Matrix Games Forums

Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?

In Noumea there were 4x95mm Mle 1888 and 2xOerlikon 20mm, in January 1942 Australians put there 2x152mm Mark IV. In August US puts 8 guns of 155 mm M1 w/ Kelly concrete platform of 244th Coast Artillerie Regiment distributed by 4 in Ouen Toro and 4 dans l’île Nou. 5 months later they go to Guadalcanal. In 1943 arrive 2 NZ Batteries each w/ 2 152mm Guns.

From the 5 stars site http://www.fortiff.be/iff/index.php?p=3007

The Indochine Coastal Defenses are there too.

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen



Also a Free French Armed Merchant Cruiser, currently on the US West Coast (maybe refitting, don't recall off hand)

AMC Cap des Palmes was at Noumea in december 1941 and was transferring from dec 19th the japanese civilians living in New Caledonia to Australia. The refit occured only from Jan 43.

This is better info that I've previously found. Did some more research and found her listed in Tahiti in September, 1941 and Suva in October. Do you have her exact location as of December 7th, 1941? Also love to have any other details on Free French ships in the Pacific or Indian Oceans. Probably not those working with the Eastern Fleet out of Kilindini, like Leopard, Commandant Duboc, Emile Baudot, others?

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
This is better info that I've previously found. Did some more research and found her listed in Tahiti in September, 1941 and Suva in October. Do you have her exact location as of December 7th, 1941? Also love to have any other details on Free French ships in the Pacific or Indian Oceans. Probably not those working with the Eastern Fleet out of Kilindini, like Leopard, Commandant Duboc, Emile Baudot, others?

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

Built 1935 in Denmark, lpp 330’, loa 350’, 15k, 3000 gross tons, 2000 net tons. Not all that big. Was basically a SoPac packet/banana boat making round trips from Noumea to Sydney, at the time.
“Le troisième était le Cap des Palmes, un cargo fruitier de 108 mètres converti en croiseur auxiliaire. Il fut essentiellement affecté dès 1941 au transport de matériel militaire et de passagers (dont les prisonniers japonais) entre Nouméa et Sydney puis, à partir de 1943, à l’escorte des sous-marins américains vers les eaux japonaises.”

Couldn’t find Skyland’s Dec 19, ‘41 trip, but Aus sources list another similar one on Jan ’42, so it seems the Noumea/Sydney route was a routine. It’s very likely she was either at Noumea, or Sydney, or somewhere right between, on Dec 7, ’41.

SS Cap des Palmes reached Australia (probably Sydney?) on 22nd December 1941 with 336 (Japanese) internees from Noumea.

http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/AHU/Prim ... apter3.pdf

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
SS Cap des Palmes reached Australia (probably Sydney?) on 22nd December 1941 with 336 (Japanese) internees from Noumea.

http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/AHU/Prim ... apter3.pdf

Fabulous K, Thanks. Shows the December trip, the January trip and another in February, almost exactly 1 month apart.

With those turn times, and having her depart Noumea on December 19, that would mean she would almost have to be in port at Noumea, on December 7.

Thanks again K. Way to go!

I love the French DD Le Fantastique.  In one of my earlier games she sank Nagato in a wild melee involving a truly Allied TF of Australian, New Zealand, American, British and French cruisers and destroyers vs a pair of IJN BB's and escorting DD's.

Le Fantasque i think.

ORIGINAL: afspret
Wasn't New Caledonia Vichy?  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they wouldn't co-operate with or let Ghormely set up his HQ on land in Noumea, but when Halsey took over, he really didn't give them a choice in the matter!  At the start of Scens 15 & 16 in WitP (the only ones I've played other than the tutorial),  Noumea and the surrounding bases all belong to the US and there is already a USN Base Force established @ Noumea.  So, if New Caledonia is Vichy, wouldn't it seem logical to have some French troops present?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. There was a certain sensitivity that the French exhibited. It wasn't directed at anybody, it was just there. As to New Cal: It was utter confusion. The governor, Georges Pelicier, was reluctantly pro-Vichy; the garrison commander was very pro-Vichy; the population was FFL; the governor left in disgust in September ’41 and the garrison commander took over, arresting FFL supporters, but was ignored; a FFL official, Henri Camille Sautot, appointed resident in the New Hebrides, Vichyites deported to Indochine; the Navy didn’t really support De Gaulle that much, and some skippers (Capt of the Dumont D'urville ) were very pro-Vichy. Everybody and anybody claimed control over French Oceania – chaos reigned!

