Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: MrMox

@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it... [:)]

If Vista is so grand, then Dell would not be offering Vista or XP as choices. When XP came out, you could NOT order a PC built with W98. I think a lot of gamers that bought Vista will go back to XP. [:)] I put Vista down there with the Millenium edition. [:(]

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm just making the observation that Vista's market share is going to increase and XP's market share similarly is going to decrease. Sure, XP may hold a significant share at the moment, and a lot of people may stay with XP for a long time to come, but bottom line is that you shouldn't hedge your business on XP and ignore Vista, unless you want to see your customer base dwindle over time.

ORIGINAL: MrMox

Isn't this just a case of File Virtualization? http://www.hanselman.com/blog/VistasShowCompatibilityFilesAndTheScrumptiousWonderThatIsFileVirtualization.aspx

Thanks. I had a feeling that was what the issue was, but I couldn't remember exactly what it was. Again, not being an early adopter of Vista, I saw the problem listed on some tech site, and simply made a brief mental note of it, rather than committing it to memory.

I guess at this point, if I were to gloat and be petty, this would call for a well-deserved "I told you so..."...[;)]

Good thing I would never do that...[:D]

ORIGINAL: MrMox
@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it... [:)]

Ford salesmen said the same thing about the Edsel. Fortunately though, Ford never had anything close to the same level of monopoly that Microsoft has over the PC OS market, and the consumers proved them wrong.

ORIGINAL: MrMox

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm just making the observation that Vista's market share is going to increase and XP's market share similarly is going to decrease. Sure, XP may hold a significant share at the moment, and a lot of people may stay with XP for a long time to come, but bottom line is that you shouldn't hedge your business on XP and ignore Vista, unless you want to see your customer base dwindle over time.

I never missed your point, I inderstood you entirely. I was just bringing another issue to light, which is I believe Vista will fall back like ME did and XP will continue to be the choice like W98 also did.

You are very much correct in saying that a company like Matrix better make room for Vista. I would never disagree with that. I wasn't trying to argue in the first place, never would. [:)] [:)]

Case in point:
fb.asp?m=1623301

@ Everyone, I understood there are workarounds and/or bandaids to this issue. Not to mention the simplest of which is to reinstall the game into a non Program Files path (Though I haven't tried it I'm positive it would work). That's not the point.

The point is those are all things I should have to do for a Windows XP game not stated to be Vista Compatible. I wouldn't complain then and I have dealt with all of the above items for other games and applications as I've been running Vista for over a year now on all 4 of my machines.

But again, really here I just want to harp on the Matrix default installation path. Had it been correct, this issue however major or minor would have been caught, and users would be free to install the game anywhere default or otherwise without error.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hey Veldor,

We'll check into this - as far as the installation path, yes Microsoft has recommended /Program Files for years, but using a different one has never been an issue (apparently until Vista).

Yes, it has been the recommendation since Windows 95 which was over a decade ago. [:D]
But to be clear, using a different installation path other than /Program Files, isn't actually a problem with Vista. It's only a problem because then your not forced to test compatibility with where Applications and Games are supposed to go. Installing into that directory (/Program Files) is actually then the problem for some of your games. My new machines have one gigantic C-Drive and I install everything to /Program Files since thats where 99% of it installs to begin with. It also keeps the root tidy instead of having hundreds of vendor directories there.

Frankly, we've found Vista to be annoying in more than a few respects, not the least of which are incompatibilities or bugs cause because Microsoft either left out something harmless that was in XP or just arbitrarily changed how they dealt with something. We're working to make sure we have full compatibility in the future.

The best way to achieve that, IMHO, is to develop the games on Vista. Backwards compatibility between Vista and XP is far far easier than forwards compatibility from XP to Vista. This is furthermore the case because many of your developers (I know of at least one) are already using tools that are technically obsolete from an XP standpoint so the likelihood of error is even greater then. By running development software and packaging tools made for Vista you maximize compatibility.

We have one Vista test system which we check all our new releases on, we'll double check this issue there and resolve it together with Vic if we can.

In a perfect world the developers would each have their own Vista test system.

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
I'm not moving to Vista until the bitter end and nothing "They" can do will speed that process up. Get used to it Vista sucks for gaming...[:'(]

Keep up the good work Matrix![&o]

You do realize I'm mostly nit-picking here. I've never thought Vista sucks for gaming. That is an attitude mostly held by those that don't run it and unless you've actually tried it your just further propagating a baseless statement. There was an initial learning curve but now there are at least a dozen things I love about Vista that make it impossible for me to ever go back to XP. I run hundreds of games and applications on Vista just fine.

The issues here don't really affect my ability to RUN the game and certainly aren't stability related. They are simply annoyances that extend even to other areas like inability to easily browse to the files, search for the files, backup the files through certain methods, etc. I do think a program stated to be compatible should allow me to install to the PF dir and still have those 3 functions work as normal.

@ Anyone: If you take any of this as further proof to stay away from Vista, or even to not purchase Advanced Tactics if you run Vista, then you are seriously misreading the thread IMHO and missing out on what has rapidly become my most favorite game.

It'd be interesting to know what percentage of Matrix Customers run Vista currently. I somehow have the feeling not that many, though I do think its much more prevelant out in the rest of the world than some wish to admit.

