Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by Wolver



5 Southern troops retreating at (Bull Run?) General Bee saw Jackson and his troops holding their ground.

Yes - 1st Bull Run is right as well.

Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
7. Voltaire, on the execution of British Admiral John Byng for failure to relieve Minorca during the Seven Years' War.

9. I believe the quote is by Churchill, from his "World Crisis" (about Jellicoe obviously).

18. I believe that this was Lincoln to McClellan after the failure of the Seven Days' battles.

Yes, yes, and I don't know, but sounds about right.

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
HMS Warspite broke her towline on the way to the breakers, I beleive near you on the Cornish coastline. Ran aground and foundered I think.

Warspite...you are obviously a naval buff as well?

Correct, except she didn't founder, but was broken up in situ. If ever there was a 20th century British ship that should have been preserved.... Bankrupt countries can't afford such luxuries though!

Originally posted by Johnny Canuck


Sorry about that. Good point about the "Fighting Instructions." It's a bit funny to think that by the late-1800s the evolution of command tactics & signalling in the RN led to just as rigid a system as before & led to the Camperdown/Victoria disaster & nearly resulted in the loss of the Queen Elizabeths at Jutland. Prime example of history always repeating itself!

I don't believe the Victoria and Camperdown was due to rigid tactics, so much as the fearsome reputation of Adm Tryon, and an well engrained reluctance to question command. The theory that I subscibe to (and the most accepted) is that he mixed up turning radius and diameter (having done it once before when younger (but got away with it), thus turning inwards with only half the room he should have had. There seems to have been only minimal attempt to question him by his bridge crew, and the other column were expecting orders to correct the situation, until too late. I don't see that this relates to fighting instructions or tactical rigidity.
[edit to correct a small cock-up]

Originally posted by gmenfan
13 The Shóhó at 10:40 on the morning of May 4th 1942, is that specific enough?

OK, you win! I thought that (guven the forum) we ought to get that one correct!

Originally posted by Rowlf
S4. Winston Churchill on Bernard Montgomery (nice list of quotes here: http://www.insults.net/html/political/w ... chill.html)

S6. David Lloyd George about General Douglas Haig, I believe following the 3rd Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele) (September, 1917)

S12. Robert Oppenheimer, on seeing the first atomic explosion at Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16, 1945

S14. MacArthur, the last part of a statement made to reporters after his escape from Corregidor in 1942

S16. Marquis of Anglesey to Wellington (Wellington's reply "By God sir, so you have")

S17. Charles Napier in a report to Britain after he had just conquered Scinde (India) (bad pun, baaaad pun)

4 - yes
6 - yes (although I don't know the occasion)
12 - yes
14 yes
16 - yes (I have seen his false leg, it is kept in a museum which IIRC was at Plas Newydd in Anglesey
17 - correct, Peccavi is (of course ) the latin for I have sinned. (I always like "clever" signals. One day I may gather a list of really good ones, the RN had a habit of really clever ones at one point)

Yes, too bad Warspite was not preserved. Belfast is a beaut though. Saw her when in London a few years back. Next time I'm over (I've a Canadian mate who works for the BBC) I'm going to Portsmouth to see Victory and Warrior.

USS Enterprise should not have been scrapped in 1959. Even Halsey could not save her during the Cold War. Fear is an amazing thing. You would think preserving her would be worth more to help quell public uneasiness and marshall pride than a few more B52s...

Originally posted by HMSWarspite


I don't believe the Victoria and Camperdown was due to rigid tactics, so much as the fearsome reputation of Adm Tryon, and an well engrained reluctance to question command. The theory that I subscibe to (and the most accepted) is that he mixed up turning radius and diameter (having done it once before when younger (but got away with it), thus turning inwards with only half the room he should have had. There seems to have been only minimal attempt to question him by his bridge crew, and the other column were expecting orders to correct the situation, until too late. I don't see that this relates to fighting instructions or tactical rigidity.
[edit to correct a small cock-up]

I completely agree with your overview of the disaster; it certainly seems that Tryon made an simple but devastating mistake. However, I would say that the extreme reluctance to question Tryon by the bridge crew & the captain of HMS Camperdown was not an isolated incident, but was endemic in the pre-war RN & was a symptom of the general tactical rigidity. The ethos of "obey the admiral" that led to the loss of the Victoria was the same problem that led Evan-Thomas to not execute a turn together at the crucial moment at Jutland, and instead wait for Beatty's signaller to drop the signal for the turn. The tactical rigidity of the RN led Evan-Thomas to wait to execute the turn, despite the fact that in the wait for the signal to drop, the High Seas Fleet was able to close another 4000 yards & bring Evan-Thomas' Queen Elizabeths under fire as they executed their turn. It was a minor miracle that none of these ships were lost, as they were unsupported during the turn. The loss of HMS Victoria & this incident at Jutland are related, in that subordinates obeyed patently faulty orders & risked disaster. Both cases are related to the general tactical rigidty in the RN that emphasized the chain of command and penalized individual initiative.

Because you are obviously going to read this thread, rather than play UV that you have just had delivered, here are the answers!

S1. Mad is he? Then I hope he will bite some of my other generals.
GEORGE II ABOUT JAMES WOLFE
S2. A man who hath had his hand very deep in the blood of many innocent men.
OLIVER CROMWELL ABOUT PRINCE RUPERT OF THE RHINE
S3. There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today, _______.
SIR DAVID BEATTY TO CHATFIELD HIS FLAG CAPTAIN
S4. In defeat unbeatable; in victory unbearable.
CHURCHILL ABOUT BERNARD MONTGOMERY
S5. There is ______, standing like a stone wall. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer.
BRIGADIER GENERAL BERNARD BEE ABOUT T J JACKSON
S6. Brilliant to the top of his army boots.
DAVID LLOYD GEORGE ABOUT DOUGLAS HAIG
S7. In this country it is thought proper to kill an admiral from time to time, to encourage the others.
VOLTAIRE ABOUT JOHN BYNG
S8. By many degrees, the greatest soldier on record.
DUKE OF WELLINGTON ABOUT HANNIBAL
S9. _______ was the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon.
CHURCHILL ABOUT JELLICOE
Part 2. Who said, or wrote the following

S10. I have tremendous admiration for Caesar. But …I myself belong rather to the class of Bismarcks.
MUSSOLINI
S11. I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the stomach of a king….
ELIZABETH I
S12. Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds. (modern quote, not original source).
ROBERT OPPENHEIMER
S13. Scratch one flat top. (bonus point for the occasion).
COMMANDER ROBERT DIXON SINKING OF SHOHO CORAL SEA 7/5/42
S14. I shall return.
MACARTHUR
S15. All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable…..
SUN TZU
S16. I've lost my leg, Egad!
LORD UXBRIDGE TO WELLINGTON
S17. Peccavi.
(I HAVE SINNED) SIR CHARLES NAPIER, AFTER BATTLE OF HYDERABAD 1843
S18. My dear McClellan, If you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
S19. The enemy came. He was beaten. I am tired. Good night.
HENRI DE LA TOUR D'AUVERGNE, VICOMPTE DE TURENNE (TUNEN 1658)
S20. And Finally, which operation caused R W Thompson to write:
In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation…. was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe-breaking and begin on the Bank of England.
MARKET-GARDEN (ARNHEM SEPT 1944)

I guess the quizzes will stop now!