Matrix Games Forums

Hey Sarge <S>

Didnt mean to give you a headache man. [8D]

I am not sure if people are understanding what I am talking about.

I am NOT talking about Wellington Bombers. I AM talking about Wellington RCM aircract. And specifically about the overall Stated RANGE they can travel on their Detail Sheet. My point being that in the Original BTR the Wellington RCM AC list a Range of 1200 miles. While in the New Version they list a Range of under 400 miles. [8D]

I really dont care what any countries Strategic Doctrine was in WWII as to where a specific type of Aircraft was allowed to fly for any reason. My entire point is that the "Mechanical Vehicle" we are talking about has "Mechanical Capabilities". [8D]

I also realize that the "RANGE" of ANY aircraft will be effected on a mission by altitude and enemy presence among other things. This is NOT what I am discussing. ALL aircraft in this game have a "Listed Range Spec" at some stated altitude at "Cruise Speed". And cruise speed may be different for any given aircraft. This is still NOT what I am discussing. I am also not discussing the magnitude of any effect on a "Listed Stat or Spec". [8D]

I am talking about the most fundamental basic STAT itself.

Jeez... LOL.. "READ MY LIPS" <insert sign language> [8D]

Anybody that has both the Original BTR and the NEW Version BTR please open up each game as a 43 Long Campaign for the Allies. Go to "List Air Units", select "Wellington RCM" then select either of the Squadrons that show and then select "DETAIL" and then LOOK at the "RANGE".

You will see that the RANGE in the NEW version is > (less than) 400 and the RANGE in the ORIGINAL is > (greater than) 1200. This is what I am talking about. This is ALL I am talking about.

OK, NOW... go to "The War Room" section of this forum and read my post about Allied Strategic & Tactial Doctrine. In there I disucss how I employ RCM aircraft throughout this game as a campaign is played out.


So now here is my question.

What is the Actual RANGE of a Wellington RCM Aircraft at Cruise Speed at what listed altitude in WWII within 20% accuracy? And please lets dont get all bogged down in if the Humidity is this and if the Temperature is that and if there is a foul wind blowing in Denmark OK? [8D]

I really didnt think this was going to run down this road. I figured it would go something like.... Oh, the actual range is XXX at 10k alt with cruise speed. We changed it in the New Version because................ [8D]

This would have been fine with me. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

Hard_Sarge;

Under Beta;

We've have been talking about the R-C-M Wellingtons. The bombers have been fine.

Somehow, we have all gotten a little off-course.

TS

BTW: BtR-Beta under 7 seems OK.

KBB

are you sure

"My point being that in the Original BTR the Wellington RCM AC list a Range of 1200 miles. While in the New Version they list a Range of under 400 miles."

and that is the KEY, RADIUS vs RANGE

(for the game, RADIUS is there and back, RANGE is to there)

in EDtBTR, mine still had a Range of over 800 miles

gold

the changes I made

Dortmond from Gold

that blue one is going to Hamm

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

Hard_Sarge;

Under Beta;

We've have been talking about the R-C-M Wellingtons. The bombers have been fine.

Somehow, we have all gotten a little off-course.

TS

BTW: BtR-Beta under 7 seems OK.

I understand the question

if something is wrong with the Welli Elint, then something is wrong with the bomber model also

good, it ran great on my Vista 64bit Laptop

Welli from BTR

Welli from Gold

Welli from the patch (which you not have yet)

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...


Carl

Exactly so !

...and if they would just release even an unsupported editor as they did in the WITP Game sets ( why not here Matrix ?? HPS does it with each game ??) then everyone could tinker endlessly away making the game to their specs. The more the Devs screw with it to please people the more chance of breaking it ....again... which screws gameplay for all....until another patch....someday.

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...


Carl

well, as Nick and Deckard were told, and others, there is too much from the old Code, that is HARD wired in the game, numbers and slots, mean something, just because it is open, or has this or that number, don't mean it can be changed, or added to

all of the work JC did, back in the day, on the old BTR forum, most of his changes only caused more damage


the old, Welli from the BTR game, wasn't correct, it was one of the planes, that was moved over, as is, I corrected it, because it needed to be corrected

I am still up in the air on the RCM models, all of them

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

I didn't know it had been changed. Maybe, there was a bug?

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

I think HARD_Sarge was being patronizing to dense me. [:D]

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

Mine is ALL opinion. I have no facts to back that opinion up. Just comparing TOH to BtR

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

What in ED-BtR is simple! [:D]

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...
Move over!



Carl

TS

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

...

the old, Welli from the BTR game, wasn't correct, it was one of the planes, that was moved over, as is, I corrected it, because it needed to be corrected

I am still up in the air on the RCM models, all of them

HS;

Wellington RCM
TOH = 639 Radius
BtR = 363 Cbt Radius 431 Real Radius
BtR(patch) = 436 Cbt Radius 519 Real Radius

OK. Got it! [;)]

TS

Let me post some screenies to show exactly what I am talking about. I thought I had described it in great detail but apparently there is some confusion.

This was all started when I went to build a Night Bombing Raid and I could no longer use my Wellington RCM Aircraft because they did not have the capability to reach the Target point I was using which was within 50 miles of Dortmund. So I immediatly realize that if I can not reach past Dortmund how do I get to and around places like Berlin, Chemnitz and beyond later in the war? The Legs of these aircraft appear to have been clipped dramatically in the new version as opposed to the original version. So I make my original post.

When I get a chance I will post a screen of the Aircraft Detail sheet of the Wellington RCM aircraft from both versions so all can see exactly what I am talking about.

The bottom line being that if in the Original game I can select a target point East of Berlin and fly Wellington RCM aircraft to it from England and they orbit for 20 minutes then RTB but in the new version I can not get these same aircraft to a target point 100 miles West of Berlin because they do not have the range or radius capability to reach it this is a problem. I dont think it matters if we are using Range or Radius, the point being their Legs are significantly shorter and that is what I have been asking about all along.

Later,
KayBay

OK, this is the part that I don't understand about this thread.

You can't reach that far any more with the new game. Now, do you think that is incorrect? Is that the issue? You want them to go farther?


C.

Hey Golden Bear <S>

I dont know if this new value is correct or not. That is what I was asking. I was not asking to make a Superstrato-Wellington RCM. I was making an observation that the legs had been significantly clipped from the original game. My only request was that what every the length of their legs it should be Historical.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, if this new value is the correct Historical value then we're done. If it is not then I was requesting that a change to the correct Historical value should be considered.

I prefer to play a Historical Simulation Strategy Game with equipment that has Historical Capabilities. In this way I can attempt "What if" strategies using the same equipment that was actually available. If I wanted to build Superstrato-Imperial Dreadnaughts I could easily accomplish this with a Hex Editor. This is not my goal. And not knowing what is Historically accurate and what is not I was asking for the Matrix crew to take a look and see. Because IMHO I believe I had detected an Error or an Oversight and I wanted to give them an opportunity to tell me what it was or that I was mistaken.

Regards,
KayBay [8D]

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help