This was the tragedy of France after 1940. Officers and administrators honored their duty, loyalty and oaths, to France, but which France was the right one? Duty to the Nation? (the Vichy Govt), or duty to the idea of France? (the FFL), and which faction? (De Gaulle or Muselier/Koenig/Giraud, ad infinitem). It was “nous sommes trahis! sauve qui peut!” time where every skipper, every administrator, every citoyen(enne), had to reach deep into their souls and decide where their honor took them.

For that reason, it’s very difficult to develop an OOB for FNFL ships, early war. The ships that technically “existed” may, or may not, willingly cooperate under certain circumstances. All we have to go on is apocryphal and anecdotal references to individual vessels.

ORIGINAL: Jorm

Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?

I plan to make a mod for AE with Indochina on allied side with some reinforcements from France before war in Europe and from Africa as it was planned. I built a kind of realistic OoB. Just waiting for AE [;)]

Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.

Oh, sure. Just waxing philosophical over the boats floating about in SoPac during the immediate post December 7, 1941 period.

ORIGINAL: JWE

Built 1935 in Denmark, lpp 330’, loa 350’, 15k, 3000 gross tons, 2000 net tons. Not all that big. Was basically a SoPac packet/banana boat making round trips from Noumea to Sydney, at the time.
“Le troisième était le Cap des Palmes, un cargo fruitier de 108 mètres converti en croiseur auxiliaire. Il fut essentiellement affecté dès 1941 au transport de matériel militaire et de passagers (dont les prisonniers japonais) entre Nouméa et Sydney puis, à partir de 1943, à l’escorte des sous-marins américains vers les eaux japonaises.”

Couldn’t find Skyland’s Dec 19, ‘41 trip, but Aus sources list another similar one on Jan ’42, so it seems the Noumea/Sydney route was a routine. It’s very likely she was either at Noumea, or Sydney, or somewhere right between, on Dec 7, ’41.

The info on the december trip is in a book about New Caledonia history. No info about the situation on dec 7th but he should be around Noumea. Here is the infos i have about the ship :

Tonnage 3.082 gross 2.068 net, 1.950 dwt., dim. 100.38 x 13.41 x 5.23m. (draught)
One 9-cyl.Burmeister & Wain 2SA. diesel engine 4.500hp. speed 17.7 knots.

2 90 mm guns modele 1877
after 7 jan 1943 (refit in SF) :
2 152 mm guns in repl. of 90 mm
1 76 mm
12 Oerlikons 20 mm AA
6 (2x3) 533 mm torpedo tubes
2 152 mm mortar
2 Thornycroft mortar
Asdic and surface radar

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.

Regarding naval units, i would like stay close to history by including only ships that were present in Indochina and eventually Madagascar in 1941 (i identified more than 30 units from cruiser to tug ! [;)])

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

I found some datas about La Grandière . I will post others may be tomorrow.
09 may 1944 Panama channel
11 may 1944 Balboa
26 may 1944 Bora Bora
12 june 1944 to april 1945 Guadalcanal area
19 june 1945 Trip back to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: Jorm

Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?

