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RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:55 am
by steveh11Matrix
I'm reading this thread, and getting in increasing feeling of deja-vu. I'm looking to buy this game, probably after I see the reaction to the forthcoming patch - but I do, sincerely, hope that the economic rules aren't as difficult to work through as those for the japanese economy in War In The Pacific!

FWIW, on point, I simply can't work using video as the sole instructional aid. Please provide a full, correct, useful manual, with examples (in PDF format perhaps) and an AAR would certainly be a useful addition.

Steve.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:39 am
by ShaiHulud
Jscott- Let's take the case you presented, Austria and building lots of banks. Since you've already got them started, why not speed them up a bit by adjusting the 'Development' slider. I do the same, building banks, with France 1792, right from the start. Reducing other production to boost development speed is akin to aiming straight at your target.

On SAVING money in peacetime- If you examine your 'Supply' report you'll see that containers, heavy cav, artillery, are a hefty expense in upkeep. You can cut this expense in half by putting them inside your fortifications, ie; in garrison.

Likewise, grouping your armies into an area where they can all be supplied from one or two centrally placed depots can help to reduce your expenditure. In prosperous provinces that can support large numbers you can dispense with a depot, so long as the weather is good. If your divisions are up to max strength a depot is useful only to avoid attrition, so,if you keep their numbers below the province's support level and the weather is good, they can do without a depot. Just watch the weather! A heavy rain or snow not only seriously reduces the forage level, but, can wipe out any depot you build in that province.

As for what to do while waiting for your banks to be completed- Trading is not solely for goods. All those minors like you a lot better if you have a trade route established with them. So, fire the trade advisor, make trades with the minors you have an interest in inducing into a protectorate. Also, some nations, like Britain, offer lots of cash for needed resources. Btw, the advisor will still bring you trade offers from the other great nations. Sometimes, even good offers. Just don't take his advice as to what is a good trade.

Use your diplomats! Charm and Goodwill are actually pretty good at swaying the minors impression of you. Failing that, you can use them to cause insurrections in OTHER nations' minor protectorates. And, there's always the coup! I don't find the rest of the diplo options to be of much use, however. Anyway, keep in mind that the final influence on
bringing in a minor as a protectorate is to have an army of at least 40K within 4 provinces of them.

Try your hand at treaties, too. See if someone will actually pay you to form a protective alliance, eh? heh

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:01 am
by Anthropoid
ORIGINAL: jscott991
. . .   I built banks in a bunch of territories with relatively high gold earnings, but those take 20 months (or so, depending on the level already there).  . . .

If you allocate more of the provinces manpower to building those banks, you can get them built in a matter of a couple months.

That requires that you stop generating other resources/output (horses, food, textiles, etc.) but anyway, that is one option.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:03 am
by Anthropoid
ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

I'm reading this thread, and getting in increasing feeling of deja-vu. I'm looking to buy this game, probably after I see the reaction to the forthcoming patch - but I do, sincerely, hope that the economic rules aren't as difficult to work through as those for the japanese economy in War In The Pacific!

FWIW, on point, I simply can't work using video as the sole instructional aid. Please provide a full, correct, useful manual, with examples (in PDF format perhaps) and an AAR would certainly be a useful addition.

Steve.

There is also a "Simple Economic" engine in which you can effectively skip over all these complications and play the diplomatic, strategic, military building, and tactical sides of the game without ANY of the economic management complications.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:18 pm
by jscott991
ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

I'm reading this thread, and getting in increasing feeling of deja-vu. I'm looking to buy this game, probably after I see the reaction to the forthcoming patch - but I do, sincerely, hope that the economic rules aren't as difficult to work through as those for the japanese economy in War In The Pacific!

FWIW, on point, I simply can't work using video as the sole instructional aid. Please provide a full, correct, useful manual, with examples (in PDF format perhaps) and an AAR would certainly be a useful addition.

Steve.

There is also a "Simple Economic" engine in which you can effectively skip over all these complications and play the diplomatic, strategic, military building, and tactical sides of the game without ANY of the economic management complications.

The simple economy is not worth playing, unless you want a wargame only.

My 2-3 tries with simple ended the same way. Boot up Austria in 1803, build 2 infantry and 1 depot. Run a deficit. Figure out who to attack.

How fun is that? There's nothing to do.

