Matrix Games Forums

Sorry, slipped up. Wrong numbers. Trouble is, the difference between normal G and 10 G is a hundred times the difference between 0.1G and 1G. I'll think about it a bit.

If you simply use a multiplier of G to correct the speed you get odd effects. Say you want the speed halved at 10G, but normal at normal G. If you use a simple, straight-line relationship, then the corresponding value of speed at 0.1G is only 1 and one-thiry-sixth times normal.
If it's not too late, I'd ignore G in the first release of WS, and spend a bit of time sorting out the complications and beta testing.

My last word ... if you're lucky. Rather than calculating adjustments: if WS has arenas with a specific number of Gs, rather than simply variable between 0.1 and 9.9, use a look-up table, with lines of appropriate adjustments for each G, for skills, ranges, etc.
You can choose whatever suits you, rather than waht might be "realistic" ... but I still think this is something for a later version of the game, to give you time to make sure the effects aren't too troublesome.

Double speed for a recon is 300kph... any impact at that speed should be disastrous. Steering (with stick, in recons) is very complicated, dodging virtually impossible. Running through a forest is an adventure. Running downhill will further increase your speed. Entering water at run speed should prove fun <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Maybe speed shouldn't be increased in any circumstance. Decreased in heavy G doesn't present so many problems, but maybe the speed in normal G should be sort of a speed cap. Just an oppinion.

Ok, seems the topic is too complicated to be solved/tested in a short time. So no different gravitations in WS. Maybe later ....

Thanks for the input.

Surely leg speed or cadence rather than gravity govern the speed of any given chassis? How fast can the actuators/pistons move a leg from the back of it&#8217;s stride to the front? That is not going to change in different gravity conditions. The fact that you plonk your Recon on a high-g world doesn&#8217;t suddenly mean that it&#8217;s legs are going to move lots faster. I can understand that it will get more grip in high-g and lose less vertical velocity but you can counter this effect in lower-g by having a low center of gravity and leaning forward as you run &#8211; Titan design skill and Pilot skill.

Standard chassis designs are either optimized for a particular gravity or are built to function efficiently in any reasonable gravity conditions. If the latter then you should encounter specific-gravity designs that aren&#8217;t going to leave their homeworld &#8211; planetary defence forces &#8211; and these should function better than the vanilla ones whilst in their own gravity &#8216;envelope&#8217;. They should also suffer greater penalties as they go towards the opposite pole.

Thinking about it, since weight is a function of gravity then on a low-g world there is more reason to go with the high-weight armours. The chassis can take more &#8216;weight&#8217; but only the same amount of bulk so the other armours with high design weight but low bulk (titanium I think) should be able to provide better armour values for the same mass in a low-g environment. Ideally all designs should be optimized with different armour types for different gravities.

Oh boy! Can-of-worms time.

Grah

Hmm, some misconceptions here. You say titan design and you're talking about chassis design which has absolutely nothing to do with ToS. You talk about weight (and that's the terminology the game uses) and you're really refering to mass (mass and weight are usually the source of a lot of misunderstandings). Yep, can o'worms it is, I'd say. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Yes you're right about the Titan design skill - I should have said chassis design. I am aware of the difference between mass and weight though. The problem is it's very difficult to cram a whole lot of explanation into a small enough space that you don't bore anyone to death. What you gain in brevity you lose in precision!

I tend to agree with Larkin's decision to shelve it, for movement at least, initially.

Weight (as in the physical entity) doesn't apply here, as it is a function of gravity like you said. So what you get is a "heavier" titan in a high G world, but its mass is always the same. The chassis will always support the same amount of armor whatever the gravity. It's bulk and mass that restrict the amount of armor, not weight. Weight is variable, mass is not. So your line of thought on heavier armors is not correct.

Yep. Fell into my own gravity well there <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Okay, Larkin, some simple formulas..

We still want to keep the modifications rather moderate in order to maintain at least a reasonable play balance between .5 and 2 G? Extreme conditions may end up being rather.. well, extreme, but since they're rare (?), who cares?

