Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

I wouldn't put my hopes up on AI with user created scenarios, I still think it is the same problem of a complicated un-documented AI that requires to much time, effort and understanding that the people who make the scenarios don't have the time or interest in investing in. I asked about the AI documentation in the Editor Guide that Eric keeps pumping and got no response [:(]

Yes there is a well documented editor guide included, 38 pages I believe, however as you surmised the section for the AI is blank and the reader is referred to the forums. I can see that using the editor would still require a lot of time and effort, I only ever attempted to use it with BiN and soon abandoned my efforts. I don't hold it against SSG, afterall they are creating well crafted battles with a myriad of options and parameters that go into an operational battle to give the desired overall effect. Hats off to them and to the few people actually making scenarios with this system. Could it be made simpler and still have the wealth of detail? I don't know.

ORIGINAL: Ron


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Yes there is a well documented editor guide included, 38 pages I believe, however as you surmised the section for the AI is blank and the reader is referred to the forums.

This is why I have not taken the plunge and purchased this game. I have several of their previous titles and really like the system. However, they did the same thing with Battlefront. I designed a scenario for Battlefront and pretty much shelfed it because I could not program the editor (it is like 95% complete except for an AI). Battlefront's manual referred you to the forum on instructions for programming the ai. There was nothing on the forum. I asked some questions trying to get some discussion and guidance from SSG, but got very little back. Their attitude was that very few people would be interested in a AI guide to merit their time. However, every scenario that got released was critized by the community for a lack of an AI. Most of the blame went towards the scenario designers, but it was not their fault. Without a guide, it is next to impossible to program.

I am not trying to be negative. I have kept fairly guiet not trying to seem like I dumping on SSG and this game. It is a very good system and I really like Battlefront. But once the title is released, SSG seem to move on when there are things (like and ai guide and other helps in constructing scenarios) that could really add this system and keep these games going and then grow their popularity. It was all the scenarios for BII that made me decide to purchase that title. The same needs to happen for this one.

Sorry guys, I thought some AI documentation would be available. I will check back with SSG and see what we can do, I completely understand that this is a requirement for some designers/players.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Sorry guys, I thought some AI documentation would be available. I will check back with SSG and see what we can do, I completely understand that this is a requirement for some designers/players.

I have already finished an edit of the existing Editor Manual to pick of any omissions and catch any additions made to the database late in the development process.

I'm now working on new sections, which will include tutorial elements, to deal with Areas of Operations and the AI. I realise that in an ideal world these would have been finished sooner, and I apologise fr the delay, but I felt that taking extra time would allow a much more comprehensive approach. I also figured that even the keenest scenario creator would need a week or two to actually play the game and familiarise themselves with the system before embarking on a scenario.

We are determined to give all possible assistance to scenario creators. Any questions asked here, or the ssg forums or emailed to support@ssg.com.au will be given detailed answers and we will do our best to fill in any gaps in the documentation.

Gregor

... and there you go. I thought something was in the works, thanks for clearing that up, Gregor!

Ok, those of you who were fence-sitting for AI documentation, it's on the way. [8D]

Maybe this can be commented on:

"The AI programming is complex and from what I can see I also need a special AI scripting program."

From:

http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4661

That's from an independent scenario designer, right? Hopefully when the AI documentation is released then programming the AI will seem less arcane. I think folks who designed scenarios for BF commented that figuring out how to program the AI was a bit of an enigma. With any luck, the documentation Gregor is working on will clear that up.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's from an independent scenario designer, right? Hopefully when the AI documentation is released then programming the AI will seem less arcane. I think folks who designed scenarios for BF commented that figuring out how to program the AI was a bit of an enigma. With any luck, the documentation Gregor is working on will clear that up.

correct, he makes some great looking scenarios that if I think an AI could be done would go a long way to help supporting SSG and their titles and really help alleviate concerns about lack of scenarios.

There is no special AI scripting program, everything you need is in the Editor. There are the equivalent of AI scripts, but they are mostly used for specialised tasks at the start of the game. For instance, the Russians in Kharkov are faced with a wall of German strongpoints. It's very useful to be able to tell the AI, on the first turn, which strongpoints should be hit with artillery fire. After that, the system can work things out for itself.

