Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I took over in running the economy for the most part for many months with John 3rd game vs Canoerebel. I had just installed WitPTracker and was figuring out how to use it. He had asked if he could send a turn to someone to help. I had played John breifly before, so I took up his offer. This Utility is very useful for the Japanese player. His economy was close to crashing.  I was reading both AARs up to that time, but once I became his Economics Minister, I stopped read the other AAR. I only gave economic advise and orders for transports to get him back running and avoided any military advice. It may help that I'm a Mental Health Counselor and am use to ethics. I believe a lot of players got a lot of help on how not to run the Japanese economy and in some ways how to fix it when it goes sour via his AAR. One of the two co-designers of WitPTracker helped (he is now my opponent). [:D]

I play this game for two reasons - to have fun and learn. There are plenty of players that know a lot more than I do and I use them to increase my learning. Indirectly it allows me to have more fun in the game.

Just my $.02 [:)]

This was a case of game mechanics vice strategy. The Japanese economy is a very hard part of WitP to master from what I gather. It is one reason I really have no interest in playing the Japanese side. So any Japanese player asking advice on how to run the economy, IMO, is just trying to level the playing field not cheat. Only the Japanese have an economy to run. While having the Japanese economy in the game does allow a player to accomplish more in the game and certainly exploit his/her successes, it is also an enormous burden. I hope Larry seeks advice on running his economy if he feels he is getting bogged down in the game mechanics in our current PBEM. I want to defeat my opponent based on good gameplay not because complex game mechanics overwhelmed him.

As far as strategic advice goes, it's just that: advice. No two games are the same. No two players are going to find themselves in the exact same situation. Ergo, while some one may say "try this" because it worked in my game it does not automatically follow that success will repeatable. So I may ask advice as to a certain situation, but ultimately it is up to me to make the decisions in "MY" game. In my current AAR, several people have chimed in as far as giving me some advice. All of it was good advice but some of the things that have been suggested were not possible to pull off in my game. So while it was good to hear some options, it was up to me to accept or reject these options. If I follwed some one's advice and it leads to a disaster, it is not the advice givers fault, it is mine. Likewise, if I have a major success, while giving credit where credit is due, it would be my execution that leads to the victory not just the good advice

One other point is that the game isn't balanced (and rightly so). In the long run, the game favours the Allied player. So, most players don't play to win and rather play for the experience of this amazing game.

Besides, most advice is sought when players are on the back foot, for example when they've made mistakes or when something unforseen has happened. In many cases, advice prevents a PBEM from ending prematurely, which is ultimately in the interests of both players.

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around. I want them to play the best game they could.

"[T]he best game *they* could". They, not a committee of the great and the good of this forum. If you wanted to play against the massed brains of these forums why not set up a game like that? I want to play my opponent.

If my opponent felt the need for advise I would have absolutely no problem with him getting lots of it from anyone in the world. Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help. You asked for opinions. I have told you mine. No it's not cheating. The actual question might be, why do you feel threatened by him collecting opinions.

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around. I want them to play the best game they could.

"[T]he best game *they* could". They, not a committee of the great and the good of this forum. If you wanted to play against the massed brains of these forums why not set up a game like that? I want to play my opponent.

If my opponent felt the need for advise I would have absolutely no problem with him getting lots of it from anyone in the world. Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help. You asked for opinions. I have told you mine. No it's not cheating. The actual question might be, why do you feel threatened by him collecting opinions.

I have never played a pbem YET.
When I do, I sure would HOPE and I will ask for help FROM the good forum folks here( and there are some of the best minds I've had the pleasure to learn from)

Not at all cheating, just a friendly nudge just as I would expect my opponent to be able to share and learn from as well.
This is a game for fun, not a real war of life and death.[:)]

When ever I play a game against my opponoent I usually ask advice from my friends.
Look at it that way, forum is here as friends and it's smart to listen to advice, does not mean you have to use it or implement it.

Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help.

It's amazing how true this statement rings, esp the more games one has under their belts, and/or the longer any game goes on for.

I have no desire to crush my opponent(s), if that were even possible. Playing a game into June 1942 and winning a smashing victory is fun once. But if it happens a third time, it's just wasting your time. I -want- my game(s) to last into 1945. The only way to do that is to keep the game fun for *both* players. The best way to keep it fun, is usually to keep it competitive. If it means house rules, or changing/amending house rules mid-game, or soliciting adivce, or "a mulligan", or even helping my opponent (usually after the fact [;)]), I'd rather the game be "closer for longer" than a (truely) unsurmountable victory early on.

The addage, "You don't learn much until you face somebody better than you" is -VERY- true in WitP. If you've got to crush your opponents time after time, you should probably find somebody more experienced (self-esteem isses being a separate matter). Once you do find that well-matched game, where you -know- you opponent can and will surprise you at any given time, that's when the addiction kicks in, and the real fun begins.

-F-

Take out the word " cheating" and take out the hurt in the phrase.
 
Having seen some of the extremely detailed advice given in some AAR's I would see it as seeking an unfair advantage.
 
After all, you are playing against your opponent, not a team effort. Any help in a specified area such as japanese logistics, as long as its done openly, would be OK.
 
Being told what troops and what ships to use in specific attacks is, IMHO, an unfair advantage. Its the same in being told what tactics/strategies an opponent uses in other PBEM.
 
Its tripe to say its just like using the Admirals/Generals Staff, the computer does that for you. You cant know how they handled the war in another time warp.
 
If YOU want to play another opponent, go for it, if your opponent isnt up to scratch then they'll be better off learning themselves, with generalised support on the forum.

Ahhh, I wouldn't take such a hard line. Maybe it is just me.

Playing WITP is like an "open book quiz." You can look at the manual, read AAR's and ask for advice -- but the choice is still up to the guy making the decisions.

I suppose, in some extreme conditions, one could be upset about it. But quite frankly I'd be more concerned about how fast my opponent was able to send turns rather than who may be assisting.

Regards,
Feltan

I believe it is NOT cheating! Of course you can seek your own help[:D]

In this game just reading the manual is not enough. IMO asking for help is not only OK but can add to the whole communities development.