Most of these formulas contain magic numbers as divisors or multipliers, please feel free to adjust them if you please, these are just my suggestions.

1) BMT at standard PU usage :
BMT * (1 + sqrt(G - 1) / 2 ) (heavy-G)
BMT * (1 + 2*(1 - G)^2 ) (low-G)

Here we obtain 50% penalty to BMT at 2G up to a 150% penalty in 10G. Low-g BMT goes from 162% penalty (0.1 G) to 50% penalty at 0.5G.

2) Min BMT achievable with increasing PU usage :
BMT * (1 - sqrt(G - 1) / 6) (G > 1)
PU * (1 + sqrt(G - 1) / 2) (G > 1)

Note : PU usage should never go below original ratings, so Low-G designs are not possible. Minimal BMT means maximal speed.

BMT formula described here can be used ONLY if a custom-made chassis designed for set gravity conditions is used. So, heavy-G chassis' are made faster, but require constantly more power to use. A chassis designed for 10G would be twice as fast (50% BMT) but requires 7.5 PUs to run there!

Now, what about differing actual gravity conditions?

0.1G - 1G :
BMT : Same BMT as normal chassis (see 1))
PU : non-modified PU usage
1G - designed G rating :
BMT : Instead of getting heavy-G BMT penalties, BMT goes down linearly from unmodified (at 1G) to as stated above (at designed G rating).
PU : Increases from unmodified (at 1G) linearly up to max PU usage (at designed G rating).
designed G rating - 10G :
BMT : Base BMT as stated above, modified by BMT formula in 1) with (actual G - designed G) as the G value.
PU : Max PU usage.

3) Jumping :
Up : Normal jump up time * sqrt(G)
Down : Normal jump down time / sqrt(G)
Forward : Speed unchanged, but each second spent mid-air requires sqrt(G) seconds off the JJs.

Unsquarerooted gravities could also be used, although 40 sec jump up time at 10G seems a bit tough..

4) Weapon ranges & accuracy :
Energy, CC : Mostly unaffected, Hit mod = -1 * MAX(G, 1/G) - 1 if planet has thick atmosphere
Cannons :
RNG = Range / sqrt(sqrt(sqrt(G)))
hit mod = -2 * MAX(G, 1/G) - 2
Guided Missiles :
RNG = Range / sqrt(sqrt(G))
hit mod = 0
Unguided Missiles :
RNG = Range / sqrt(sqrt(G))
hit mod = -3 * MAX(G, 1/G) - 3

5) Skill checks :
Movement skill checks : All modifiers / sqrt(G)
All other skills : Unaffected

6) Engine blasts :
Damage needed for possible one-hex blow-out : 60 * sqrt(G)

I'll add more if I can think of them..

Iceman wrote :

"The chassis will always support the same amount of armor whatever the gravity"

This is absolutely false.

Chassis rigidity is completely independent of gravity. Therefore you could coat a recon with an extra 100mm of Dullaroy and it would still be happily jumping around at 0.1g, because those extra mm would WEIGH practically nothing. Place it under 2G, and even a slightly undertonned recon would snap under the crushing weight.

Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
Iceman wrote :

"The chassis will always support the same amount of armor whatever the gravity"

This is absolutely false.

Chassis rigidity is completely independent of gravity. Therefore you could coat a recon with an extra 100mm of Dullaroy and it would still be happily jumping around at 0.1g, because those extra mm would WEIGH practically nothing. Place it under 2G, and even a slightly undertonned recon would snap under the crushing weight.

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Read what I posted first Jukka, then reply. The capping factor is BULK and MASS, not weight. Where will you put those 100mm extra armor? Tie them with a rope to the titan's foot and drag it along the battlefield? Do me a favor and read things correctly please. And apply them to the game in question and its mechanics. Sheesh.

The missing paragraphs :

7) DfA damage :
Damage = original damage * G

If 10x damage at 10G seems off limits, then go with sqrt(G).