Gregor

I picked this game up myself recently.  I find it a beautiful job and just love the map work.  Call me strange but I like the musical score also which in most games I quickly shut off but so far not this one.   [8D]
 
I find the new Area of Op's to really add a great dimension/realism to the gaming factor and so far have just done Historical but can imagine the added tension Mystery Op would add. 
 
I just find this new version a nice combination of both the previous series good features and dropping what didn't work/confusing before.
 
Guys I had my reluctance on this one also for $ versus one scenerio.  But this one scenario is complex/time consuming for each turn and I have only tried the German's so far (restarted already after the AI abused me).  I suspect Russians may take more time per turn as well.  I too was a little disappointed with the BF series, as some were, but Kharkov changed all that around for me and in my opinion Kharkov is SSG's best effort to date.

Sounds great! I've been reading the comments, and the game itself sounds great but still can't shed my reservations until I see more evidence that this won't be shelved after a couple of months or however long it takes to finish the 16 turns from both sides. I don't have the time or inclination for PBEM at the moment, so that's not a factor.

I'm still sitting on the fence and will continue to do so until at least one extra scenario shows up with AI play or the promised documentation for scenario designers to program the AI becomes available. Like I say, it's not the game that's delaying my purchase at the moment.

Regards,

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

I picked this game up myself recently. I find it a beautiful job and just love the map work. Call me strange but I like the musical score also which in most games I quickly shut off but so far not this one. [8D]

I find the new Area of Op's to really add a great dimension/realism to the gaming factor and so far have just done Historical but can imagine the added tension Mystery Op would add.

I just find this new version a nice combination of both the previous series good features and dropping what didn't work/confusing before.

Guys I had my reluctance on this one also for $ versus one scenerio. But this one scenario is complex/time consuming for each turn and I have only tried the German's so far (restarted already after the AI abused me). I suspect Russians may take more time per turn as well. I too was a little disappointed with the BF series, as some were, but Kharkov changed all that around for me and in my opinion Kharkov is SSG's best effort to date.

I'm glad that you like the music, its by Chris Merchant one of our testers/supporters who did a lot of the hard work om improving the manual and was responsible for all of the layout work as well. He's a multi-talented guy.

As for AI abuse, the AI often abuses me, even though I've had plenty of experience in playing against it. What I find annoying is its ability to sniff out the dodgy deployments you were forced to make and were hoping to get away with. Not only does it sniff it out and assault your men but it also does an excellent job of using its artillery to pick the retreating units that might have survived the first assault.

Gregor

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

I picked this game up myself recently. I find it a beautiful job and just love the map work. Call me strange but I like the musical score also which in most games I quickly shut off but so far not this one. [8D]

I find the new Area of Op's to really add a great dimension/realism to the gaming factor and so far have just done Historical but can imagine the added tension Mystery Op would add.

I just find this new version a nice combination of both the previous series good features and dropping what didn't work/confusing before.

Guys I had my reluctance on this one also for $ versus one scenerio. But this one scenario is complex/time consuming for each turn and I have only tried the German's so far (restarted already after the AI abused me). I suspect Russians may take more time per turn as well. I too was a little disappointed with the BF series, as some were, but Kharkov changed all that around for me and in my opinion Kharkov is SSG's best effort to date.

I'm glad that you like the music, its by Chris Merchant one of our testers/supporters who did a lot of the hard work om improving the manual and was responsible for all of the layout work as well. He's a multi-talented guy.

As for AI abuse, the AI often abuses me, even though I've had plenty of experience in playing against it. What I find annoying is its ability to sniff out the dodgy deployments you were forced to make and were hoping to get away with. Not only does it sniff it out and assault your men but it also does an excellent job of using its artillery to pick the retreating units that might have survived the first assault.

Gregor

Hats off to the whole team and I do really like the score too. Though sometimes I shut it off and listen to The Doors too. [:D]

 
Just got this a few days ago and in my opinion Kharkov is one of the best wargames that I've ever played. It's a big improvement from the DB series I never tried BF. The AI is very challenging to play against. I'm glad that I decided to get this one.
 

Thanks, I hope this helps those folks who are on the fence decide to jump off and give this a try. It's a well-polished, well-designed wargame and has good bang for the buck.