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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:00 am
by jscott991
ORIGINAL: terje439

Sure, you might not win the battles. You will however wear him down. I am quite certain that you as a player recieve far more reinforcements than the South.

Terje

Actually, I don't think that I am. I usually cap out around 12k in camps I produce myself. The AI builds a LOT of camps (too many, in my mind; he should build more brigades).

I think he's producing a ton of reinforcements (I've seen him lose 50k in a single battle and be back up to full strength shockingly fast).

By the time I'm conquering those camps (at least the ones not in Tennessee), the game is over and whether I can win a battle in Richmond is no longer an issue. It's never an issue really. I've never even attacked Richmond.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:57 am
by terje439
Hmm, I did not see any of the bahaviour you mentioned. What I did see however was the CSA staying in smaller units, Divs and Corps and spread out. This made it easy for the Union to take on fractions of the CSA forces in the West one at a time and destroy them.
Not sure if the settings might have anythign to do with this, this is my setup:


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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:36 am
by jscott991
You are using very different settings, but the AI stays in small units in my game too.  When the army containers move out, usually a few divisions are all that are running around in the west.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:37 am
by Pistachio
No offense here, but I'd give my eye teeth to have the AI C.S. pack it in and head to Richmond.  Playing as the North I can't put a dent in him anywhere![:)]

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:51 am
by jscott991
Well, I can give you a turn by turn strategy of how to do it on First Sergeant :) (though if you're like most here, you don't play the balanced difficulty levels).  I seldom deviate from a set plan and my games always produce the same result. In general though, I think the key is to pack two army containers in the east to max size. I usually am able to eventually push them into Fredericksburg and Rappahannock (behind fortresses), but I really don't think it matters. He'll migrate east even if you just sit in D.C. and Maryland (see the last two screenshots above for January 1863 and then May 1863).

So I guess the grass always is greener on the other side.  I'd love for him to fight me tooth and nail in the west, forcing me to actually consider leaving my trenches in the east (which I seldom do).

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:04 am
by Pistachio
I have the same "set plan" when I play as CS - usually with the same result there, too. Usually if I build enough horse farms (it helps if Kentucky goes to the South) I can build plenty of camps and out-reinforce him. The ANV seldom goes into action, when it does it's always in Fredericksburg with Jackson as reinforcement from Shenandoah, and elswhere the defender bonus means I lose very few combats. FWIW, it seems like the Union AI will "migrate" east, too - one game I had a whole corps, with two full divisions (well, one was seige arty), and I marched it almost to Canada in the West. Conquered Kansas and Missouri and about half of Minnesota, and the AI never pulled anything off the Potomac as far as I could tell. Anyway, I'll try with the two full army groups and see how it goes.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:42 am
by jscott991
I didn't think it was just a CSA problem.  It's a capital bias problem.  The AI overvalues the capital province (when this discussion first began in another thread, Gil even said it was something they were looking at tweaking; he's backed off that now).  It's a pretty obvious problem to see, when you create the conditions that cause it.  A lot of players play too high of a difficulty level or deliberately play a strategy that avoids causing the migration (HS mentioned in his test AAR in the main forum that he doesn't muster much), but I'm pretty sure you can make it happen on any difficulty level.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:05 pm
by Pistachio
ORIGINAL: terje439
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What version are you running? There are several options on your setup screen that aren't on mine. "No European War", "Total Victory", "Greater Population" to name a few.

Is there a patch more recent than 1.2.3?

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:04 am
by jscott991
I lied about no more screenshots.

I started another game and played with CSA set at +2 power. If HS and Gil were right, the problem was that the CSA was being overwhelmed by my superior numbers in the east.

The CSA has been winning the war for some time. He captured 5 brigades and inflicted a decisive defeat on my combined eastern army (after which he pouted and took his army home to Richmond to sit; this was inexplicable, but typical). Almost immediately after that, he began the eastern migration.

4 screenshots to follow, showing the army group map, the manpower graph, the west, and the east.

You can't tell me this move by the AI makes any sense in this context.

Army Group Map is first. There is a second army container in Richmond under Longstreet. It's empty.



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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:04 am
by jscott991
The manpower graph. It makes little sense to me, but my margin over him hasn't widened that much since the start of the war.



