the word ¨Nuclear Attack¨ and that´s all that needs to be said. The rest is just trimmings. [:D]

Bush isn't going to do anything to Iran. He hasn't got the political capital any more. Spent it all in Iraq.

..I take a more sympathetic view of it than that. After all, you wouldn't encourage a reformed alcoholic to keep a full liquor cabinet.

[:D][:D][:D]Colin, someone just doesn´t trust the Germans much do they! [:D][:D][:D]

What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.
 
We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.
 
My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"
 
 

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.[;)]

LeMay et al weren't just killing Japanese because this was seen as a good in itself -- as the Germans were when they were killing the Jews.

And how many peasants were killed in Vietnam from US B52 saturation bombings in the densely populated Meking Delta and its purpose was....what? If there was a military objective to it I haven´t discovered it.

I think with a bit of thought you'll realize the inaccuracy of this analogy. Whatever one might say about the military effectiveness or purpose of B-52 strikes on North Vietnam, it'd be a real stretch to argue that we carried them out because we thought that killing Vietnamese peasants was per se a good thing. Rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally, we thought of the raids as a means to the end of compelling North Vietnam to cease its attacks upon South Vietnam. The Germans did not kill Jews to get the US to make peace, Russia to make peace, or as a means to any other goal distinct from the murder itself. Killing Jews was an end in itself. This is where the comparison with the Holocaust really breaks down.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Yeah -- but here in America, there's no real danger that we're going to become a genocidal fascist dictatorship.

(cough)
waterboarding
(cough)
Neocon Agenda
(cough)
Quantonimo Bay
(cough)
WMDs
(cough)
(cough)
Iraq
(cough)
Abu Gharib
(cough)
Fox News
(cough)
A New American Century
(cough)
secret prisons
(cough)

Wake up and smell the fascism mate. But as far as wargames go the symbols are non political and are only for historical purposes.

I'm waking up -- but I'm not smelling the fascism.

One could easily compile similar lists for other countries. The massacre of Algerian protestors in France in the late fifties. The program of chemical sterilization (or whatever) for genetic defectives in Sweden in the sixties.

A few political actions you disagree with do not a fascist state make. In any case, there's nothing fascist at all about at least two-thirds of the items on your list.

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

What we do when we wargame is re-create events from the past with OOB's as accurate as they can get.
IMHO the use of SS rhunes is part of that, just like NKVD units.

We all have common sense to aknowledge the wrong which was done by such and such.

My mom, who lived through the occupation from 1940-1944 is not shocked by seeing swastikas depicted in movies, wargames and model airplanes. In her words "That was part of the stuff what was going on"

I agree. Some designers are very devoted to maximizing the historical accuracy of their scenarios, even to the extent of using native language formation and unit designations - e.g., 8 gv.OA = 8 Gvardeiskii Obshchevoiskovaia Armiia (Soviet 8th Guards Combined Arms Army). There's even a designer of Vietnam scenarios, 'Boonierat' IIRC, who successfully managed to embed period accurate unit patches (1st Cav horsey, 101st AB screaming eagle/chicken, etc.) into his unit icons. Anything that enhances historical accuracy is ok in my book.

I don't think designating WW2-era SS units with their infamous runes in TOAW glorifies Naziism or anything like that. Consider the richly-deserved fate of most of these SS formations/units in historically accurate late-WW2 scenarios: ground to pieces by massed Soviet forces, interdicted into oblivion by overwhelming Allied airpower, etc. No glory there...wouldn't you agree?

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

Consider the richly-deserved fate of most of these SS formations/units in historically accurate late-WW2 scenarios: ground to pieces by massed Soviet forces, interdicted into oblivion by overwhelming Allied airpower, etc. No glory there...wouldn't you agree?

Gotta point out that glory usually comes with fighting against overwhelming odds. If anything, stands such as 12th SS 'Hitler Jugend''s stand at Caen are what make the mystique of the Waffen SS -- not romping through Yugoslavia in 1941.