Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Tejszd
All armour and gun penetration data has to be converted to a vertical equivalent.

Ok, that explains it. You are comparing weapon apples to target apples.

That's why I was compelled to interject here. At Panther Games, we have all armour and gun penetration data based on 30d equivalent. So with our method if a tank plate has 40mm of armor sloped at 30d, in the game that plate gets an unadjusted value of 40mm.

cheers,

Could you please take a look at the .50 cal. HMG on the US side??  For now it is mostly useless as it can't hit anything so it's better to stick with .30 cal.  The Quad .50 AA was called the infantry mower (or something along that line) for a reason, and the .50 is still in service today, sometimes used in a sniper rôle,  so it must have been of some use back in WWII [;)]

Thanks

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

CC does not have/use angle information in the data. All armour and gun penetration data has to be converted to a vertical equivalent.

That's what I said 8 posts ago. [:'(]

I know Neil, but it didn't seem to sink in....

So with our method if a tank plate has 40mm of armor sloped at 30d, in the game that plate gets an unadjusted value of 40mm.

In Close Combat with our method if a tank plate has 40mm of armor sloped at 30d, in the game that plate gets an adjusted value of 46mm

What does Panther games do with 40mm armour at the perpendicular ( CC=40mm) CC or 40mm armor sloped at 35d(CC=49mm)?

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

I know Neil, but it didn't seem to sink in....

Mine was a bit long winded. I forgot the old educators creed of 'brevity and clarity'[:)]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

So with our method if a tank plate has 40mm of armor sloped at 30d, in the game that plate gets an unadjusted value of 40mm.

In Close Combat with our method if a tank plate has 40mm of armor sloped at 30d, in the game that plate gets an adjusted value of 46mm

What does Panther games do with 40mm armour at the perpendicular ( CC=40mm) CC or 40mm armor sloped at 35d(CC=49mm)?

If t=thickness of plate, and a=armor slope angle from vertical, and all gun penetration data is based on striking a 30d plate, our base formula is:

t'=t(1/cos(a))(cos(30)) where t' is the value entered for the armor data.
so,
for t=40mm and a=0; t'=34.6mm
for t=40mm and a=35; t'=42.3mm

the actual formula applies an additional factor that provides further protection due to ricochets as the armor slope increases.

You are making you formula a little more complicated than necessary.
 
First, 40mm at 0 degrees is simply 40mm...it doesn't get thinner
 
To calculate relative vertical equivalent, use this formula:
 
rt = (t / Cos(Slope)) where t=thickness of the plate, and Slope = slope
 
You are obivously getting hung up on the 30 degree thing and are not able to get past that, and that is why you have 2 different slopes in your equation.  The 30d thing is arbitrary, it just happens to be the slope that most gun penetration data is available on.
 
I will try one last time to try and explain the relative vertical equivalent for armor.
 
Tank A: Panther D, Side superstructre is 40mm thick at 40 degrees slope from vertical. This gives a vertical equivalent in thickness of 52mm
 
Tank B: Sherman M4A3, has armor 38mm thick at vertical.  So its' vertical equivalent in thickness is.....38mm
 
That's it, don't overthink it. 
 
So any weapon with a kill rating of more than 52mm at a given range has a chance to penetrate the side armor of Panther D...The way the exe works (as it was explained to me), the exe runs through its operation and 'rolls' to determine whether or not there is a critical hit...if there is, and the weapon has a kill rating of 52mm or more, the weapon penetrates the hull.
 

Neil N,
 
How can you modify the forcepools? I downloaded the spreadsheet and it's still very complicated. Also, how do you transfer the data from the spreadsheet onto the game data?

Download the WAR Excel workbook from http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/WaRmods.html

Below is first few rows of the fpool;
54
0 KG Peiper / 1.SS 1
0 0 2 8
1 0 2 10
2 0 2 12

54 is the number of Battle groups in the fpool
0 is actually the 1st Battle Group "KG Peiper / 1.SS" and the 1 is for the side (1=Axis)
0, 0, 2, 8 = Difficulty level (0-5), Date (0-24), team (from AxsTeams due to BG side), quantity

The team and quantity columns are repeated as a BG can have up to 20 different teams defined

Now to use the edited workbook data;
1 - create a copy of fpools.txt
2 - open fpools.txt in Excel
3 - go back to the workbook fpools sheet and select A4 to AP6805
4 - right click and select copy
5 - go back to fpools.txt click on cell A1
6 - right click select paste
7 - click on save
9 - click on to keep the text tab delimited format

Thanks, but I don't really understand what is with the repeating sequences of 0-4 in the rows. If I wanted to add say 4 Tiger IIs for line difficulty level in KG Peiper, how would I go about doing it?
 