I'm frustrated at the AI cheating and the interface.

Honestly, I'm not having fun with this game. It is frustrating to play. The AI has gobs of money (more than it possibly could have earned fairly on normal difficulty level) and I have next to none (one depot pushes me into a deficit). Trade is really hard to understand (Austria also doesn't seem to really produce a major surplus in any good).

I don't mind the fact that Russia declared war on me when we were on good terms. Or that foraging losses are enormous. Or that on very high end machine, the game's turn resolution is slow. Or that declarations of war between AI nations or even on me as a result of an ultimatum don't see to be reported anywhere.

But I do mind the cheating and the clumsy select a unit, move a unit interface.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:08 pm
by dude

Honestly, I'm not having fun with this game. It is frustrating to play. The AI has gobs of money (more than it possibly could have earned fairly on normal difficulty level) and I have next to none (one depot pushes me into a deficit). Trade is really hard to understand (Austria also doesn't seem to really produce a major surplus in any good).

Keep in mind that even at "normal" difficulty the AI gets Bonuses (cheats). It’s only at the very lowest level that the AI gets nothing. What the developers’ consider normal is actually still giving extra help to the AI in a number of different ways. If you want to play were the AI get’s no cheats (or almost none) then play at the lowest level of difficulty.

I just posted elsewhere that I have a problem with this too… that giving cheats/bonuses to AI’s is not in my book a “difficulty” setting… I would have preferred those types of things in an option setting someplace while difficulty would be things like how well the AI played… fewer mistakes at higher levels and more missed opportunities perhaps at lower levels. For example, giving the AI a bonus to damage at “Normal” difficulty is cheating. Normal should have all things being equal. But that’s just my thoughts.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:06 pm
by Anthropoid
giving cheats/bonuses to AI’s is not in my book a “difficulty” setting… I would have preferred those types of things in an option setting someplace while difficulty would be things like how well the AI played…

Agreed. "Higher difficulty" against AI that is really just "higher handicap for human" are not my ideal.

But name a game in this genre that uses an actual "how well the AI plays" system effectively?

The same decision-systems and action-execution systems (or algorithms) are used by AI in most strategic wargames. How difficult games of this genre are is almost universally a function of the bonuses/shortcuts/cheats/perks afforded the AI and corollary handicaps for the human. That is the way it is in Civ, TOAWIII, Close Combat, and most of the other games I've ever played. Indeed, in a game like TOAWIII there isn't really even any "AI" to think about (meaning something like an intelligent 'entity' that makes decisions). They call it the Programmed Opponent in that game, meaning that for any given scenario (e.g., Barbarossa, or Yom Kippur War, or Gallipoli) the PO has to have specific objectives and specific action scripts written in, otherwise it just sits there.

In short, as AI in strategic war games go, the one in COGEE is one of the BETTER ones. Your complaint is no less valid, and I share it: I look forward to the day when AI for these games are written so that they don't need bonuses to give a human competition, but instead manifest as dumbest, dumber, dumb, neutral, smart, smarter, smartest or something along those lines.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:13 pm
by jscott991
The cheating in CoG:EE is far more excessive than cheating in comparable GRAND historical strategy games. It's even more excessive when you compare it to how cheating is handled in a Stardock strategy game or even a Paradox game (even their shortcuts don't compare to this level of just unsubtle resource dumping).

Comparing it to Civilization is a copout.  Civ is no more intended to be a historical strategy game than a real time strategy game.  And the extent of the cheating is not nearly as NOTICEABLE.  That is the problem here.  Plus the cheating phases in on mostly HIGHER difficulty levels.

CoG:EE cheats enormously on the NORMAL difficulty level.  It is in a class by itself in this respect.  And its ridiculous to pretend that its a historical hardcore strategy game.

Let's face it, with these graphics and this interface, the only appeal this game has that it PURPORTS to be an indepth historical strategy game.  Maybe it achieves that in PBEM, but the single player is a joke.  The idea that every great power except the one you are playing enjoyed a massive economic advantage is about as ahistorical as can be.

In short, it should be made clear the level that the AI cheats so that people that want to play singleplayer know that what they are playing is a sham.  I never would have considered thinking about purchasing this game if it had been made so clear that the game only worked as a historical strategy game in a PBEM-context, because I will never be in a PBEM game.  The game is worthless to me now.