Veldor,

You are probably more right than I am and probably even more qualified than I am to comment properly on these things. What I wrote is true in that I'll not change to Vista for some time as I can't see any advantage to it for what I do with my home PC. It's also probably a little of my "Old Man hates change" coming out as I finally have everything working perfectly on my PC and don't have the patients of my youth anymore to redo it all again....

I completely agree that having Vista should not keep anyone form getting this great game![8D]

ORIGINAL: MrMox

Isn't this just a case of File Virtualization? http://www.hanselman.com/blog/VistasShowCompatibilityFilesAndTheScrumptiousWonderThatIsFileVirtualization.aspx

@Veldor: Have you tried to click on "Compatibility Files" in Windows Explorer?

@MatrixGames: You may consider Vista to be annoying, buggy and incompatible but your customer base will be moving towards Vista - get used to it... [:)]

Yes if you read back in the thread you'll see I already mentioned that. As for the click option, it doesn't show up in Outlook which is the real issue here. Sending and Recieving my PBEM turn files. I am running the latest Outlook version which doesn't allow for access to the Virtual Store in any way (Probably for security reasons).

So again just an annoyance I either have to go to lengths to load/save my games elsewhere and/or skip through hoops with the default save location in order to get them into an email.

@ MATRIX:

BTW just to keep up the Vista nitpicks.. In your Vista testing how did you possibly miss the Vista UAC popup right when you start the game (Vista User Access Control) warning that an unidentified program wants access?

Hornet Leader, for example, is setup with the same basic initial menu structure and does not give that popup error.

Granted, its just a small delay and one click, but again its tacky for a program claiming Vista Compatibility... [:-]

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Yes, it has been the recommendation since Windows 95 which was over a decade ago. [:D]
But to be clear, using a different installation path other than /Program Files, isn't actually a problem with Vista. It's only a problem because then your not forced to test compatibility with where Applications and Games are supposed to go. Installing into that directory (/Program Files) is actually then the problem for some of your games. My new machines have one gigantic C-Drive and I install everything to /Program Files since thats where 99% of it installs to begin with. It also keeps the root tidy instead of having hundreds of vendor directories there.

Yep, I understand that, which is precisely why it wasn't caught.

The best way to achieve that, IMHO, is to develop the games on Vista. Backwards compatibility between Vista and XP is far far easier than forwards compatibility from XP to Vista. This is furthermore the case because many of your developers (I know of at least one) are already using tools that are technically obsolete from an XP standpoint so the likelihood of error is even greater then. By running development software and packaging tools made for Vista you maximize compatibility.

Vista is definitely where things are heading, but it's currently a small share of the market, particularly for wargamers. Secondly, we have games coming out now that have been in development for YEARS before Vista even existed in public beta form, so that was hardly an option.

In a perfect world the developers would each have their own Vista test system.

That perfect world unfortunately doesn't exist in a niche market like wargaming. A few developers do have Vista systems now, for the rest we do the Vista testing until that is possible.

Regards,

- Erik

Veldor,

How would you like to volunteer as a Vista Compatibility Tester? [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Veldor,

How would you like to volunteer as a Vista Compatibility Tester? [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

Sure thing, you can start by signing me up for the Lock 'n Load beta, no free copy needed (Though I won't turn down free games, money, or all expense paid trips to the caribbean should you offer them) ... [;)]

As for AT thus far I've seen no Vista issues in all my playing outside of those mentioned above.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Veldor,

How would you like to volunteer as a Vista Compatibility Tester? [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, I just sent you the most unbelievably long PM and it said your box was full.

Since the window closed I lost the message (doh!).

Perhaps you could PM me an email address?

Veldor

Argh, it must have just filled up. You can e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com, sorry about that.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Argh, it must have just filled up. You can e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com, sorry about that.

You mean again, don't you? [:D] It was full, just two days ago, when I sent you that email for help in the TOAW III support forum. I had the same problem Veldor did in having my message disappear after the full inbox notice.

On that note, wouldn't it be so much less frustrating to users if the forum PM software made a quick check to see if there is room in the recipient's Inbox before they draft the message? Or, perhaps allow a browser's back button to go back to the message, rather than a refreshed page?

I suspect that Matrix and Vic would better leave that issue unattended and wait for MS to remove such bugs from Vista - because invisible files in the navigator are just that, whatever funcky "standards" about file locations can MS claim to have designed last night.
I' d recommend anyone to wait at least 2 years after release of an MS OS to switch to it (when SP2 is ready [:D]). Personnaly I've even used W98 up to 2005...

ORIGINAL: Veldor
As for the click option, it doesn't show up in Outlook which is the real issue here. Sending and Recieving my PBEM turn files. I am running the latest Outlook version which doesn't allow for access to the Virtual Store in any way (Probably for security reasons).

Create a shortcut to the Virtual Store in your home directory, and use the shortcut from within Outlook to access the Virtual Store - would that work, or does Outlook block access to AppData altogether?

ORIGINAL: Veldor
BTW just to keep up the Vista nitpicks.. In your Vista testing how did you possibly miss the Vista UAC popup right when you start the game (Vista User Access Control) warning that an unidentified program wants access?

Yeah, it's a bother. I ended up with this solution.