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One thing to keep in mind is that some ops losses are no doubt taking place on the attackers part. However, the defending units seem to be able to repair as fast as attackers can damage them, still too early to render a final judgement though.

Turn 4:

Another bad one for the attacker. 2 Combat, 4 Support units lost. No vehicles have been lost despite the combat reports. 1 Unit gains 1 point of disruption, all artillery units gained 1 fatigue.

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Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 2025 troops, 153 guns, 131 vehicles, Assault Value = 635

Defending force 6593 troops, 132 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 229

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (0 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
21 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
66th Infantry Regiment
38th Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion

Defending units:
Rifles of Canada Battalion..........115 Supplies, 61 Morale, 4 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 XP gain, no repair, 2 Combat damaged
Winnipeg Grenadiers Battalion.......94 Supplies, 60 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP Gain, no repair, 0 losses
Hong Kong Fortress.................285 Supplies, 61 Morale, 4 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, 0 losses
1st Middlesex Battalion............59 Supplies, 50 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP gain, no repair, 0 losses
Kowloon Brigade...................312 Supplies, 30 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, 1 combat 1 support damaged
102nd RN Base Force..............103 Supplies, Morale 32, 4 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP gain, partial repair, 1 support damaged


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Hong Kong Supplies 17843 vs No Combat 17505 = +339
Total Supplies 18811 vs No Combat 18768 = +43
Supplies T4 18811 vs Supplies T3 18854 = -43

Well on first blush it looks like we has a bug ...EDIT: Maybe not T3 -> T4 360 consumed

...would like to see the rest of the seven bombarding days..

Stuck the numbers in an Excel sheet

Non bombarding Average Defender Supply consumption = 60, High =70, Low = 36, Total = 360

Bombarding Defender Supply Consumption so far 38 & 44 & 360 &....

ORIGINAL: Shark7


Hong Kong Supplies 17843 vs No Combat 17505 = +339
Total Supplies 18494 vs No Combat 18768 = -274
Supplies T4 18494 vs Supplies T3 18854 = -40

Bad Math - Difference is 360...

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Shark7


Hong Kong Supplies 17843 vs No Combat 17505 = +339
Total Supplies 18494 vs No Combat 18768 = -274
Supplies T4 18494 vs Supplies T3 18854 = -40

Bad Math - Difference is 360...

Guess which subject gave me the most trouble in school 15 years ago. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Shark7


Hong Kong Supplies 17843 vs No Combat 17505 = +339
Total Supplies 18494 vs No Combat 18768 = -274
Supplies T4 18494 vs Supplies T3 18854 = -40

Bad Math - Difference is 360...

Guess which subject gave me the most trouble in school 15 years ago. [:D]

Well lets see T5, T6 and T7...[:)]

Turn 5:

Attacker again takes the worst of it, 2 Artillery units gain 3 disruption, 5 of 6 artillery units gain 2-3 fatigue each, 1 Tube, 4 vehicles, 2 support lost.

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Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 2012 troops, 153 guns, 131 vehicles, Assault Value = 636

Defending force 6611 troops, 132 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 228

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 7 (4 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Assaulting units:
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
66th Infantry Regiment
38th Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Mortar Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion

Defending units:
1st Middlesex Battalion...........55 supplies, 50 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP Gain, no repair, no losses
Rifles of Canada Battalion.........144 supplies, 61 Morale, 4 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Hong Kong Fortress.................302 Supplies, 61 Morale, 3 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Winnipeg Grenadiers Battalion......94 Supplies, 60 MOrale, 2 FAtigue, 0 Disruption, 1 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Kowloon Brigade....................314 Supplies, 30 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses
102nd RN Base Force................104 Supplies, 32 Morale, 3 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 XP gain, no repair, no losses


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Hong Kong Supplies 17748 vs NO Combat 17846 = -98
Total Supplies 18761 vs No Combat 18732 = +29
Supplies T5 18761 vs Supplies T4 18811 = -50

I made a bad error on turn 4 supply total. [:-]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: treespider





Bad Math - Difference is 360...

Guess which subject gave me the most trouble in school 15 years ago. [:D]

Well lets see T5, T6 and T7...[:)]

treespider, I doubled checked my math on Turn 4, I had misadded by leaving out about 300 supply. The actual numbers were 18811 total supply and a difference of -43 supplies from turn 3.

NP - I think you've identified a bug...[:)]

Yes agree probably a bug and thanks shark for testing.

But lets see the final two turns...

Turn 6:

Again Attacker gets slammed. 6 vehicles, 1 tube, 5 support lost. No disruption or fatigue gains this turn though.

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Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1990 troops, 153 guns, 127 vehicles, Assault Value = 636

Defending force 6623 troops, 132 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 228

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 6 (4 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
66th Infantry Regiment
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
38th Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion

Defending units:
1st Middlesex Battalion................55 Supplies, 50 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Hong Kong Fortress.....................302 supplies, 61 Morale, 2 fatigue, 0 disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, 1 AAA tube lost
Winnipeg Grenadiers Battalion.........94 Supplies, 60 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP gain, no repair, no losses
Rifles of Canada Battalion...........154 Supplies, 61 Morale, 4 FAtigue, 0 Disruption, 1 XP gain, parital repair, no losses
Kowloon Brigade......................314 Supplies, 30 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses
102nd RN Base Force..................105 Supplies, 32 Morale, 4 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 XP gain, partial repair, no losses


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hong Kong Supplies 17694 vs No Combat 17392 = +302
Total Supplies 18718 vs 18662 = +56
Supplies T6 18718 vs Supplies T5 18761 = -43

Turn 7:

Not so bad for the Attacker this time, only 2 support lost. Small amount of disruption (1 point) gained on 1 Hvy arty unit. No Fatigue gains.