Edit: I've removed the signature. I've done more than enough to make this issue more clear than it was before. I probably won't respond anymore on this thread, since Anthropoid has accused me of "spamming." If I play much more, I'll struggle to find the answers to my questions on my own. I gave this game a fair chance, unfortunately it wasn't giving me the same courtesy.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:37 pm
by Anthropoid
Oh geeze dude! The signature too!? [X(]

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:06 am
by Gil R.
I've just posted a response on this issue in this thread: tm.asp?m=2081636

Let's try to keep any further discussion in that thread, chosen because the title "AI is cheating???" makes it a strong candidate. Much easier to discuss something in one thread instead of four.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:57 am
by berndn
ORIGINAL: Gil R.

jscott991,
I'd be curious to know whether you still think a walkthrough AAR is needed once bjmorgan's Advanced Economy guide is released. We thought that our ten tutorial videos, adding up to more than an hour, would be enough, but perhaps a complementary approach like an AAR would be helpful as well. You're not alone in having asked for an AAR of some sort.

I'm suprised by this as I haven't touched the game since this thread still waiting for a beginner AAR (thread here: tm.asp?m=2052054) because the offered videos are great if you know the game but help me not to get an idea of how to play this nor do I have tons of time to start it again and again to maybe finally get the basics before even thinking about getting into it.

While I'm sure that the majority loves the game it does little for a guy like me who has never played such a game.

I still would love to a have beginner AAR video to start getting into this game :)

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:46 pm
by arras
I was not playing new CoGEE much because of been short of time but there are not too much differences so here are few of my tips (please correct me someone if I am wrong with something):

As this game is about making war ...and even if you want to play peacefully you will need some force to defend your borders, main and sole purpose of your economic activities is to build, sustain and operate your armies and navies.

During first turn you should go through each province and find out what is that province good at producing of. Do not trust tooltips, move slicers and look at results yourself advice from game may be misleading. If province builds 5-6 or more of some resource with full slicer of manpower(except money, labour and food which should be higher) you can consider that province good at that resource. Some provinces can be good in producing more than just one resource ..like food, horses and wine (in agriculture) or spice and luxuries (in luxuries). That is very valuable. Concentrate production in provinces on things they are good at, which means putting max manpower there (well if you are short of food or other critical resource, you will produce that even if province is good at something else of course). Dont let your production spread all over - that is very inefficient.

Now when you know approximately what and how much your provinces produce you should look at what you need. Resources are valuable approximately in this order:

money
labor
wool/cotton = textiles *
wine/spice/luxuries
rest as needed

You are probably short of money so if you are not at war, you can consider to garrison your troops or if you fear some of your ugly neighbors can catch you with your pants down, move them all in to one province with single depot (depots cost money). Now initially there are just two/three things you can do to improve your financial situation:

- set your taxes to maximum. This might not look good at first since it will have negative effect on national morale but you can counter it by producing vine, spice and luxuries. Consider it trading money for resources. Money is what you are short at.

- trade resources you can produce in quantities and do not need right now with other countries for gold. This has benefit of improving relation with them as long as trade route exist. Countries with good relation to you will accept better offers (better for you). England usually accept best offers of all countries if on good terms with you. However each trade route you initiate cost money to operate for every province trade goes so try to get best from few ones and if possible choose provinces which are not far away ...make one province concentrate on one resource then trade all its production. Do not make lot of trades with few resources each. In CoG weather influenced production of some resources so I usually sold one less resource from province so if production was lowered due to weather trade route did not get broken. I think this is not modeled in EE any more (I liked it old way actually).
AI will offer you lot of trades and while you will not need to pay cost to operate them (one who initiate does), they usually want resources you need. However if some fits your trading policy or you are desperate for gold, accept.

- if you do not have high feudal level and you have some merchants, you can send them to sea zones with high profits. This kind of trade can be very lucrative but your feudalism must be pretty low (check economy report to see how much actually you get from trade since merchant ship interface shows only actual income of that ship which gets lowered by some nasty things like your feud. level).

Now when you set up some money inflow you can concentrate on developing your economy.
To develop something, you will need lot of money and labor (and sometimes textiles), you need other resources but in much smaller quantities.

