4th Circle Mod

[DuckofTindalos]

Sounds like this is a modding forum thread.

[jwilkerson]

I'm not completely clear on the difference between the MOD thread and the SCEN thread since I've thought making a scenario was modding - but I am told modding is more about making new art - and scenario is more about making new data - so maybe that is the difference. If we are talking about changing data that is "scenario" if we are talking about making new art - that is "modding".
eh?
[:)]

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

We have ideas being exchanged through email right now.

Would it be interesting to post these so readers could watch a Mod be created?  I'd be game to do that...

Alikchi?

If we do that, does the Thread belong here or under the Modding Forum?

Absolutely! I'm writing up a reply to you and Michael right now. Feel free to post everything you like [8D] it'll be good to get some commentary from the peanut gallery

[ny59giants]

John,
 
Just remember to remove any private e-mail addresses if you cut and paste.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I'm not completely clear on the difference between the MOD thread and the SCEN thread since I've thought making a scenario was modding - but I am told modding is more about making new art - and scenario is more about making new data - so maybe that is the difference. If we are talking about changing data that is "scenario" if we are talking about making new art - that is "modding".
eh?
[:)]

Ahhh. Yeah!!! What he said!

[Historiker]

What does that ominous "4th circle" mean?

[DuckofTindalos]

The translation of the name of the Japanese building programs. 1st through 3rd Circles were implemented.

And I agree, it sounds threatening somehow...[:D]

[Historiker]

Ah, I see.

The historic naval replenishment programs? I never played Iron Storm but looking at the website, I might have missed something. Furtunately, slots shouldn't be any problem since AE. [&o]

[Alikchi2]

Yeah, we're departing from the lunacy of Iron Storm a little bit.. though I may return to complete sillyness in the future. In the meantime I think we're going to restrict ourselves to a reasoned analysis of what the Japanese could have done with the resources they had (based on Scenario 2, anyways).

Going to post our discussions here in a minute!

[Alikchi2]

Here's our thoughts so far:

from Alikchi
to John COCHRAN
cc hooper82
date Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:16 AM
subject Mods and such: "Circles"
Jul 30 (2 days ago)

Hey John! Game's downloaded, installed, I'm staring at the new editor right now. I'd like to see an AAR of this scenario we've dicussed, and it's as much your baby as it is mine, so here's some thoughts...


First a couple preliminaries - I think we should wait for patch 1 before we get into serious data implementation, so we don't crank out a fun scenario that also has all the bugs you might expect from an initial release (for instance, Taiho has 12.7cm guns instead of 3.9")..
Also, do you think we should base ourselves around scenario 2 (enhanced Japan)? I mean, it does have some of the stuff, like the extra Akizukis, that we mentioned as being plausible. But it also might enhance Japan a bit too much. They've been a bit mysterious about all the changes, frankly, so who knows.. but I'm inclined towards basing on Scenario 2. Besides, overbalanced Japan makes this game FUN!

On the other hand, Allied player should get some kind of toy to play with as well. I was thinking of including HMS Indomitable with Force Z, as was planned before she ran aground and needed repairs? That'd be interesting, though also possibly rather a bit unbalancing.. you'll have to talk with your future opponent to see if he has any tweaks he'd like to see, as long as they aren't any more silly than yours.

Anyways, those are the issues off the top of my head. Here's what we discussed on the forums, summed up:

1. The two extra Yamatos (Shinano and her sister) are not ordered. Two Improved Shokakus laid down in late 1939 and available in mid 1942. Basically Shokakus - same AC capacity, armor, range, and speed - but with improvements in armament (3.9" AA). Also perhaps a slight increase in durability to reflect lessons learned from the previous class. We'll call them Sawaryu and Toryu.

2. The Conversions. You said: "Your gut feeling here makes sense. Move all the conversions up six months. Have Shoho finished, Junyo and Hiyo within a month or two of completion, Ryuho due in June, and allow Chitose/Chiyoda/Nisshin to be converted ASAP once the war starts. Due to her slow speed Mizuho should be allowed for conversion to a CVE." I think I agree. One idea I had was allowing you the choice to build Hiyo and Junyo 6 months early (default) or allowing them to arrive 3 months late - but with their engine issues solved, so they can manage 29 knots.

