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What is rise and fall?  I know it is a very big book, but is it about only about politics or about the military history?  Politics put me to sleep so I avoid that stuff.

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

What is rise and fall?  I know it is a very big book, but is it about only about politics or about the military history?  Politics put me to sleep so I avoid that stuff.

You might find the article in Wikipedia enlightening.

It is odd now that I think about it.  That Rise and Fall of the Third Reich book has been on my mother's bookshelf since my earliest memories as a kid.  I used to play soldiers on the bookshelf usually having German troops defending the bookshelf from American G.I.'s who were fighting to clear each level.  That big black and white swastika loomed behind the battle everytime so it is indelibly etched in my mind.  The book is still there on the shelf but I don't think I've ever once opened it.

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

It is odd now that I think about it.  That Rise and Fall of the Third Reich book has been on my mother's bookshelf since my earliest memories as a kid.  I used to play soldiers on the bookshelf usually having German troops defending the bookshelf from American G.I.'s who were fighting to clear each level.  That big black and white swastika loomed behind the battle everytime so it is indelibly etched in my mind.  The book is still there on the shelf but I don't think I've ever once opened it.

Obviously, you're seeing just how much you can get away with on this site.

West Point Military Atlas for the Napoleonic Campaigns. A great introduction to Napoleon and his campaigns and easily the best maps.

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

It is odd now that I think about it.  That Rise and Fall of the Third Reich book has been on my mother's bookshelf since my earliest memories as a kid.  I used to play soldiers on the bookshelf usually having German troops defending the bookshelf from American G.I.'s who were fighting to clear each level.  That big black and white swastika loomed behind the battle everytime so it is indelibly etched in my mind.  The book is still there on the shelf but I don't think I've ever once opened it.

Obviously, you're seeing just how much you can get away with on this site.

Sulu, this guy is a false-flag troll par excellence, pretending to pretend to be a Wehrmacht fanboi, and hoping to get under your and sundry skin. Taking the piss out of wargamers, while pretending to be a wargamer. Bloody hilarious....reread the bookshelf anecdote above....brilliant stuff....definitely wants to enrage undiscerning readers, especially yanks. [8D] critique of Shirer's book is the giveaway to the real agenda.

ORIGINAL: Endsieg

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

It is odd now that I think about it.  That Rise and Fall of the Third Reich book has been on my mother's bookshelf since my earliest memories as a kid.  I used to play soldiers on the bookshelf usually having German troops defending the bookshelf from American G.I.'s who were fighting to clear each level.  That big black and white swastika loomed behind the battle everytime so it is indelibly etched in my mind.  The book is still there on the shelf but I don't think I've ever once opened it.

Obviously, you're seeing just how much you can get away with on this site.

Sulu, this guy is a false-flag troll par excellence, pretending to pretend to be a Wehrmacht fanboi, and hoping to get under your and sundry skin. Taking the piss out of wargamers, while pretending to be a wargamer. Bloody hilarious....reread the bookshelf anecdote above....brilliant stuff....definitely wants to enrage undiscerning readers, especially yanks. [8D] critique of Shirer's book is the giveaway to the real agenda.

It's funny how you haters gotta find imaginary insults in everything you read just because my name is a German army rank. If I made another 'Sarge' name then there would be no problem right? Well I'm not american and therefore I don't see a need to glorify america. Make sense? And that story about the book on the shelf is just what is says with no hidden hate messages like you are so desperate to create. The only hate here is in your mind Ensieg and ditto for that Sulu troll who posts hate after everything I post. Anyways, go back to your bitching if you must. [8|]

Before Erik closes the thread, I'll mention that one of the first books I read as a young adult was Heinz Guderian's "Panzer Leader". Like many 1960s wargamers, I took an inordinate pleasure in seeing the Germans win.

40 years later, I've grown up and now have a better understanding of the consequences of an Axis victory in WWII. Yeah, we still game it and yeah, we still have German fans, but I moved beyond all that.

However, one should NOT be branded as a closet Nazi because of his or her interest in the German armed forces of WWII. It IS a legitimate field of historical study.

KG Erwin stands for "Kampfgruppe Erwin". Now, I'd prefer to be called Gunny Erwin, in honor of the US Marines of WWII, but some folks objected to that. The grounds for disapproval was that I never served in the Marines. No matter what, in this day and age SOMEONE is gonna get offended regardless of your opinions.

I just shrug off all the ww2 german military fandom (though I do try to avoid it in DoD:S), along with all the other fandom that's mostly just cheap attempts at self-glorification by identifying with people who might or might not have achieved something, and hoping it somehow rubs off. As someone who doesn't use a historic "we" at all because I have an aversion to imagined collectives, particularly of the national(istic) or ethno-cultural type, it's a behaviour that annoys me quite a bit, but I've come to accept that it's widespread, and that arguing about it, particularly on the internet, is mostly a waste of time.
Identity should be derived from within, not without, and credit only taken for one's own actions.

