Matrix Games Forums

I haven't been buying many computer games lately and the few I have bought didn't have any type of copyright protection other than a serial number requirement, so I'm a bit in the dark about this subject. Could some one please explain to me what DRM is and the negative aspects of it. I have no idea what Steam is. I'd just like to know in case I ever do think about buying a game that incorporates this. Thanks.

I've bought a couple things through STEAM and it's worked ok for me. However, I really like the option of NOT HAVING to go through it if I don't want to do so.

As a consumer, I demand choice....if a vendor won't give it to me...then there is a good chance he'll do without my business. I haven't decided about Civ5 yet...but this is definately a strike against.

Once again...makes me appreciate Matrix Games...the only thing one has ever required of me is to enter a seriel number for my purchase.... which is completely reasonable in my book.

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I haven't been buying many computer games lately and the few I have bought didn't have any type of copyright protection other than a serial number requirement, so I'm a bit in the dark about this subject. Could some one please explain to me what DRM is and the negative aspects of it. I have no idea what Steam is. I'd just like to know in case I ever do think about buying a game that incorporates this. Thanks.

DRM in itself is not necessarily a bad or negative thing. It is the implementation of DRM that can and does have a negative impact upon the gaming community, in my opinion.

DRM is a method of attempting to protect your software from being copied and distributed illegally and therefore losing sales. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But like all things aimed with good intentions, you end up with the abuse of power that DRM brings to the companies.

Serial registration that does not involve installing anything on your PC is reasonable DRM that causes no harm to your PC and is low on the PITA scale.

DRM that install low level drivers on your system, often without asking is the worst. It can open up holes for viruses, crash your system and in some people's opinion damage your hardware. Don't be fooled if you have a serial registration only with this DRM. It will still install itself on your PC. Securom, Tages, Starforce, are examples of this. My experience is my system is not as stable with this on it. Medium on the PITA scale raising to high.

These DRM's are often accompanied by install limits, phone home to play, or even being connected to their server all the time to play. Not very customer friendly. Games like Bioshock 2 is an example of this (and the Sub game?). Very high on the PITA scale.

STEAM. You can play offline with this, but you need to set it up. You do need to install the steam software but I have never found it to be a problem like the low level drivers (correct me, anyone who knows different). Can also come packaged with any of the DRM just above. It does have a unique restriction in that you have to have an account with them and they can disable that account and therefore take all those games you purchased away from you in the blink of an eye. Low PITA can become huge PITA in the blink of an eye.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 DRM. Haven't found any low level drivers, system has not been effected as far as I can tell, all very stable. Low on PITA scale plus love the DLC and it is quite cheap. I know it is EA but this seems to be alright and I have no issues with it. Does not need an internet connection to play. They also removed the DLC check that made items disappear if you failed to contact server on load. EA listening? I am still on the fence....

For me, it is what the companies do with the DRM that is the problem, not necessarily the DRM.

I have taken the policy of not allowing any of the low level driver DRM on my system. My system has gone from buggy and odd crashes to stable and all the games on it play without issues (including Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2).


Hope this helps, sorry if it's a bit long.

Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?

It's required to be on the package, by law, in the US. It's most often alluded to in the form of "requires internet connection to play" in the small lettering somewhere. That's for the ones that require online activation (often with limited amount of installs allowed at one time), or as some of the latest nastiness has - constant internet connection so that it will regularly check with the developer's server.

Steam is one that has an online requirement at least to install (yes, that includes only single-player). Some games on it can be played in "offline mode" after it's been installed & registered to your Steam account. A few you can't. It can also come with a second set of DRM from the rainblow of colors available. Some games on Steam have issues when you try to use mods for it.

Some of the problems I have with Steam specifically:

1) The game doesn't fully belong to you.
As mentioned, you can have your account locked, hacked, or other similar SNAFUs. You are not allowed to actually own a physical backup yourself that you can install without it. You must download the game from Steam each time you want to install it. They basically own the game and allow you to install it.

2) You're at the mercy of Steam's infrastructure:
Server problems? A new patch gets automatically installed on your Steam game and now you can't play your saved game or mod that you were playing last night because the patch made them incompatible? Bad install or download? Good luck getting it sorted out in a timely fashion. These are a couple examples. A few years down the road.. who's to say Steam will still support that game?

3) Not resaleable:
This kinda goes along with #1. You have an account with Steam and all your games are tied to it. If you bought a new game and didn't like it at all, too bad. You can't recoup some money and sell it to a friend unless you give them your whole account, which is likely an account-locking offense if Steam finds out about a change of account ownership or sharing. Quite a few people believe that preventing the secondary resale market for games is the main reason such crazy DRM software is being used.

4)Steam client runs in background:
Yes, even in offline mode, Steam still runs on your PC. It causes security holes on the internet but that's not my biggest issue. I don't like advertising software that uses computer resources and internet bandwidth needlessly running when I don't want it to. Companies that hide their software, still running, have always rankled me and Steam uses just such questionable practices. There's a reason people wipe spyware off their computers and now Steam requires theirs to be on it.

I'm sure I have more but I'm attempting to keep this relatively short. Likely fail.

These points far outweigh any "positive" points that Steam and Steambois like to point out. Such as:
*"I don't have to keep track of disks or put them in the drive. No limited amount of installations. It automatically downloads and installs new patches. It has multiplayer built in."*
Such "bonuses" are present in games from companies with reasonable DRM (like Matrix) today without treating their customers like criminals.