3. Taiho and her sisters. We'll bump Taiho up 6 months (a year is too much, I think; accelerated building could make her show up far too early) and add in her sisters to finish 6 months after. There won't be capacity for the two sisters unless the Japan player decides to sacrifice some other critical asset or future build (I would drop the Unryus for extra Taihos, myself...) or gains fairly extreme levels of resources.

4. Cruisers. Just scanned the Improved Japan scenario quickly. Looks like they've anticipated our feelings about the Aganos and Oyodos.. there are more and they arrive sooner, as far as I can tell. Also - as you may know, the CVL Ibuki was originally laid down as a cruiser, and she had a sister planning to be built, Iwaki. We'll include her. I'll also try to include the option of completing both ships as CAs, as was originally planned.. the workaround here I think would be to allow you to instantly convert them from CVL to CA when they are finished building (with them starting as CVL by default). House rule to prevent you from choosing which class they are more than once, and from using their aircraft if you choose to create them as CAs. Gonna have to do some testing to see if this works.

5. Destroyers. As mentioned above, Enhanced Scenario really is quite enhanced - I count 5 Shimakazes, for instance.. we're covered here.

6. Other options, just for fun: the B65 battlecruisers? If a player decides that the late-war CVs/CVLs will be useless anyways and would prefer some sneaky surface forces building instead.. these would be interesting.

Regards
Alikchi

from John Cochran
to Alikchi
date Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:21 AM
subject RE: Mods and such: "Circles"
Jul 30 (2 days ago)

Good Morning Sir!

That was a quick response. You did a great summary of our longer discussion regarding the specifics on ships. Here are my thoughts:

A. Agree to wait on serious work until after the first patch.

B. Scenario 2 Base makes perfect sense to me since it already heads in the direction we are charting.

C. Adding HMS Indomitable sounds great! She should also have a couple of DDs with her to reflect a stronger Escort. Wonder if we can find the names of the DDs that covered her when she was damaged? Those would be perfect for an addition. These ships would certainly make the DEI a bit more interesting on both sides.

Regarding your 1-6 below:

1. OUTSTANDING!

2. Conversions:
a. Advance all CVLs six months.

b. I like your thoughts regarding Junyo/Hiyo on having better engines. Leave their availablility dates the same but increase speed.

c. Chitose/Chiyoda can be set for the 12 month conversation at the start of the war. This will make for an interesting choice by the Japanese player to use them for the DEI Campaign or immediately begin conversion...

d. Mizuho to convert to 'standard' CVE.

e. Nisshin's availablility could be moved back six months and she could deploy as the LEAD CVL--CS Conversion! Essentially her hull is the testing frame for the Chitose/Chiyoda conversion. Is that a good/bad idea?

3. Agreed

4. Like all your (and Matrix's) CA/CL plans!

5. Good

6. That is a FUN idea! Why not add them for greater choice?!! How many were planned and what are their names?

Other Thoughts:
1. We should expand the Shipyards some at the start to reflect another large slip or two having been built to accomadate the expanding building. What about expanding a couple of the smaller shipyards to 16 (reflecting additional DD/SS space) and bump the two Northern shipyards to a combined 100 or so? Haven't gotten AE yet so don't know what they start as...

2. Do the same thing by adding 100-120 points of HI from locations in Northern Japan. We can say these this reflects new steel plants and other such things...

3. Should we raise Naval Aircraft construction some as well to reflect the new air groups? It would make sense that the Japanese would bump Zero, Val, and Kate production as well as perhaps Jake or some other ship-based floatplane.

4. What about, reflecting the air-mindedness of this plan, set A6M3a, A6M5, Judy, and Jill to begin production 3-6 months earlier?

Am I getting carried away?

Michael and I are already planning an AAR built around this Mod once we have it ready. Might be good to bring him in on some of these discussions. Your thoughts?

As I get some more freedom within Work Release, I should be able to really jump in and help with this. Working with the Editor scares me so I could help in other ways. Let me know what you think!