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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:05 am
by jscott991
Richmond. There are 120k men in Richmond already and 20k more under Jackson on the way. Note also the reduced state of the two Potomac armies: 85k and 59k (barely more than are in Richmond right now; what the heck is he defending against!?)



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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:08 am
by jscott991
And, finally the west, showing Terje's point about small useless containers. Look also at the score; a competitive game totally flushed down the toilet by Richmond-packing.

These four shots are the most definitive evidence I can offer. If the rules are right on what power does (20% bonus in resources per level I think is in the manual), then the problem here isn't AI resource use.



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RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:31 am
by terje439
ORIGINAL: Pistachio

What version are you running? There are several options on your setup screen that aren't on mine. "No European War", "Total Victory", "Greater Population" to name a few.

Is there a patch more recent than 1.2.3?

I'm running 1.12.2 I believe it is called.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:48 pm
by Pistachio
Thanks - maybe I missed something. I thought 1.2.3 was the latest and that it was a cumulative patch; guess I'll take another look and patch 'em all in sequence[8|].

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:52 pm
by terje439
I am not sure which of the patches you NEED to install before 1.12.2, but that is the up to date patch atleast.
(1.2.3 I think is quite old tbh)

Terje

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:55 pm
by terje439
JSCOTT - how many brigades have YOU captured here? It seems to me there are only small number of CSA troops left on the map. And the fact that the AI captured 5 of your brigades in the east does not really count for alot as long as you have two entire armies + two corps out there, it seems to me you outnumber the AI immensly.

Terje

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:09 pm
by Pistachio
ORIGINAL: terje439

I am not sure which of the patches you NEED to install before 1.12.2, but that is the up to date patch atleast.
(1.2.3 I think is quite old tbh)

Terje

Ok I found 1.10 (comprehensive) and also 1.12 - downloaded both; thanks for the info and sorry for the hijack....

R

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:12 pm
by terje439
ORIGINAL: Pistachio

ORIGINAL: terje439

I am not sure which of the patches you NEED to install before 1.12.2, but that is the up to date patch atleast.
(1.2.3 I think is quite old tbh)

Terje

Ok I found 1.10 (comprehensive) and also 1.12 - downloaded both; thanks for the info and sorry for the hijack....

R

Good we got that sorted atleast, patch up and see what that does for your game [:)]
Remember that reinforcements to a battle now increases the WTF! (will to fight that is in this case [:D])

Terje

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:08 pm
by jscott991
ORIGINAL: terje439

JSCOTT - how many brigades have YOU captured here? It seems to me there are only small number of CSA troops left on the map. And the fact that the AI captured 5 of your brigades in the east does not really count for alot as long as you have two entire armies + two corps out there, it seems to me you outnumber the AI immensly.

Terje

I posted the manpower report on the previous page. I outnumber him by about 5 boxes, compared to 2.5 boxes at the start of the game, whatever that means.

I have a corps of 25,000, another corps of 30,000, two western armies of about 60,000 each, an eastern army of about 60,000, and an eastern army of about 85,000, plus garrisons.

The CSA seems to have a bunch of western divisions in Nashville totalling about 50,000, an ANV of about 90,000, another floating western division of about 12,000, and an army of 20,000.

That's about a 2-1 advantage in field forces (320,000 to 170,000). It looks like he has no men in some ways because a ton of his containers are in Richmond (all of his corps are there, plus two armies).

I gave him a ton of resources. If he won't build brigades, I'm not sure what to tell you. As for how many brigades I've captured, I never have captured more than two at a time, but he loses a lot of brigades by attacking my western armies with divisions and then retreating. Still, I'd be surprised if it totaled more than 10 the entire game, considering how often I reload when CSA brigades surrender.

RE: The AI CSA in the West

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:27 am
by Gil R.
Your screenshots are helpful, though of course it's hard to know everything that has been going on. I do note that you don't seem to have tried any amphibious invasions. That would hurt the CSA in one way, but at the same time it would be facing fewer forces up north. So that's an issue, though not the main one.
I gave him a ton of resources. If he won't build brigades, I'm not sure what to tell you. As for how many brigades I've captured, I never have captured more than two at a time, but he loses a lot of brigades by attacking my western armies with divisions and then retreating. Still, I'd be surprised if it totaled more than 10 the entire game, considering how often I reload when CSA brigades surrender.

