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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?

I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]

The "they would have been sunk in deep water" theory generally doesn't take into account that if the fleet had been at sea, the IJN probably wouldn't have been able to find them in any kind of "sneak attack" scenario... and the KB was critically low on fuel to start with* so it probably wouldn't have enough to conduct any kind of operations except the hit and run attack that was carried out: i.e.: it would not have been able to conduct a prolonged "search and destroy" mission if the fleet had not been at Harbor... of course, they might have gotten lucky and caught the fleet just outside the harbor, but this would depend on when the fleet sortied, etc.


*The original attack plan called for the KB to be scuttled after the attack due to lack of fuel [X(] [X(]... the IJN staff (rather late in the evolution of the plan) came up with a way to refuel the KB.

Big deal, a lot of original plans turn out to be stupid, and are understandingly corrected later on. Sheesh, it's so stupid it's not even worth bringing up, because how could a force as good as that fleet, fair worse than if they used it somewhere else and just left PH alone? Losing every single ship to scuttling, what could be worse? The only good thing is you might be able to sink every ship in the immediate area, since your planes would have nowhere to go but continuing strikes. Perhaps 'the original plan' called for land force invasion as well, something that leaving the fleet without fuel to get back in immediate fashion might had been worth the danger, but to scuttle them entirely, even before anything could arrive to do any re-fueling, had you dominated the area for a good spell, what could be stupider? Kind of like sending 4EB's deep into the heart of Germany without escorts; that was a lovely realized plan that was.

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC




I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]

The "they would have been sunk in deep water" theory generally doesn't take into account that if the fleet had been at sea, the IJN probably wouldn't have been able to find them in any kind of "sneak attack" scenario... and the KB was critically low on fuel to start with* so it probably wouldn't have enough to conduct any kind of operations except the hit and run attack that was carried out: i.e.: it would not have been able to conduct a prolonged "search and destroy" mission if the fleet had not been at Harbor... of course, they might have gotten lucky and caught the fleet just outside the harbor, but this would depend on when the fleet sortied, etc.


*The original attack plan called for the KB to be scuttled after the attack due to lack of fuel [X(] [X(]... the IJN staff (rather late in the evolution of the plan) came up with a way to refuel the KB.

Big deal, a lot of original plans turn out to be stupid, and are understandingly corrected later on. Sheesh, it's so stupid it's not even worth bringing up, because how could a force as good as that fleet, fair worse than if they used it somewhere else and just left PH alone? Losing every single ship to scuttling, what could be worse? The only good thing is you might be able to sink every ship in the immediate area, since your planes would have nowhere to go but continuing strikes. Perhaps 'the original plan' called for land force invasion as well, something that leaving the fleet without fuel to get back in immediate fashion might had been worth the danger, but to scuttle them entirely, even before anything could arrive to do any re-fueling, had you dominated the area for a good spell, what could be stupider? Kind of like sending 4EB's deep into the heart of Germany without escorts; that was a lovely realized plan that was.

The thing that floored me about it was THEY WERE GOING TO GO THROUGH WITH IT!!

It wasn't until a few weeks before they sailed (iirc) that someone finally figured out how to refuel the KB... to me it makes no sense at all to consider such a plan, let alone put it into action (i.e. - training, drawing up detailed plans, etc.) There was something about the Bushido spirit justifying the whole thing, etc.

i'll have to try to find the references again (i've seen it in more than one place) to see when the refueling got added.

EDIT: The main reason i brought this up was to emphasize the tight nature of the fuel supply for the KB - it could not afford to run around hunting for an American fleet that was not in port... it could barely get back to Japan, apparently, and conducting a fleet action to hunt for the USN ships away from any kind of support was pretty much out of the question.

I think you are being too critical. sometimes hollywood gets it right. There is that one, for eg., where the US Navy captures the Enigma machine.

And lets not forget Kellys Heros[&o]

One thing almost allways slipped out from "USN out at sea". If they were attacked at open sea, there is surely plenty of space to maneuver. High alt bombers (Kate with 800kg bombs) woudnt hit almost nothing. Torpedo carrying Kates will not find their target immobilized - and it is harder to hit moving ship. So I would say less ships will be damaged, but thode hit severly would be total loss.

Another thing is - if the USN sortied, jap spy will surely send a message about it on saturday. KB will then turn around without firing a bullet as they will think whole thing was  uncovered.

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: 88l71
Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?

If you're thinking about the Battle of the Bulge movie, you need some rest.[:'(]

Hollywood has as much problems with ETO as with PTO. I dread the day when a movie will be made with a scene featuring Himmler duellling a private from the Big Red One on a bridge, and telling him "I am your father".[8|]

Well there's plenty of bad ETO movies but there's few PTO movies the quality of, say, Band of Brothers, Das Boot, Stalingrad, A Bridge Too Far, etc.