Banzai!
John

from Alikchi
to John Cochran
date Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM
subject Re: Mods and such: "Circles"
Jul 30 (1 day ago)

Awesome, sounds like we're pretty much agreed! Just gotta hope the guys in charge put out patch 1 relatively quickly, then I should be able to churn out the data. I'll try to dig up the names of the Indomitable DDs.. if not, I'll pull a couple spares out of the Med, or have a few arrive early. Ask Michael if there are any other little changes he'd like to see for the Allies..

Here's info on the B-65s: http://www.bobhenneman.info/B65.htm .. I was figuring we could add two to the buildlist, set to finish in mid-43! No names were ever assigned. I'll suggest Suoh and Chikugo? Could call them the Suoh Class.

In Re: your other thoughts:

Production isn't my strong suit - so I really dunno what's 'realistic' or 'fair' and what isn't - so I'll trust you and Michaels judgement! I don't think you're going too far over the top - there's bound to be some expansion of factories and reallocation of resources in this hypothetical.


You mentioned aircraft.. I agree that Zero/Val/Kate production should be increased just slightly. You also mentioned speeding up some research.. I have a proposition for you. You may be aware that the guy who designed the Zero (Horikoshi) was supposed to move straight on into the A7M, but the IJN shuttled his team over to work on the Jack. Cancel the Jack and you could probably have the A7M available by.. early 44, I'd say? And all the Zero-mods would arrive sooner as well, with the design team un-broken up. This would take a bit of work though, scrubbing the Jack from the scenario.. but it might be worth it, tell me what you think.

And heck, yeah, feel free to forward all this to Michael. What's his email address?

Regards
Thomas

from John Cochran
to Alikchi, Michael Benoit
date Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:45 AM
subject RE: Mods and such: "Circles"
11:45 AM (15 hours ago)

Thomas and Michael:

This should give Alikchi Michael's address.

Michael--We have begun to hammer out the Circles Mod. Here is this email and then I will forward the big one we had yesterday. Since you have enjoyed the economic stuff, would you be willing to explore the shipyards and HI question for Japan? Also--what might your thoughts be regarding a slight increase in aircraft production as described in yesterdays email.

That idea of scrapping Jack in exchange for accelerated Zero Models would be QUITE different and I like the idea.

I am going to grab my copy of Kaigun today from the house and re-read the 4th Cricle options/discussion. I also have a decent book on Yamamoto that talks some on this topic too.

WE will probably need to look at the rate of pilot production and pools...


John

from Michael Benoit
to Alikchi, John Cochran
date Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:12 PM
subject RE: Mods and such: "Circles"
2:12 PM (13 hours ago)

Thomas and John,

It might help Thomas to download and look at the latest version of Empires Ablaze by Nemo. He just updated it. Http://sites.Google.com/site/empiresablaze/

Economics - I'll look at it, but I'll get Damian's input on it as well. The first edition of Tracker - AE should be out within two weeks. That's when I'll look at the Japanese economy in AE more closely.

from Alikchi <alikchi@gmail.com>
to Michael Benoit, John COCHRAN, hooper82
date Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 3:16 AM
subject Re: Mods and such: "Circles"
3:16 AM (13 minutes ago)

Hey guys!

If you have Kaigun, you know pretty much everything I know. Here's a quick overview of the 4th Circle:

4th Replenishment Program / Circle 4 Program / Maru Yen Keikaku / Fiscal Years 1939-45 / Constructions #100-199 (before modifications during the war)
- 2x BB Yamato
- 1x CV Taiho [#130]
- 2x CA Ibuki
- 4x CL Agano [#131-134]
- 2x CL Oyodo [#135-136]
- 1x CL Katori [#101]
- 4x DD Kagero
- 1x DD Shimakaze
- 12x DD Yugumo
- 6x DD Akitsuki
- 1x SS A1 [I-11]
- 15x SS B-1 [I-25-:-39]
- 10x SS Kd7 [I-176/185]

