Page 2 of 7

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:00 pm
by Jimmer
ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Minor Country Improved Morale with training. (Yours truly wrote his MA thesis on this little matter for the Portuguese. Moreover, I have had some first hand exposure to training/modernizing certain armies myself.) The old AH rules allowed for an optional rule the Brits to improve the Portuguese and the Hanoverians to a 4.0 morale with 24 months of continuous training. I would love to see other nations have the option of training them as well to say 0.5 below their own morale. So the French to 3.5 and the Spanish et alias to 2.5. I would expand this to other nations as well up to a certain limit. I would allow the gaming group to select what countries (say Holland, Denmark for example) could be trained and to what level and by whom.
If this were allowed for other corps, perhaps it would be good to say that the sponsoring power can only train one or two minors at a time. This would greatly limit the game change that might happen.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:09 pm
by Mardonius
Good thought. Might want to give a bonus to certain nations (dominant powers, e.g. France and Britain) etc. Others maybe only one nation at a time.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:10 pm
by Jimmer
ORIGINAL: Grimrod42

Read Soapy Frogs post ...
fix the basic non optional version of the game
then maybe someday if that gets done then maybe add in these made up "House rules"
This discussion seems to me to distract from what is actually important.
His post asks "What is it going to cost?", not whether they are good ideas or not. You are responding to the wrong question.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:13 pm
by Jimmer
ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Hi Lads:

I think my intended points won't be able to be conveyed or put in their proper context to a considerable portion of our already rarified audience in the near future. However, I would like to revist them after the first three or so patches.... but readers must promise to have a couple of beers first to induce creativity. At that point I reckon that we will all be a little bit more amenable to the concept of house rules.
Ummmmm, can I substitute Moutain Dew? I'm somewhat of a teetotaler.

I'll drink extra, if needed. [X(][8D]

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:17 pm
by Jimmer
ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Good thought. Might want to give a bonus to certain nations (dominant powers, e.g. France and Britain) etc. Others maybe only one nation at a time.
Oh, EXCELLENT idea! I like that a lot. Maybe the time is always the same, but the amount you pay changes depending on your political status.

Or, you get time credits each month you are at the various status points, but the $ is fixed. Say, it requires 120 credit-months, and you get 2, 3, 4, or 5, depending on the zone you are in. If you were dominant the whole time, you would get it done in 24 months. But, if you slipped, it would take longer (and, cost more, since you pay every month or quarter).

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:22 pm
by Mardonius
Mountain Dew will do... [:)]

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:28 am
by Killerduck
Personally, I think more optional rules is a great idea. The more the merrier! You still dont have to play with any of them, if you dont like them....

Heck, everyone playing EiA FtF plays with houserules on some form of another. And I am used to playing with a lot [:D]

Scenario editor! Game master option! (editing as you play) Trust me Marshall, Game master option will be a huge success... and will rake in cash [;)]


RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:59 am
by bresh
I prefer fixes/changes that get EIANW closer to EIA.
And the list is still long to do that. 

But as long as those additions are OPTIONAL, and dont create cheats in a normal pbm game, i would not mind it added. 

Regards
Bresh

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:26 pm
by Murat
Every group has their own set of house rules. If Marshall puts them all in we will be selecting from 200 or so options in every game.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:01 pm
by Jimmer
ORIGINAL: Murat

Every group has their own set of house rules. If Marshall puts them all in we will be selecting from 200 or so options in every game.
This wouldn't be a problem to me. As long as there is a "reset to default" capability.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:25 am
by Mardonius
Hello Lads.

Been a while since I have revisited my favorite topic. And, of course, it is just a coincidence that I wrote the initial postings.
Now that we are onto version 3.0 and we have made lots of improvements to game play, I would like to put these ideas back in front of us all (Marshall, that means you :)) for POTENTIAL scenario editor options. Obviously, this list is by no means all-inclusive. My purpose here is not to ram these ideas down anyone's throat. Rather, it is to bring up the concept of a scenario editor and, perhaps the inclusion of game options that can allow a game to be tailored to a particular groups preferences.

From my original post:

I was wondering how hard it would be to recreate through some creative programming (Bless you, Marshall!) some nifty house rules that we used to employ. For all those Grognards who may be saying harrumph, please note that all I suggest should be optional so if ya don't like it, just don't use it. And remember what happened to the old style armies at Valmy...

How hard would these be to program?

