Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

English is my best foreign language and I somtimes think in english even. But problem in europe is not english but the fact that germans want to speak german, french want to speak french, italians want to speak italian, etc. Because of this english alone isnt always enough. Ive met som germans that are very nutty about their language. I just wish everyone could have atleast one common language. As a citizen of minor country I speak finnish, swedish, english and german but even that doesnt seem to be enough at times. The big non-english countries in europe somtimes seem a bit uppity from my point-of-view. I mean I can forgive russians for having problems with english but germans? Not.

We're just lazy. Germany is a large market for entertainment products and almost everything get localized here. Also there is still a difference between reading comprehension, something you learn by playing games or reading websites, and actually speaking a language. Albeit I can talk English, at least to a certain degree, I usually prefer to chat in German - for convenience. [:D]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I've noticed that a large number of players in these forums are in various parts of Europe but are perfect in English. I always thought that English was only in Great Britain. Am I wrong in assuming that? Not trying to be a wise guy, I'm genuinely curious.

Learning English is mandatory in Germany (5th - 10th grade, kids can leave after 10 years of school). If kids opt for a college-preparatory education, where they then would graduate after 13 years (reduced to 12 years now), they have to take English classes until 12th grade, their cert of having passed the "Abitur" (German university entrance qualification) won't be accepted as cert for uni matriculation in some German states, otherwise. Scholars used to be allowed to drop English after 11th grade when there were 13 school years, but such cert was not accepted by some universities (by law, in some states).
Also, universities require an advanced or intermediate proficiency in Latin for some subjects (eg. medical science).

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

If you are from germany and love wargames you have to speak english. Otherwise you are screwed [:D]

True. Matrix would have a bigger customer base if they'd be able to provide translations (manual, GUI) for all their products. Many Germans (who don't need English for their jobs or who don't get to practice speaking it every day), have a rather bad command of English, so that some explanations in English manuals are beyond their grasp. And I guess quite some are too lazy to employ translation tools. Still, if you get to a German town, and say you'd ask for directions or help, many people (and not just youngsters) will try their best to reactivate their English and help.
That may be different in France, or say Italy. [:)]

When I was around 14, I went to France for a student exchance (like 1 week), and I was pretty surprised that most people in the host family did not manage to form more than one or 2 English sentences. The only person with an acceptable English level was the father, who could even speak some German, as he had worked as a cook in Germany, for a few years. So we kept switching from English to German, it was pretty funny. But that was a rare exception.
My mother participates in an exchange program her hometown set up a few years ago, where French and German families become hosts alternately, like 1 or 2 times a year. Around 1 year ago, she had a French guest, a female student of chemistry, who did not understand more than "yes" and "no". My mother saw it as an opportunity to improve her French, while she offered the student to learn some German (well, fair enough), but since I am used to switch to English, in cases where I don't get far with other languages (I studied French for 4 years, but forgot most of it, even though I can read French and Spanish sources to some extent), this was rather a strange experience.
It took some 20 minutes to "squeeze" [;)] small bits of infos (like what university she was going to and what major she had picked, etc.) out of her, hehe, something you deal with (in English) within less than a minute, usually.

In my experience, this deals with political ambitions in France, namely the ambition to suppress anglicisms in French language and culture, coming from the French ministry of culture (with quite some administrations, during the last 20 years), which enhances such focus on their own language even more. I think that I am not generalizing, if I say that I suspect that it takes the average "Joe" (in France) quite some effort to get to a decent level of English, and quite some of the French seem to think it's not needed anyways.
The French school system may have changed now, with all the regulations and laws being employed by the European Union nowadays, but in France the English language was treated like a poor cousin, for decades. Same with countries in Eastern Europe, mostly for political reasons, not cultural reasons, though.

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

I mean I can forgive russians for having problems with english but germans? Not.

Well, you do quite some Germans wrong if you generalize like that.