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 

You are Digressing. [;)]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 

You are Digressing. [;)]

Well, maybe he is. But she is really good looking. Just say'n you know.

Well if you want to learn history from Hollywood movies... better drop it as they are not worth a damn... Like the movie "Defiance" about some Jewish partisans... well the only thing true about it
was that there was such a group but they were never seriously hunted by the Germans and the movie forgots to tell that those fellows collaborated with the NKVD or they were robbing peasants in what was eastern Poland or that they commited attrocitis against the poles... and saying that Nowogrodek was a belarussian town in which no one spoke polish is some kind of crap....!!!! Well but what should you expect from the Hollywood...

The Hollywood movie industry possibly operates in the same way that the New Zealand television industry has operated. About two years ago the programming on most channels in the evening was horrible, mainly consisting reality shows from Aussie and teenage situation programs from the States. As was to be expected these channels faced a fall in their ratings, and looked in to the reasons for the decline in viewers.

It was found that the programming was being influenced by the advertisers, and that the advertisers were targeting the group with the highest disposable income. The group with the highest disposable income was the eighteen to twenty-five year old age group, but the problem was that most of this age group doesn’t much watch television anyway. So the finding was that the television industry was programming for a demographic that wasn’t watching their channels much anyway. [:D]

Hollywood just made movies after the same tried-and-tested formula as all the old pirate movies, like "Captain Blood", "The Sea Hawks" or "HMS Defiant", that is a movie loosely based on historic events but without any attempt on historic accuracy, just a good yarn to generate good entertainment. The trouble with The Movie That Shall Not Be Named or for instance, "U571" is that too many people know perfectly well what really happened and are annoyed about the inaccuracies. A century or so down the line, this will likely be different, and those kind of movies will be regarded as fine war adventure movies, with spectacular special effects (for the time). I also don't think people will then become excited about seeing Spruance DDs in 1941 Pearl Harbor (well - they were from about the same period, and anyway they were still using fossil fuels and powder-and-shell guns, so what's the difference?). I shudder to think what a contemporary of the Monmouth Rebellion would have to say about "Captain Blood". (There's just now a short Errol Flynn retrospective on one of the German TV channels; I think tonight it's the General Custer movie).

OMG, can you immagine it...  20-30 years from now that movie we can't mention is considered fact?  and that Tora Tora Tora fads away...  Holy crap i need to talk to may kids now... 

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

The Hollywood movie industry possibly operates in the same way that the New Zealand television industry has operated. About two years ago the programming on most channels in the evening was horrible, mainly consisting reality shows from Aussie and teenage situation programs from the States. As was to be expected these channels faced a fall in their ratings, and looked in to the reasons for the decline in viewers.

It was found that the programming was being influenced by the advertisers, and that the advertisers were targeting the group with the highest disposable income. The group with the highest disposable income was the eighteen to twenty-five year old age group, but the problem was that most of this age group doesn’t much watch television anyway. So the finding was that the television industry was programming for a demographic that wasn’t watching their channels much anyway. [:D]

last time i watched TV in kiwi land they were showing sheep dog trials on TV. Now i'm not quite sure WHICH demographic that is targetting, but i'm guessing it is not a demographic with a whole lot of income of ANY kind! Rivetting viewing that.

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

The Hollywood movie industry possibly operates in the same way that the New Zealand television industry has operated. About two years ago the programming on most channels in the evening was horrible, mainly consisting reality shows from Aussie and teenage situation programs from the States. As was to be expected these channels faced a fall in their ratings, and looked in to the reasons for the decline in viewers.

It was found that the programming was being influenced by the advertisers, and that the advertisers were targeting the group with the highest disposable income. The group with the highest disposable income was the eighteen to twenty-five year old age group, but the problem was that most of this age group doesn’t much watch television anyway. So the finding was that the television industry was programming for a demographic that wasn’t watching their channels much anyway. [:D]

That is both funny, and sad.

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

last time i watched TV in kiwi land they were showing sheep dog trials on TV. Now i'm not quite sure WHICH demographic that is targetting, but i'm guessing it is not a demographic with a whole lot of income of ANY kind! Rivetting viewing that.

You must have been here quite a while ago, as a lot of these really cool programs have been off the air for years. There was of course the live dog trailing show that was very popular, and then there was the speed milking competition. Also very popular was the top plowman show, but by far the most popular was the sheep handling competition, called ‘Blind Date’. [;)]

You must have been here quite a while ago, as a lot of these really cool programs have been off the air for years. There was of course the live dog trailing show that was very popular, and then there was the speed milking competition. Also very popular was the top plowman show, but by far the most popular was the sheep handling competition, called ‘Blind Date’. [;)]  

 
Hey, now you're scaring me!!

wow man....like, whats with the negative waves? [:)]

ORIGINAL: 88l71

And apparently the USAAF never heard of the idea of actually training bomber crews, using fighter pilots instead....


Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?

you didn't like "1941"? classic...