So first thing to develop are banks and factories.
If some province is good in producing money (more than 10 gold) build banks there. To produce labor you need factories in high population provinces. So Pick few provinces with high population or create one by building lots of roads. Population of 5+ is fine. Choose province which is not particularly good at producing some other valuable resource if possible.

Once you developed your banks and factories and have steady income of gold and labor you should develop barracks/docks since province with high level of them produce good quality units/ships (barracks for units, docks for ships). High level of barracks is required for certain units to be produced and in CoG also granted military upgrades (this seem to be different in EE). Barracks are most effective in provinces with lots of factories since factories help to speed production of some units like artillery.

Next thing to do are courts and culture. Those reduce waste (which can really cripple whole economy once you conquer some more provinces) and grants you some benefits in morale diplomacy and fame.

Somewhere between things I mentioned you should develop some farms but it depends on how much population you need to support. At the beginning of game I consider not to expand your population to much since you will end up struggling to produce enough food for them instead of developing your economy and military.

Of course you can decide to develop things in different order or few at the same time, it all depends on your situation and goals. Sometimes developing some barracks can be you priority for example. And sometimes your opponents will not grand you time to develop at all :)
Vine luxuries and spice are used to rise your national morale (textile can be used too but is more valuable for other things). National morale is critical for many reasons and you want to have it as high as possible. If it is low, you can surrender instantly to your opponents and high morale rise also morale of your units on battlefield to some extend. Lost battles, enemy army in your capital, insufficient of food, feudalism adjustments, high taxes all lower your morale, sometimes significantly so keep eye on it. Once it starts to fall close to zero it should ring your bells and you should look at country details (via diplomatic screen) to find out reason and make corrections immediately, mostly by producing lot of vine spices and luxuries.

If your have little or none of feudalism, you can earn lot of money from merchant ships so build them few. Some sea zones brings lot of money, some brings very little, move your merchants around to find out. Merchant income is however significantly lowered by other merchant or privateer in the same zone. Merchant itself can be attacked by enemy so try to place them where you can protect them in time of war. They cost lot of textiles to build.

You can build few privateers, they cost only lot of wood and are not affected by feudalism level. However they will not bring you anything close to profits merchants can. On the other hand they significantly disturb merchant trade of your opponents (even your own if in zone with your merchant) and capture some resources. I use them also as a scouts so I can evacuate my merchants and fleets if opponent sends large force my way.

As I see from your post, you did not realize that putting man in to development will radically increase speed of building. Most of it can be done in 2-3 turns if maximum manpower is used and even few can speed things a lot ...to wait 20 months for something to finish is ridiculous and I understand why you gave up to do anything at all :)


* Textiles are actually representation of all sorts of 18th ct. advanced production** (I know it have slightly different role in EE so correct me if I am wrong) and they are needed for nearly every single important thing in game (development,unit, container and you can use them even to rise morale) and you will newer have enough of them. 1 unit of textile is produced from 2 units of cotton or 2 units of wool. So what is important for production of textiles are not textiles itself but wool or cotton. Therefore provinces which are good at producing textiles actually produce very little of them. They can be used in textile production only if you bring some wool/cotton by trade. So what is important for textile production are provinces with lot of wool or cotton production so use them all if possible. And as mentioned, you need double wool/cotton to produce textile (some seemingly worthless Med. islands are actually relatively good at wool). Reasonable production of textile you need per month is around 20-30 units.


** If you know something about history than you know textiles/costumes were actualy wery valuable thing ...wealth of family or man could have been measured based on how much of them and of what quality you have and sometimes they were used even for collecting taxes or as money in trade so representation is quit correct here.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:01 pm
by jscott991
These are very valuable tips.
 
I was doing almost none of this (except the development thing after people pointed it out).  I thought concentrating men was costing me resources.

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:22 am
by Gil R.
I began a beginner's AAR over the weekend but am not yet ready to post. Working on it!

RE: Beginner Questions

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:37 am
by steveh11Matrix
arras: Thanks very much for these tips.

Gil R.: I look forward to the "Beginner's AAR" very much!

So far, all I've had time to do is install the game onto my laptop and make sure it will run. I know the *first* thing I'll do is get rid of the Music... including the startup stuff. It doesn't sound too good out of my laptop speakers! [;)]

Is there any way of preventing the video at the start from running?

I'll start reading through the manual this lunchtime, hopefully. [:)]

Steve.