If you get to East Germany, for example, you may find people from particular age groups rather employing some impressive Russian skills than English skills, as they had lived behind the "iron curtain", just like East European people who lived in states of the "Warsaw Pact". Visitors who come to Germany seem to forget that, or they may not think about. Also, it's not like East Germans just live in East Germany or in or around Berlin, as a massive number of East Germans relocated after the reunion. There are many counties in rural areas or areas close to the Polish border that are deserted.

ORIGINAL: Lützow

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

......I mean I can forgive russians for having problems with english but germans? Not.

We're just lazy. Germany is a large market for entertainment products and almost everything get localized here. Also there is still a difference between reading comprehension, something you learn by playing games or reading websites, and actually speaking a language. Albeit I can talk English, at least to a certain degree, I usually prefer to chat in German - for convenience. [:D]

Well, not all Germans are lazy. [:)]
But you're right, if you say that there's a difference between actually being able to speak English (and pronouncing it correctly!) or just having to write it in forums or chat rooms ... as different as chalk and cheese. Some Germans get shy if it comes to speaking English, but that's just because of their lack of practice, and lack of opportunities to practice it. Plus, the "th" uses to break their tongues, too, hehe.

The Swedish habit to play original movies (English with swedish subtitles) is a great way to enhance a population's English skills. On the other hand, I don't know what that would do to their native language skills. AFAIK, even many university courses are held in English, over there.
Same with some Dutch colleges or universities.

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

Well, not all Germans are lazy. [:)]
But you're right, if you say that there's a difference between actually being able to speak English (and pronouncing it correctly!) or just having to write it in forums or chat rooms ... as different as chalk and cheese. Some Germans get shy if it comes to speaking English, but that's just because of their lack of practice, and lack of opportunities to practice it.

That's me but I can get over it after a beer or two. And fortunally native English speakers are more forgiving against foreigners abusing their language.

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

A LOT of native born English(USA version) speakers are horrid when it comes to the language. When I do work(not often due to medical reasons and the need not to) I deal with children. Four out of five do not wish to  or just can't grasp basic language principles. Basically, here in Buffalo, if you want to hear the correct way to pronounce something, find someone who has English as a second lanuage.Which is sad really.....

Good for you. Now go to there native country and try the same test... You see, when you "know" a language at birth, you get lazy and pick up bad habits before you get to school. You also may have no love of studying the language.

When you have to learn it as a second language, you have no choice but to understand the grammar as that is the way you are taught the language (this is from personal experience, I actually learnt English grammar because of I studied Russian and our tutor insisted we do this to better deal with the Russiian grammar. I love my native language as do many native students of English (whichever brand) and we know our grammar, like [:)]

That is the beauty of most languages, when you enjoy using them they allow you to be more creative with the grammar as well. English is often used incorrectly by some of the best authors intentionally. There is a poem by Keats (La Belle Dame sans merci) if you read for correct form and grammar then you will claim the poet is poor at his own language. If you read it as to the reasons for the form you will understand what an incredible use of the language it is.

That is sometimes the disadvantage of having English as a second language, you maybe forget it is a growing, very flexible language. Read English from the time of Chaucer and you can see this.

Anyway, I don't dispute your experience, I am sure there are many native speakers who mangle a good prose. And long may it continue... [:D]

I had enough of Chaucer, Shakespeare and Marlowe in high school, thank you very much... And while you might be right, it still rankles me to see the English language mangled so heavily by lazy-ass types.

ORIGINAL: billyjj

They require a foreign language in most US schools, it is treated as a novelty and not even the teacher really expects you to actually learn French. In Europe they take studying a lot more seriously than in the US.

Good assessment, at least the part I quoted. (I left out the rest because that's a different topic.) In Louisiana, for example, in the college preparatory curriculum, you must take two years of a foreign language at the high school level (roughly ages 14-18). Most schools offer Spanish. Mine offers Spanish and French but is discontinuing French due to budget cuts. However, students who take two years of Spanish or French can not really speak Spanish or French. They can simply translate a few words and read a little of the language. Students not in the college prep program are not required to take a foreign language.

On the other hand, before my last military tour in Germany in the mid 1980s, I had to take an intensive course in conversational German, and was thus able to speak enough German to get by in simple transactions. My wife took the course, too. I actually think we would do better in our schools if we taught our foreign languages as conversational courses rather than as foreign language grammar courses.