Minor Country Improved Morale with training. (Yours truly wrote his MA thesis on this little matter for the Portuguese. Moreover, I have had some first hand exposure to training/modernizing certain armies myself.) The old AH rules allowed for an optional rule the Brits to improve the Portuguese and the Hanoverians to a 4.0 morale with 24 months of continuous training. I would love to see other nations have the option of training them as well to say 0.5 below their own morale. So the French to 3.5 and the Spanish et alias to 2.5. I would expand this to other nations as well up to a certain limit. I would allow the gaming group to select what countries (say Holland, Denmark for example) could be trained and to what level and by whom.

Increased Corps Size. Allow nations to spend money and time to increase certain of their Corps. Must be in a step function and within reason.

Increase number of corps a nation can produce. Start with their smallest and perhaps could be improved as noted above.
Could apply to some minors as well.

Increase number of depots with expenditures of time and money.

Increase number of fleets with expenditures of time and money.

Allow certain minors (e.g. North Africa) to build light fleets.

Improve fortifications or harbor guns with expenditure of time/money.

I would also consider having a portion of the Privateer monies go to the privateering state. This was the common practice of the day.

added option not from original post: limit use of North African Manpower to the Turks as no other power was able to use their manpower despite repeated occupations

added option: not from original post: Increase guerrilla geographies to reflect historical realities (Portugal, Naples, Sicily, much of North Africa)

Semper Fi
Mardonius

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:56 am
by Edfactor
I read the first page of this discussion and i think one point was never made, that it would be pretty hard to do this for you. It would take many hours of programming and just not be worth the effort to do.

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:20 pm
by MarshallEllis
ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Hello Lads.

Been a while since I have revisited my favorite topic. And, of course, it is just a coincidence that I wrote the initial postings.
Now that we are onto version 3.0 and we have made lots of improvements to game play, I would like to put these ideas back in front of us all (Marshall, that means you :)) for POTENTIAL scenario editor options. Obviously, this list is by no means all-inclusive. My purpose here is not to ram these ideas down anyone's throat. Rather, it is to bring up the concept of a scenario editor and, perhaps the inclusion of game options that can allow a game to be tailored to a particular groups preferences.

From my original post:

I was wondering how hard it would be to recreate through some creative programming (Bless you, Marshall!) some nifty house rules that we used to employ. For all those Grognards who may be saying harrumph, please note that all I suggest should be optional so if ya don't like it, just don't use it. And remember what happened to the old style armies at Valmy...

How hard would these be to program?

Minor Country Improved Morale with training. (Yours truly wrote his MA thesis on this little matter for the Portuguese. Moreover, I have had some first hand exposure to training/modernizing certain armies myself.) The old AH rules allowed for an optional rule the Brits to improve the Portuguese and the Hanoverians to a 4.0 morale with 24 months of continuous training. I would love to see other nations have the option of training them as well to say 0.5 below their own morale. So the French to 3.5 and the Spanish et alias to 2.5. I would expand this to other nations as well up to a certain limit. I would allow the gaming group to select what countries (say Holland, Denmark for example) could be trained and to what level and by whom.

Increased Corps Size. Allow nations to spend money and time to increase certain of their Corps. Must be in a step function and within reason.

Increase number of corps a nation can produce. Start with their smallest and perhaps could be improved as noted above.
Could apply to some minors as well.

Increase number of depots with expenditures of time and money.

Increase number of fleets with expenditures of time and money.

Allow certain minors (e.g. North Africa) to build light fleets.

Improve fortifications or harbor guns with expenditure of time/money.

I would also consider having a portion of the Privateer monies go to the privateering state. This was the common practice of the day.

added option not from original post: limit use of North African Manpower to the Turks as no other power was able to use their manpower despite repeated occupations

added option: not from original post: Increase guerrilla geographies to reflect historical realities (Portugal, Naples, Sicily, much of North Africa)

Semper Fi
Mardonius


Many of these things would not be hard to do and in fact are pretty interesting ideas!
My biggest problem with some items might be the changing of the map data so that port gun / fortification values are are not hard coded on the map but written by me since they would be dynamic.

Appreciate the input.


RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:03 pm
by Mardonius
Great to hear Marshall.

You have a refreshing attitude for someone who has been such repeated waterboardings. [:D]

For what it is worth, if I were the one who was assuming this task list, I would try and do the easier things first. If some things like fortress/port gun values are harder to do, I would leave those items for later, perhaps after some smart folks (e.g. Del/Jimmer) had chimed in on possible ways to do so.