Which is the icing on the cake. I feel insulted by having Big Brother spying on me like I'm a felon. Perhaps they should just hand out lo-jacks and corresponding house arrest with each purchase.


EDIT: and JD, I knew you weren't being wholly serious, I just can't stop myself from ranting on this. Being a game addicted whore like I am, it makes it all the more frustrating when I've made a vow not to purchase such stuff on principle. So I vent and stick to my guns.

Just accomplished a fresh Windows setup. No way I would install Steam here. [;)]

Aside of this, I condemn Steam as matter of principle, because this system denies my rights on something I legally acquired. Regarding my dwindling interest in gaming it's no big forgoing for me to not purchase these products and I dislike companies who care more about shareholders than stakeholders anyway.

Fortunately I'm not so much in CiV. Last Firaxis game I actually played for a longer time was Alpha Centauri.

Steam,elicense and the others-I don't rent. New is not always better. What happens if the company goes belly up(even gamers gate)? Good by games. If this is the future I'll just pull my board games out. Did it for 20-25 years so another 10 or so won't kill me.[:-]

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

Thanks Joe. That helps answer my question. In most cases are you given ample warning before purchasing a game with intrusive DRM?

No problem, Dave.

In the UK, no.

Gamers gate do try to tell you what DRM is on the game but not always. I ussually carry out a bit of research to make sure. Can be a pain but it is a far smaller pain than installing the game and realising you have just installed the DRM as well.

I have to say I have become so hard nosed about it now, that if I can't be sure of the DRM state of a game, then I leave it. I figure that all good games have a fair chance of ending up on GOG in the future, and I can wait. Not like I can't pick up some excellent games from Matrix or Slitherine to keep me busy [:)]

Is anyone concerned that as I write this there are more posts on the non steam haters thread then this one? [X(]

No Yogi as steam haters don't have to post to puff themselves or their agenda up.

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns

No Yogi as steam haters don't have to post to puff themselves or their agenda up.

Touchee! Nice reply. Also thanks for helping to "puff" us up.

Polish friend of mine on another forum said it best:

My, uh, "adventure" with Steam begun last week, when I bought ETW at a store, and so far it didn't try to redownload the game. Though with my internet connection, it would take two weeks, so I guess I'll just default to offline just to be safe.

It was an annoying piece of crap from the start: the night I bought the game I had two hours of free time, so I decided to check it out, but nooo...it had to get all the updates nownownow and wouldn't let me play it at all. A day afterwards, my wife wanted to understand what's going on during the game, so I decided to switch the language to Polish. Did it ask me to confirm, warning that 2 gigs of patches would need to be redownloaded?

Fuck no. No game for you, fuckface! Come back tomorrow!

For god's sake, I don't have unlimited time for Steam to waste whenever it feels like it.

Someone else:

Some steam games have to be redownloaded completely everytime time a patch comes out. I know Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor is that way for certain. It has something to do with the way patching works through steam, supposedly any edited files have to be redownloaded, and how a particular game handles patches. For example, apparently one of the patches for retail CoH:ToV was only 26 Mb, but because how the game is designed enought files end up getting changed that you have to redownload the entire 8 GB or so.

quote:My, uh, "adventure" with Steam begun last week, when I bought ETW at a store, and so far it didn't try to redownload the game. Though with my internet connection, it would take two weeks, so I guess I'll just default to offline just to be safe. It was an annoying piece of crap from the start: the night I bought the game I had two hours of free time, so I decided to check it out, but nooo...it had to get all the updates nownownow and wouldn't let me play it at all. A day afterwards, my wife wanted to understand what's going on during the game, so I decided to switch the language to Polish. Did it ask me to confirm, warning that 2 gigs of patches would need to be redownloaded? **** no. No game for you, ****face! Come back tomorrow! For god's sake, I don't have unlimited time for Steam to waste whenever it feels like it.

 
Lol that is so damn funny. Sad as it is it's just like something from a Mad Tv sitcom episode.

I wouldn't worry Yogi...most of the posts in my thread are from "you lot" anyway

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

Polish friend of mine on another forum said it best:

My, uh, "adventure" with Steam begun last week, when I bought ETW at a store, and so far it didn't try to redownload the game. Though with my internet connection, it would take two weeks, so I guess I'll just default to offline just to be safe.

It was an annoying piece of crap from the start: the night I bought the game I had two hours of free time, so I decided to check it out, but nooo...it had to get all the updates nownownow and wouldn't let me play it at all. A day afterwards, my wife wanted to understand what's going on during the game, so I decided to switch the language to Polish. Did it ask me to confirm, warning that 2 gigs of patches would need to be redownloaded?

Fuck no. No game for you, fuckface! Come back tomorrow!

For god's sake, I don't have unlimited time for Steam to waste whenever it feels like it.

Someone else:

Some steam games have to be redownloaded completely everytime time a patch comes out. I know Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor is that way for certain. It has something to do with the way patching works through steam, supposedly any edited files have to be redownloaded, and how a particular game handles patches. For example, apparently one of the patches for retail CoH:ToV was only 26 Mb, but because how the game is designed enought files end up getting changed that you have to redownload the entire 8 GB or so.

Company of Heroes makes you download the world every time you patch anyways.. very annoying patching system.. and I don't use STeam for COH!!!