8) Climb rates :
Climb rate = Original / sqrt(sqrt(G))

Hopping up the hills at low-G conditions is right next to simple. Not quite so in Heavy-G. (I still can't believe that ANY titan would have trouble climbing up 16 degree hills..)

One rather disturbing thing I realized after reading the posts by Grah_31 and Iceman : How are we supposed to place our 200-ton Assaults, barely holding up their weight 'as is', on a 10.0g world?? They'd weigh a whopping 2000 tons there.

I would certainly like to see how gravity changed things, but I suppose it's safe to assume that with tomorrow's new materials and engineering skills, a multi-ton metal frame (all the joints included) should easily carry tens, if not hundreds, of its own weight. Having, say, 70t weight limit for light titans wouldn't mean that the chassis couldn't take anymore but it'd be one of the arena rules. Naturally, normal wear and tear under heavy-G circumstances would be astronomically consuming..

Did you take into consideration that the *legs* alone are responsible for supporting *most* of the titan's weight?... How much would you say the legs of a light weight?

Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
One rather disturbing thing I realized after reading the posts by Grah_31 and Iceman : How are we supposed to place our 200-ton Assaults, barely holding up their weight 'as is', on a 10.0g world?? They'd weigh a whopping 2000 tons there.

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Shouldn't you be thinking instead how are we supposed to place *the jock* in a 10g planet?!

Iceman,

You're only partly right. Only thing that keeps me from adding armor is BULK, that's what I agree with.

But MASS means nothing in zero-g, and next to nothing in low-g. Let's use a "well-known" (in scifi-terms) substance called neutronium as base. That stuff is ultra-dense, meaning that a mere teaspoonfull of it would weigh several TONS. In ToS terms, its mass would be off the scale (too high), just as its bulk (too low to count).

(As an interesting side note, how come 50mm of Vicenium takes up a lot more SPACE than exactly same 50mm of Titanium? Rather intriguing..)

Now, there's nothing to stop me from building a titan at zero-g, is there? So, I could happily strap on those 50+ mm's of neutronium to protect that light titan of mine and still move it around with bare hands - IN ZERO G!

Naturally, that poor light titan would propably crush under its own weight if moved to Earth. Still, it could propably move just fine on the surface of Charon, having just minimal gravity over there.

Using the same analogy, low-G conditions would favor heavier (=more dense) armors while heavy-G would make you sacrifice everything so that you could shave that extra gram of mass off. Even more so, if it can be expected that a titan chassis will actually snap and fall apart if you put too much WEIGHT on it. How much more, that's what we're here to decide.

I was thinking about this as I walked home last night. Lets use the game mechanics as you suggest, Iceman. Armour types are differentiated by Bulk and Weight. As you extrapolate gravity towards zero then weight also goes towards zero. So the thing which prevents you adding armour to a chassis is now it&#8217;s Bulk. Therefore, as I initially suggested, if weight is no longer an issue you should be able to get more armour defence value on a location by choosing the stuff that has the least bulk. Heat notwithstanding, Titanium has the least bulk and ought to be the choice in very low gravity. Vincenium, with the least weight, should be the choice in high-g.

The one thing that might cloud this is the issue of AP/mm. Is Bulk measured in mm&#8217;s? Seems logical. What is the difference in bulk between Titanium over Duranium? Is it enough to allow you more mm&#8217;s of Titanium to create a greater AP value for a given bulk? If it is not then there is no valid reason for having Titanium at all (other than cost and no team manager is going to quibble over the few credits that can be saved by down-armouring his elite jocks &#8211; military settings are another matter, however)

Nice to see all this discussion ....
But you don't want us the rewrite the factory to be suitable refitting titans for any gravity ?
As I started the topic I was thinking about gravity effects on 'standard titans'. You are right when you rell me that the range I had in mind (0.1 to 10 with 1 being normal G) is far to big to be handled by normal titans. Gravity should just be a nice LITTLE modifier, not a whole new concept. So we might use it in a much simplified manner and apply only to 0.5 to 2 G maximum.

I haven't suggested any game mechanics Grah. That's the way the game actually works, in case you haven't noticed <img src="smile.gif" border="0">