Anyway, I love to see some of these things in 1.04 or 1.05.

Semper Fidelis,

Mardonius aka "the Mad Sultan"

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm
by bresh
Just, try to make the game more EIA.
Including the EIA optinal rules should have the higher priority.

Before adding houserules.
Some that could makes the game something far from the EIA, players are requesting.

Regards
Bresh


RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:13 pm
by AresMars
Bresh, I agree - more like EIA FIRST....chrome, MAYBE later. 

There is enough EIA (Engaged in Argument) between the AI and PBEM camps....


RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:12 pm
by NeverMan
Yes, I also agree. It would be really nice to sit down and play my Empires in Arms PC game and ACTUALLY be able to play EMPIRES IN ARMS..... WOW, what a concept!!

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 am
by Mardonius
Gents:

I respect what you three are saying. And I have been there. I have played EiA since 1987. This noted, we are in the real world and if we want to make this product viable it has to have a broad appeal. That means it has to appeal to more than just a few EiA purists.

Much of what makes a game a success is vigorous enjoyment by those who are playing the game. To this end, if we want to provide for EiANW to be a success it should be fun, varied, and not be bound by pre-ordained EiA fundamentalist strictures. We should not be nay-saying potential new ideas just because they are not board game version EiA. Otherwise, we will find ourselves, eventually, with that close to EiA clone game when we are all sitting in the nursing home and we will be the only ones who will have any interest in playing it. Pinochle anyone?

Marshall has commented that many of these OPTIONs would not be that hard to program. So if you want to try and recapture that elusive goal of 1985 Avalon Hill/ADG's Board Game version of EiA, you could just turn off these options. So where is the objection to pursuing these -- or perhaps other better -- options? Do we want to continue to bang our heads around to try and get a perfect AI? I don't think a challenging AI is obtainable anytime soon.

Del and others are slogging away assiduously on fixing the intricacies of the program as it is. There is only so much that they can do to make very marginal improvements. If there is little cost in making significant OPTIONAL variations, then why not do so?

And by the way, I don't object to anyone shooting down my ideas because they are ill thought out... that kind of criticism can have merit. But to try and take a Polaroid of EiA in 1985 and say "That is what I want and no different"... well that is not going to create a marketable and sustainable product.

Semper Fidelis,

Mardonius

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:49 am
by AresMars
Mardonius,
 
I have no objection to additional changes and options being added in the future, in fact I would also be interested in them, however, at the moment, I bought a product the suggested that I would be able to play Empires In Arms by E-mail with my friends and other people on the Internet.
 
EIANW is striving to filll that need (and its commitment) and I can be patient and wait while Marshall moves towards it.  On this, I feel that Martix is working hard on this.
 
Your broad appeal comment, though valid, does not apply to any of the people who I know that bought the game for the same reason I did....to play EIA online..... 
 
With this in mind, our group of friends (perhaps EIA purists) are more likely the MANY then the few you alude to have as much right to request that our interests be kept focused on.
 
I have not seen a large demand for CHROME OPTIONS (my words) except from you (as seen in this thread), and though I respect the positive attutude that Marshall displayed in his response, and your obvious desire to see increased options, I remain focused on what was already PROMISED by Matrix....
 
Once the EIA PURISTS are satisfied, and once the AI CAMP are satisfied, then perhaps the additional OPTIONS camp will be able to make requests.....
 
At the moment, the PURISTS/PBEM and AI groups seem to be the largest number of forum commentators...
 
IMHO, I was not shooting down your ideas, and I agree that the CHROME comment was unnecessary, I was agreeing with the comments Bresh made.
 
 

RE: Revolutionary Thoughts

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:00 pm
by pzgndr
There is enough EIA (Engaged in Argument) between the AI and PBEM camps....

Frankly there is more than enough, and it has become downright juvenile. Marshall and Matrix appear to be "on track" and committed to providing a quality game that should eventually satisfy most everyone - PBEM, TCP/IP, AI/solitaire, EiA purists, EiH variants, options, etc., etc., etc. Let these guys work.

I refuse to waste any more time arguing with the few who seem to insist that their pet rock feature gets priority over someone else's feature. Marshall and Matrix are doing OK and I'll be patient while the bug tracker list is slowly and surely worked off. If it takes another year, so be it. [:)]