Here's hoping this thread isn't derailed any further, and can remain open.

Edit: Just removed parts of my post that could be seen as troll-feeding. I really don't want this to get locked over a stupid argument.

While we are on the subject of "books".

I am about to start Wellington, The Years of the Sword, by Elizabeth Longford. My question is if this book is worth the effort?

Thanks for any info...

Keegan - a history of warfare
One of the best books I have ever read.

ORIGINAL: sabre1

While we are on the subject of "books".

I am about to start Wellington, The Years of the Sword, by Elizabeth Longford. My question is if this book is worth the effort?

Thanks for any info...

All I know is that Bernard Cornwell frequently mentions it as one of his historical sources for the Sharpe novels - that says more about my guilty pleasures than about the book, though.

Thanks Jackx. I will give it a go then...

Excellent read on the Uboot war;


(Regarding PoliCorr);

Sulu, this guy is a false-flag troll par excellence, pretending to pretend to be a Wehrmacht fanboi,

For the record, Im an Axis Fanboy and a Commonwealth Fanboy and a Red Airforce Fanboy, Kamikaze Fanboy and an SIS, SOE, SD, SS, Gestapo, NKVD, OSS, IJN & a Bletchly Park Fanboy to name but a few as well and so are all of you or you wouldnt be here. Political Correctness be Damned!! [:'(] [:D]

Not trying to restart an old thread [;)] but...

Recently finished East of Chosin by Roy Appleman, which lays out how Task Force Faith was destroyed, and I highly recommend it. It’s a compelling read that never gets mired in a small battle’s details (while providing plenty of them).

More importantly, it’s a case study of the complete failure of an entire chain-of-command, from Corps down to squad-level (and a case study of how in a severe crisis some leaders step up while others disappear).

The book also makes it clear that TF Faith’s destruction wasn’t inevitable. Tragic.

East of Chosin SPOILER ALERT

Examples of TFF’s leadership failure, from the top, bottom, and middle parts of the chain:

1) The day before the attempted breakout a tank unit that had been so far unmolested by the Chinese was withdrawn from a key spot along the breakout route, since the general who issued the order didn’t see the need to endanger men for a regiment that he already assumed was lost. The next night the breakout attempt ended at that spot, now a strong Chinese fireblock.

2) During breakout afternoon the vehicle column (all the vehicles were carrying wounded) was stopped for several hours by fire from a road fireblock and the prominent hill above it. Groups (at this point not units) spontaneously organized by small unit leaders several times attacked up the hill and cleared it, but those leaders couldn’t get any of the groups to attack back down the hill to clear the road fireblock, or to stay on the hill, and instead all of the groups continued over the hill to escape to the reservoir’s ice (with most of the leaders going with them). Each time the Chinese reoccupied the hill.

If the vehicle column had made it to the fireblock described above in 1) in daylight, it might’ve been possible to destroy the fireblock with air strikes.

3) Early in the breakout attempt, before unit cohesion totally broke down and before the breakout was under the kind of pressure that led the groups described in 2) above to fight their way to the ice, the rear guard company abandoned the vehicle column and took (not fought) to the ice.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Honorable Mention: Do or Die Men by ???. This covers the 1st Marine Raider Battalion at Tulagi and Guadalcanal.

It was written by George W. Smith. I have this in my personal library, and it is excellent.

I don't think that Shelby Foote's magnum opus (no Baldrick, not majestic octopus) is the "definitive" book on the US Civil War, but it's a very entertaining read, and perfect for a beginner to the field. I think it's much better than McPherson's popular book, for example. But for deeper analysis, there are many great books: Brent Nosworthy's The Crucible of Courage: Fighting Methods and Combat Experience of the Civil War, Warren Grabau's Ninety-Eight Days: A Geographer's View of the Vicksburg Campaign, Rowena Reed's Combined Operations in the Civil War, Ethan Rafuse's McClellan's War: The Failure of Moderation in the Struggle for the Union, and Gordon Rhea's Overland campaign series of books.

My favourite Stalingrad book is Jason Mark's Island of Fire: The Battle for the Barrikady Gun Factory in Stalingrad. A lot of detail in that one.

For me the best books have a lot of numbers, graphs, and maps in them. Less words, more data! Ha, ha.

George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman at the Charge". The protagonist is fictional, but the background story of the Crimean War up to the Charge of the Light Brigade is superbly done.

right now I am just starting Turtledove's The Man with the Iron Heart, about a SS lead resistance after the Fall of the Reich.

Favorite Miltary History Reads

For WWII it would have to be C.B MacDonald’s A Time For Trumpets, and for my other fav. Era (colonial ) I guess Fred Andersons Crucible of War would rank right up there.