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Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1985 troops, 153 guns, 123 vehicles, Assault Value = 637

Defending force 6621 troops, 132 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 228

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Assaulting units:
38th Division
66th Infantry Regiment
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion

Defending units:
1st Middlesex Battalion..........55 Supplies, 50 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 2 XP Gain, fully repaired, no losses
Rifles of Canada Battalion>.........128 Supplies, 61 Morale, 3 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 2 XP gain, partial repair, 1 arty Tube lost
Hong Kong Fortress.................285 Supplies, 61 Morale, 3 Fatigue, 0 Disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Winnipeg Grenadiers Battalion......94 Supplies, 60 Morale, 2 FAtigue, 0 disruption, 1 xp gain, no repair, no losses
Kowloon Brigade...................314 Supplies, 30 Morale, 2 Fatigue, 0 disruption, 1 xp gain, no repair, no losses
102nd RN Base Force...............106 supplies, 32 morale, 3 fatigue, 0 disruption, 0 xp gain, no repair, no losses


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hong Kong Supplies 17695 vs No Combat 17320 = +375
Total Supplies 18677 vs No Combat 18595 = +82
Supplies T7 18677 vs Supplies T6 18718 = -41

Final analysis:

Seems that defending units are using less supply under bombardment than just with having the enemy in the hex. It is also apparent that with an average of 45 supplies used per turn, this would be a very, very long siege. 415 days if we use the Turn 7 supply level.

Also, the defender is able to replace losses as fast or faster than the attacker can damage them, all of this while suffering no fatigue, no disruption and on morale hits (which all 3 should be hit). Also, the attacking units seem to be suffering more damage and disruption than the defending units. This just seems backwards to me.

I suggest the following changes in artillery:

1. The bug fix.
2. Morale should have a chance of damage from heavy bombardment, without regard to fortifications.
3. Units should have a chance to be disrupted by bombardment.
4. Units should have a chance to suffer fatigue from bombardment.

I'm not going to suggest adding in extra damage or unit losses. The above fixes would be more than enough to properly simulate artillery. Artillery's biggest effect was pschycological, not necessarily in actual casualties.

ORIGINAL: Shark7


Hong Kong Supplies 17695 vs No Combat 17320 = +375
Total Supplies 18677 vs No Combat 18595 = +82
Supplies T7 18677 vs Supplies T6 18761 = -84

You used the wrong value it should be 18718...


Needless to say -

During the Non-combat test during those seven days the defender consumed 60 supply points on average...360 points and total...single day high = 70 ....single day low = 36.

Daily differences: 63,63,61,36,70,67


During the combat test the defenders supply cunsumption actually decreased by about 15-20 points per day... 259 total ...and 44 per day on average...

Through 5 turns - Daily Differences : 38, 44, 43, 50, 43, 41


Hopefully JWilkerson will address...its working as programmed but probably not as intended.


Edit: Good Summary by the way.

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Shark7


Hong Kong Supplies 17695 vs No Combat 17320 = +375
Total Supplies 18677 vs No Combat 18595 = +82
Supplies T7 18677 vs Supplies T6 18761 = -84

You used the wrong value it should be 18718...


Needless to say -

During the Non-combat test during those seven days the defender consumed 60 supply points on average...360 points and total...single day high = 70 ....single day low = 36.

Daily differences: 63,63,61,36,70,67


During the combat test the defenders supply cunsumption actually decreased by about 15-20 points per day... 259 total ...and 44 per day on average...

Through 5 turns - Daily Differences : 38, 44, 43, 50, 43, 41


Hopefully JWilkerson will address...its working as programmed but probably not as intended.

And I still get the numbers wrong, I'll edit the post to correct that error as well. [8D]

I think you need to:

a> Turn off FOW - otherwise the results are bogus.
b> Have a 'control' group that fires into clear hex with no forts - maybe move 1/2 the defenders into a neighbor hex and fire 1/2 tubes at that hex

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

I think you need to:

a> Turn off FOW - otherwise the results are bogus.
b> Have a 'control' group that fires into clear hex with no forts - maybe move 1/2 the defenders into a neighbor hex and fire 1/2 tubes at that hex

He was looking at both sides - FoW was not an issue.

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

I think you need to:

a> Turn off FOW - otherwise the results are bogus.
b> Have a 'control' group that fires into clear hex with no forts - maybe move 1/2 the defenders into a neighbor hex and fire 1/2 tubes at that hex

FoW was turned OFF for the 7 day v 7 day tests.

If anyone else wishes to test artillery, feel free. I warn you it is quite a bit of work to get these numbers. I have no doubt that you will get better attacker results in a clear hex, but as treespider has stated, this test has already proved that bombarded units are using LESS supply than units that are not attacked at all. You have to read the entire thread and all the results to be fully informed on the final outcomes.

Thanks shark artillery needs to be redone because at present it is useless, In open hexes it works but in forts or bases it does not work. With all due respect to everybody testing something is very tedious and time consuming so if somebody like shark test something say thank you to him as he is wasting a lot of time to prove something for the community.