What do you mean by "a ton" of resources? Is this still 1st Sgt., or did you try a higher level?

Higher up in the thread you wrote:
I didn't think it was just a CSA problem. It's a capital bias problem. The AI overvalues the capital province (when this discussion first began in another thread, Gil even said it was something they were looking at tweaking; he's backed off that now). It's a pretty obvious problem to see, when you create the conditions that cause it. A lot of players play too high of a difficulty level or deliberately play a strategy that avoids causing the migration (HS mentioned in his test AAR in the main forum that he doesn't muster much), but I'm pretty sure you can make it happen on any difficulty level.

I have not backed off that statement. You must have misread something I wrote. As you'll see below, I still believe that the CSA AI can sometimes hurt its overall strategy by overemphasizing the defense of Richmond, but even though we have yet to see proof that this is a serious problem affecting multiple players we are considering ways to make that less pronounced.

Much as you hate AI bonuses, why don't you play a game or two on one of the 2-3 highest levels and use your approach and see if this really does happen? That would provide more useful data points that playing multiple games at 1st Sgt. or a comparably low level.

The thing to understand about the CSA AI is that it is programmed to fight defensively most of the time (with occasional bursts of aggressiveness, like Lee's heading into Union territory twice, in order to keep the Union player from becoming complacent). This means that if the CSA AI expects to lose, it usually will not engage. What's happening in your games is two things: out west the AI sees it's going to lose, and back in Richmond there is a perceived threat, so those western armies head to the eastern theater rather than be destroyed.

The graph you posted showing strength is a bit instructive, but doesn't tell us the whole picture. The AI judges its odds not just based on the respective sizes of the armies, but also weapons and brigade attributes -- both of which require resources. (I've been referring only to troop strength, and should have noted this earlier. I forgot that the AI includes those in its calculations as well.) If you play at one of the easiest levels then not only does the AI produce fewer troops, it does not arm them as well as the North (which already has a massive advantage in iron, money, and weaponry), and also can't purchase as many brigade attributes. (There's another graph for weapons, though not brigade attributes -- perhaps check that and see how things look.)

And here's a related issue: if we increase the CSA AI's aggressiveness, then we will be hearing an awful lot of complaints from players who see the CSA making suicidal attacks that destroy its armies. The CSA is at a manpower and resources disadvantage, so the CSA AI can't be programmed to become more aggressive, since that guarantees it will lose routinely at all but the very highest difficulty levels. (It might survive longer by bloodying the Union a bit more, but ultimately it will destroy itself. So instead of falling back to Richmond in 1863 you'd see its armies decimated over and over until they evaporate in 1863 or 1864.)

As I've said before, I understand your position on not wanting to play a game in which the AI has bonuses, but as I've pointed out before, computer games typically do have such bonuses. As you know, the way companies make AI's tougher is by AI cheats and AI resource bonuses (since the notion that one should program an AI to be "smarter" at higher levels is preposterous), and we've taken the bonuses route with FOF. The most fundamental thing to know about playing any computer game is that if you are beating it at an easy level then you increase the difficulty, but you're not doing this. I guarantee you that at higher difficulty levels what you're complaining about will not happen nearly as much. And as I've noted previously, the game was balanced and tested for typical players, i.e. those with no compunction about playing an increasingly wealthier AI.

Does any of that mean that I'm going back on my earlier statement that the high value placed on Richmond can create a problem for the AI? No. But I do not believe it is as big a problem as you are making it out to be. As I have already said, we will consider what might be done to make this less common at lower levels next time we produce a FOF patch, since obviously we want the game to be challenging at all levels. (Our programmer has suggested that maybe he can have the AI not bother with Richmond at the lowest 2-3 levels -- a change that would be relatively easy for him to make, and that might be worth testing when the time comes.) But we don't feel that the product is flawed if it can be easily beaten at a low difficulty level. And until it is proven that the CSA AI collapses and hightails it to Richmond at higher difficulty levels and when faced by a Union opponent using a normal strategy (which includes thinning out its armies by sending some forces by sea to the eastern and southern coastlines) we will have no reason to conclude that this is a serious AI flaw.