But one must remember on the other hand that most Americans will never leave America and will meet very few non-English speakers (except for the growing number of Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal).

ORIGINAL: DampSquib

[quote:
Original: Joe Black
Go visit The Liverpool Way for an incredible mix. ]

Made me remember this....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBYlXfjKru4[:D]
just a bit...

Okay, don't go there and stay on topic [:D]

I wish my usage of languages foreign to me was half as good as the usage of my native English by most foreigners.

I've traveled all over the world and I can say from my own experience that English is almost universal, however you always need to try to communicate by other means. Some places I've gotten by with the simplest gestures and sounds.

I have to be honest though, the most rouble I've had with non English speaking people is here in the US. The rest of the world, I've gotten by. In the US, I sometimes want to scream at people.

It should be noted however that I've never travelled to France. Belgium yes, Germany Yes, Denmak Yes, Netherlands Yes, Italy Yes, blah blah blah. On and On.

Funny thing about German, I found it easy to understand if you don't try to read it and you just listen closely.

I lived in Germany for eight years during the seventies and nearly everyone speaks at least some english. Typically girls more than boys. One reason is that foreign languages are offered in the schools, and english is the most usefull foreign language. None of the schools I went to, including college, offered any foreign laguage other than spanish.

Another reason is Americns think everything kewl comes from America. Speciffically America, not the U.K. or Canada. Germans asked me to tutor them on American English, and how to pronouce worde the American way. When it comes to fast food, movies, music, clothes, books, and especially soldiers, if it's American, it rocks. European girls love American G.I.s They can't get enough of them. Trust me on this one, I know. If you're an American G.I., and you want to know what it feels like to have women fighting over you, you need to take a vacation in Europe.

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I wish my usage of languages foreign to me was half as good as the usage of my native English by most foreigners.

That's not a limitation in you Greybriar or your countrymen, i would say it is all a matter of motivation and availability. When I lived in the Netherlands, everyday we watched television or listened to the radio and what did we hear? English all the time (and German because we were close to the border). My then Dutch girlfriend, was fluent in English and German and not bad at French. She was the one who put the idea to me that this accessibilty of the English language gave motivation to learn and the opportunity to hear it everyday. She spoke English with an American accent and sang with an American accent [:)].

I was lucky, I had the motivation and circumstances to learn foreign languages and so I did. I never felt the need to critisise the native speakers for what I perceived as poor grammar, I just listened to them and learned some interesting ways that they use their language, colloquialisms.

I guess I see people as individuals, all have a brain, all are capable in the right circumstances and with the right motivation.

I don't particulalry like some of the sweeping statements in this thread about certain "groups" of people being less than others because it doesn't make sense and is just plain elitism in my opinion. For example "it is almost always the the people from the UK who have appalling grammar", or pointing out a single mistake in one of my posts (here's anotherr feuw for yoo junk2 drive).

That's not my game, but feel free to find some more grammatical errors in my posts if you feel it makes your point [:D]

As they say in Liverpool, "Me? I can't be arsed" [:D]

My apologies if I offended you.

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My apologies if I offended you.

I think we both feel strongly about something, and as such I don't except your apology... because none was needed [:)]

Now if you thought I had a point after all this writing, then that would be cool [:D]


edit:
Actually, that was pretty graceless of me, I accept the spirit in which the apology was made and I would also wish I have not offended you in any way.

ORIGINAL: JW



However, students who take two years of Spanish or French can not really speak Spanish or French. They can simply translate a few words and read a little of the language. Students not in the college prep program are not required to take a foreign language.

That's what happened to my 16 year old daughter. I asked her why after a year of Spanish she still could not speak any of it and she told me that course "just goes through the motions."

My wife was born and raised in the Philippines and speaks perfect text book English(She told me that they speak English in grade school all the way through college). When she first came here to the States in 1990(Damn, I've been married almost 20 years? [X(] ) she had problems understanding American English. Threw her for a loop.