I copy paste this because if we want to strive to be realistic (or at least not-insane ), we have to put bounds on ourselves somehow, or we'll meddle all over the place and disrupt the balance irredeemably.. (I learned this lesson from Iron Storm!) That is to say, we have to start with the assumption that 4th Circle was changed fairly drastically (and with good reason) and make sure that all the significant changes we make can be logically traced back to that. However.. I do like the idea of having lots of options - historically built or unbuilt by Japan - to choose from.. and if you overreach you pay the price. (As in Empires Ablaze.) This will be a serious minefield for you John if you play Japan.. learning the new economy and resource management WHILE being faced with more options and a slightly unique economy as opposed to any other Japan player. I don't envy you

Shorter version of Alikchi: the economy is a big deal. I doubt we'll really understand it until Tracker is out - actually, I can confidently state that I'll never understand it, really! - but until we DO understand it, we have to be careful not to break the game with too much stuff.. :X Anything you can learn from Damian would help, Michael!

On a more 'fun' note, I've been trying to think of some little goodies for the Allied player to make it a bit more interesting for him (or her, I guess.. naah). Not major additions, like Indomitable, but little things. Spitfire floatplanes (type 355s)? Maybe the submarine Surcouf?

I'm sending this to Hooper as well, as he's expressed an interest in helping.

Thomas

[DuckofTindalos]

What are you going to do about the IJN sub-building program?

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

What are you going to do about the IJN sub-building program?

Haven't discussed it.. not sure I want to meddle with it, frankly, it's not a subject I'm familiar with. We may leave it about the same, at least for this iteration.

Edit - it's not that I'm opposed to the idea of some changes, but I don't have any ideas!

[DuckofTindalos]

It's a pet peeve of mine, because it's one of two fields (the other being ASW escorts) where I think the Japs failed the worst.

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's a pet peeve of mine, because it's one of two fields (the other being ASW escorts) where I think the Japs failed the worst.

Well, I'd be happy to mod in Terminus' Ultimate Sub Program. [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

I happen to have one ready, actually, although you should probably confer this with your compadres.

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I happen to have one ready, actually, although you should probably confer this with your compadres.

Yep. We'll see what they think when they wake up - oops, it's 3:47 US time [8|]

Have one ready? But I want to play Doomsday! [:-] [;)]

[Historiker]

But I want to play Doomsday!

HoI2 Doomsday?

Sounds really interesting so far. I had some of the ideas you have in my IATB, but never planned as detailed as you do. I always like to have more BBs and BCs and with the surface combat model in AE, they'll be a powerful tool when visiting an enemy landing site!

[Alikchi2]

Terminus is exhausting himself working on the next official small scenario for AE, Doomsday (1945 invasion of Japan).

And thanks! Hopefully it'll be fun and flexible. The great thing about AE is that conversions and the 'construction ceiling' mean you can essentially add however many Japanese ship classes you like and the Japanese player can build whatever he wants, limited only by the resources he has available to him. Lots of flexibility inherent in the game, as long as a scenario designer provides the player with choices.

[Historiker]

Yes!
I read once that it should be possible to force the player to pay naval/merchant shipyard points for upgrades - while this wasn't confirmed so far.

If this works, I have a simple idea that sounds great (to me): I add shiphulks to the game, that can do nothing but convert. The player now ill be able to choose what they convert to: CV, BB, BC, CA, CL, CLAA, DD or SS. If chosen, the hulk will be turned into this type of ship, added to the building list again with the correct time it takes to build it and will be completed after some month or some years as chosen type. If it really works that I can make the Jap pay for conversions, I may give the Jap player full choice about what he wants to start building this way. He'll only be limited by his shipyard capacitys, which sounds reasonable to me. This ignores the slipways and drydocks, but that's acceptable to me.

So one might add 100 or even 500 hulks and on dezember 7th, the Jap may choose what ships he wants from late 42 on. This would reflect my idea of getting FULL control over all of Japans elements when the game begins.

[ny59giants]

Iron Storm was my first PBEM years ago against 1EyedJack (Michael). We got to mid-42, before computer problems forced me to quit. [:@]&nbsp; I do not have the reference material nor the knowledge on what some realistic "what if's" would be appropiate for the Allies. So, any feedback given to Alikchi on this is appreciated as I will be the Allied player vs John 3rd.