Thanks

From the AxsTeams TAB look up Tiger II SS = Class Number 113
Tiger II    Heavy Tank    SS Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf B    113


In force pools each instance of "2" in column A is the "Line " difficulty. There is 0-4 for each day of the campaign.

Go to column AK which is the class 113 reference for Tiger II

You will see all the "2" references = 0

Change them to something higher than zero to get TigerII's

It would be best to make some panthers or MK'IV's no longer available so you don't have too much power

Panther is class 99 in column AG reduce the quantity in AH

PZIV is class 101 in column AI  reduce the quantity in AJ

you should now have some TigerII's and less Panthers and MkIV's

Reality

http://wargaming.info/armour07.htm

Thank you

But it tells us nothing about 75mm ammunition nor about the formula involved in getting correct data for a penetration table in a game.

Interesting non the less.

ORIGINAL: Neil N
So any weapon with a kill rating of more than 52mm at a given range has a chance to penetrate the side armor of Panther D...

Yes, as long as that kill rating of 52mm is taken from a penetration table that is derived based on striking a vertical plate. If it was taken from a table based on striking a 30d plate, you should multiply each value in that weapon's kill table by cos(30).

I think (hope) we are in agreement here, the difference is we just don't bother converting all the weapons tables to striking a vertical plate (because they are usually available based on striking a 30d plate) we instead convert the target plates to the 30d relative thickness.[:)]

When the deflection algorythm is introduced into the equation, our front armor relative thickness for a Panther equates to around 140!

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Using the M3 75mm L40 as an example:
with 2 sources we have the following. First number is penetration of 30 degree armor plate, and second number is the equivalent total penetration

50m = 94/109
100m = 88/102
500m = 73/84
1000m = 59/68

Neil, I probably should have read your posts more closely - here's the difference (and both of our methods obtain the same result); Panther uses the unadjusted first number in our weapons tables, so we have to adjust our target armor thickness values. It's not a better way, it's just different (well, maybe a bit more complicated our way).

cheers,

ORIGINAL: Neil N

there were only 2 units outfitted with Tiger IIs in WWII. 

Neil,

I think you mean only 2 units outfitted with Tiger IIs participated in the Ardennes battles.

There was s.SS-Pz.Abt.501 that stood in for II./SS-Pz.Regt.1 and was part of KG Peiper.
There was s.Pz.Abt.506 which was committed piecemeal in the 5. Armee sector.

As a temporary fourth company, s.Pz.Abt.506 had attached the independant s.Pz.Kp.'Hummel', which was in turn equipped with repaired Tiger I. These were the only Tiger I that fought in the Ardennes. The destroyed Tiger I at Oberwampach, well known from pictures, came from this unit.

Finally there was also s.Pz.Abt.301(Fkl) equipped with Tiger I and SdKfz.301 demolition vehicles, and earmarked for the offensive. In the past, some authors assumed that it came into action (regularly mentioned with 9. Pz.Div.), but records indicate that was not the case, it did not detrain in the area. First recorded action after the start of the offensive was North of Aachen.

The Jagdtiger of 1./s.Pz.Jäg.Abt.654 boarded trains to the Ardennes, but ended up entangled in the chaos of rail movements and were eventually diverted to Operation Nordwind. Apparently only some support elements of the battalion detrained near the Ardennes, but there is that one scetch by a Belgian local of a knocked-out Jadgtiger near St-Vith that will always leave some doubt ...

results of the changes as posted above.
Before


After




You see the addition of twp King Tigers and a reduction in Panthers and MkIV's

Great stuff guys, looking forward to the path...I guess there weren't that many Tiger Is in AO but are the available for me in the campaign?

ORIGINAL: final_drive

ORIGINAL: Neil N

there were only 2 units outfitted with Tiger IIs in WWII. 

Neil,

I think you mean only 2 units outfitted with Tiger IIs participated in the Ardennes battles.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.