I learned Tagalog from text books. I'll be speaking Tagalog with my wife and she'll stop me and tell me that no one speaks such and such word anymore, even though it's in the dictionary.

One thing I do have to say is that I was born and raised with English and everyone's grammar here puts mine to shame.

Considering the english language my experience is mostly from internet but what I learned is that I never had problems with americans. I spent seven years talking with them on payd forum and the only conflict I ever had was with mexicans.

I won't add much to the points already made by the other Germans, as they were fairly comprehensive - English skills are more or less expected, and when one is asked which foreign languages one speaks, the general implication seems to be "foreign languages in addition to English".
That point still seems lost on a large number of young people, whose English skills don't really extend beyond a crude mix of school English and whatever they picked up on the internet. Not that you can't communicate with that, but it's not necessarily English anymore - I think it was the BBC that had an article or even a series while back on how English as a lingua franca (and at a fairly high, i.e. business level, at that) could be notoriously hard to understand for native speakers...

To be fair, however, one has to take into account that an increasing number of (young) people in this country are not actually native German-speakers, and English subsequently isn't the first foreign language they have to learn, but the second or even third.

For me, that second foreign French, and to be fair, I shouldn't claim to be able to speak that, as I hardly ever have need to do so, and my pronounciation is horrible because of it. I'm always a bit ashamed of that, since while I mainly need good reading comprehension for university, I live close enough to France to easily be able to hone my French if I wanted to.

Latin complements the package, but I have no love for that language, nor am I any longer very good at it, as GoodGuy already pointed out, it was required as a qualification to get into university in the first place, and hasn't been needed much since then.

And while I think it's admirable that most Germans, even those with a very limited grasp of English, do try to accomodate others by using it when possibl, the results sometimes just make me cringe, and if/when professional translators are available, such vile aural attacks should be avoided (yes, I'm looking at you, Mr. Oettinger >;)).

What's worse though, and really annoys me, is the often garbled translations one gets as part of the news, both on radio and TV. These usually come by way of voice-over a second or two into the foreign language being spoken, and more often than not, if you do actually understand what's being said by the foreign speaker, you'll quickly realize that there are subtle (or sometimes quite grave) differences in meaning. I could live with that if they blocked out the foreign language completely, but since it can still be heard behind the voice-over, it's like a constant reminder that they're getting it wrong.

I've had a friend from the US comment on that while he was staying in Germany, that was quite an embarassing moment... but I guess it doesn't say much about how Germans treat foreign languages, but rather more about how TV and radio stations try to cut costs... ;x

You mean like this? [;)]

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel

Same here Vasquez,

Must have been years ago, I´ve seen a game manual written in the German language.

I didn´t care about my English language for many years. As I got back to wargaming, I recognized that it is important for me to improve my English skills. The use of the English language, for example, here at Matrix, is far better than in any playstation forum I´ve been so far.

So, meanwhile, I care about words I don´t know and use a translator. Sometimes,I think, it would be nice if someone would correct me if I´m wrong.

uhhh, that hurts ,   [:D]

but that was exactly, what I asked for. [8|]

Seems to be the only way to improve my english skills.

thanks hermanhum

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Joe Black, yes I used a broad brush. What I have noticed is that when I see a poorly done post, too many times the poster lists UK as his/her location ...

What was that line from "My Fair lady"?
"Why can't the English speak English?" or lyrics to that effect?

Hi, quite a few left over after the original exodus down highway 401 to Toronto in the 70's.
By and large, English is tolerated in Quebec. They will answer in English in most large cities, but woe to you if you serve them in English. In Montreal, where one could get greeted ( first) in English, it has become a huge issue. I would say, however, language issues have definitely taken second stage to the Economy and political independance.

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

When it comes to people having problems with English, I would have to guess the people in Quebec are the most uptight about it.  Many of them still never forgave the Brits for winning that siege a few hundred years ago or so   And many still feel anything to do with English is a threat to their culture.  It wasn't that long ago that just posting a sign in English would get you arrested (no joke).  There are still places there that may still abide by that code (not sure now).  Anyone know what the current situation is over there?