I plan to make a mod for AE with Indochina on allied side with some reinforcements from France before war in Europe and from Africa as it was planned. I built a kind of realistic OoB. Just waiting for AE [;)]

cool,
are you up for listing some of your OoB, sounds exactly the sort of scenario im keen on playing/developing

ORIGINAL: Jorm

cool,
are you up for listing some of your OoB, sounds exactly the sort of scenario im keen on playing/developing

Here is some insight :
There was 12 regiments of infantery and 2 artillery plus 3 "armored" detachments and others small units (something like 90 ooo mens in total), planned reinforcement not included (1 equivalent regiment + some others).
133 various planes were present, planned reinforcement to be added (100 approx).
I identified also 32 navy ships and 39 civilians in Indochina area at that time.

Not enough of course to stop the japanese but it could open some interesting alternatives, with Thai forces involvement for example.

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

I found some datas about La Grandière . I will post others may be tomorrow.
09 may 1944 Panama channel
11 may 1944 Balboa
26 may 1944 Bora Bora
12 june 1944 to april 1945 Guadalcanal area
19 june 1945 Trip back to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.

More complete :

La Grandière
1944-45 :
09 May 9, Panama channel
May 11, Balboa
May 29, Bora Bora
June 4, depart for Noumea
June 14, Noumea. Savorgnan de Brazza is anchored
June 26, depart for Lunganville then Purvis bay as escort. 3 months duty in Salomon / Hebrides
September 11, depart for Manus as escort
October, back to Purvis Bay. Cap des Palmes is anchored. Depart for Esperitu Santo. 65 days of "ready duty" then depart for Funafuti. 45 days of "ready duty". Depart for Russel then Noumea.
May 1, 45 : Noumea
19 june 19, depart to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.

Savorgnan de Brazza
1941-42
May 2, 41 to Jan 7, 42 : Djibouti blocade (based at Aden)
then Newcastle for refit and Atlantic in 1942-43
back to Indian Ocean to relieve Commandant Duboc (proceeding to the Levant) :
1943 :
May 27 : Aden - Durban
June 27 : Durban - Tamatave
July 7 : Tamatave - Diego Suarez
July 22 : Comores trip
August 12 : La Reunion
August 17 : Mauritius - Tamatave
August 23 : Tamatave - Diego Suarez as escort
August 25 : return trip as escort
September 4 : same
September 7 : same
September 9 : same then proceed to Dar es Salaam
September 21 : leave Nosi Be searching for Empire Fairy 48h overdue at Diego Suarez
October 27 : Diego Suarez from Tamatave
October 31 : Kilindini from Diego Suarez
November 9 : Kilindini to Diego Suarez with HMRT Prudent
November 12 : Diego Suarez
November 22 : escorting HMRT Prudent, ML 832, 832, 381, 846 to Seychelles
November 24 : Seychelles
December 3 : Addu Atoll from Seychelles and return december 4
December 9 : Secheylles to Diego Suarez
December 11 : Diego Suarez, assistance to Le Triomphant damaged by a cyclone.
December 13, 43 : attack an unknow submarine (german ?), probably sunk.
December 19, 43 : arrival to Diego Suarez with Le Triomphant
1944 :
February 11, 44 : assistance to a british cargo torpedoed between La Reunion and Madagascar.
March : depart for South Pacific (Guadalcanal area for convoy escort )
June 14 : anchored at Noumea
November 4, depart Diego Suarez for France
November 23, Mombassa

Specifications :
Disp : 1 969 tW 2156 tons (normal) 2600 tons (loaded)
Size : 103,70 m x 12,70 m, draft 4,80 m
2 x diesel Burmeister & Wain or Sulzer – 2 propellers – 3200 hp
Speed 15,5 nds 17,2 nds (trial)
Fuel 297 tons
Endurance :13 000 milles (8,5 nds) - 7 600 milles (14 nds)
Armamant :
3x1 138mm
4x1 37mm AA
3x2 13.2mm AA
50 mines (Breguet B4 ?)
1 plane GL832
After refit :
3x1 138mm
4x1 40mm AA Bofors
11x1 20mm AA Oerlikon
4 ASW mortars
6 depth charge launchers (66 charges)
1 surface radar, 1 air radar, 1 sonar, 1 ASAP

Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.

English please for us un-educated colonials[:D]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.