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RE: loading every file
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:47 pm
by datacollectioncenter
Granted my assessment is with little investigation and really speculation at this point BUT I can see where a recovery could be difficult if a turn file were to corrupt (Without a backup). Basically, I'm not prepared to stand on my point. Too little info for now.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:47 pm
by NeverMan
7 players.
player 1 puts turn in queue QUEUE: 1xxxxxx
player 2 puts turn in queue QUEUE: 21xxxxx
player 3 puts turn in queue QUEUE: 321xxxx
player 4 puts turn in queue QUEUE: 4321xxx
player 5 puts turn in queue QUEUE: 54321xx
player 6 gets file, file is corrupt, continue as follows:
Host goes back to the end of player 4's turn and creates backup. Isn't this the same as it is now??
RE: loading every file
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:49 pm
by Jimmer
Stop trying to simplify it, Neverman, and you may be able to understand it.
In the first place, it's not 7 turn files. I'ts somewhere between 1 and 13 turn files (possibly 0 and 13), depending on whose turn it is, what phase it is, the ordering of the land and naval phases (if involved), and which player/nation is the host.
Then there's the complicating factor of when the host did a backup, which may or may not have been on his turn. However, It's possible that this complication can actually salvage this idea: If the game FORCED a backup to be done at the same time as the host took his turn (i.e. just before or just after), then the idea works (barring a security restriction; see below). If the game doesn't force a backup, this idea won't work at all in games where the host isn't diligent about backups.
It's also possible that the game security doesn't have a datestamp, so the host can rebuild from his last turn plus the in-between file last created. Or, the game may simply trust the host implicitly. Either of these would mean game security wouldn't get in the way. It would also mean the game is susceptible to extra attack vectors, but, hey ...
RE: loading every file
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:24 am
by datacollectioncenter
Actually, I have a security element that may make this difficult so this looks like a no go for now.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:25 pm
by NeverMan
ORIGINAL: Jimmer
Stop trying to simplify it, Neverman, and you may be able to understand it.
In the first place, it's not 7 turn files. I'ts somewhere between 1 and 13 turn files (possibly 0 and 13), depending on whose turn it is, what phase it is, the ordering of the land and naval phases (if involved), and which player/nation is the host.
Then there's the complicating factor of when the host did a backup, which may or may not have been on his turn. However, It's possible that this complication can actually salvage this idea: If the game FORCED a backup to be done at the same time as the host took his turn (i.e. just before or just after), then the idea works (barring a security restriction; see below). If the game doesn't force a backup, this idea won't work at all in games where the host isn't diligent about backups.
It's also possible that the game security doesn't have a datestamp, so the host can rebuild from his last turn plus the in-between file last created. Or, the game may simply trust the host implicitly. Either of these would mean game security wouldn't get in the way. It would also mean the game is susceptible to extra attack vectors, but, hey ...
Jimmer, it doesn't matter if the turn files are 1 or 100000000000000000000000, the queue still acts the SAME WAY!!!! You put ONE IN and you take ONE OUT!!
Each player on his turn puts one in.
Whether or not the code is robust enough to handle a simple queue is certainly up for debate, but the idea is pretty damn basic. It's a queue, it's coding 101.
You are wrong, the queue, in the worst case scenario, will hold all turns from the last turn that the host went, so all the host has to do is load up the last valid file and create a backup. Not hard at all.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:00 pm
by Skanvak
This could be helped by having the players send out TWO files at each phase: One to the next player, as proposed above, and another to the game host.
I don't see the point in the argument as Jimmer offered a perfect solution for the problem he raised. Anyway every player should archive their file. So no problem for restauring the game in case of corruption if simple (or automated...) precautions are taken.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:48 pm
by datacollectioncenter
I still don't like it because allies cannot look at every turn at the same time so discussing other players' moves is impossible???
RE: loading every file
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:02 am
by Dancing Bear
What happens if players send out the files to everyone as usual, but the recieving player can choose which files to load. Maybe somethimes he wants to load them all one at time to see what is going on, and maybe sometimes only the file from the player immediately in front of him.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:37 am
by datacollectioncenter
You would only see up to what you loaded. I think there is room for even more confusion there!
RE: loading every file
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:22 am
by Skanvak
I still don't like it because allies cannot look at every turn at the same time so discussing other players' moves is impossible???
Ah, this is what bother you. Well I am really not bothered by this in PBEM as we can use screen shot of the game to show the situation when needed. You could put it as an option if it really bother you.
A possibility to export the map (with units on it) to a pdf file could solve it. You send the map only if you need to discuss strategy. I really believe that this is a rare occurence since we don't have combined move phase. Most strategy could be discuss via email or voice chat without having the real map (you tell your opponnent the new situation, I think that for most of us it is enough. We can update our mental map).
RE: loading every file
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:28 am
by Dancing Bear
I think some players might want to see the other players moves as they develop, so the Marshall has a valid point.
Is there room for a partial solution? For instance, maybe it would be possible to load only the previous players reinforcement phase, rather than all of them?
And with sim dip/eco, is it still necessary to load everyone else's files in order, or just the final playes file?
This might not eliminate the problem, but it would certainly reduce the number of files to be loaded.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:46 am
by datacollectioncenter
The simul dip / eco should be loaded in proper order BUT this should not matter becuase nothing is seen in these phases until after they are resolved.
I'm not sure there is a lot of savings here, IMO.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:51 pm
by Dancing Bear
Do all the players still have to load everyone else's file for a sim dip phase? Or could only the player responsible for the resolution of the phase load everyone else's turns, so that most players need only load one dip phase?
RE: loading every file
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:10 pm
by datacollectioncenter
Actually I think (?) the ordering did not matter. I coded that a while ago so I honestly do not remember. I will double-back and see what I did. I will let you know...
RE: loading every file
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:50 am
by Dancing Bear
It would be good to check to see if maybe there is a way so that all the files do not have to be loaded for sim dip.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:52 am
by datacollectioncenter
Why would it matter?
All files have to be loaded before the turn can move on anyway?
RE: loading every file
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:26 pm
by Jimmer
True, Marshall. But, if they were somehow packaged as a single unit, there would be a lot less interaction between me and the game.
For it to work well, though, you would have to have a "view previous action" kind of something that would allow you to review other players' moves.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:20 am
by datacollectioncenter
Jimmer:
You cannot see anything in diplomacy/eco anyway, right?
RE: loading every file
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:48 pm
by Jimmer
Ah, yes, true. Well, with one exception: In eco, you can tell if GB is trading with you or not (or, you should be able to, if living by the EiA rules).
I would have no objection to removing the ability to "see" that information, however. It's a holdover from EiA that really shouldn't exist in the computer version.
RE: loading every file
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:20 am
by borner
the point of the thread was a solution to have to load less files to finally get to your turn. Is that possible?