Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ElchDivision

France 1940? Would be to short for a standalone game, that could be done in a small add-on [:D]

I prefer not answer this treacherous attack [;)] [:)]

Seriously, I think it's possible to make between 15-20 scénarios.
Moreover, this will be an interresting challenge to play with the french forces.
The french equipements wasn't lower than the german equipements.
It was just the way the French officers have used this one which precipitated the fall of France.
Statistically, the French army was as strong as the German army.

But you have likely reason. It could be done in add-on

ORIGINAL: Chaudart

ORIGINAL: ElchDivision

France 1940? Would be to short for a standalone game, that could be done in a small add-on [:D]

I prefer not answer this treacherous attack [;)] [:)]

Seriously, I think it's possible to make between 15-20 scénarios.
Moreover, this will be an interresting challenge to play with the french forces.
The french equipements wasn't lower than the german equipements.
It was just the way the French officers have used this one which precipitated the fall of France.
Statistically, the French army was as strong as the German army.

But you have likely reason. It could be done in add-on

Might as well throw in the Poles, Scandanavians, Be-Ne-Lux countries with a COTA:Blitzkrieg! expansion pack.

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: Llyranor

Since this seems to be a smaller project and part of it has been done already, this might be a good idea as the next project. As long as it covers the main scenarios (XXX Corps breakout, entire 101st/82nd/1st areas), this sounds good. I would highly suggest making this a standalone expansion, though. Many devs are doing this nowadays; it builds up on the current engine (BFTB), but doesn't require owning the vanilla game. This will thus allow sales from people interested in Market-Garden, but who don't own BFTB for whatever reason.

I can see merit in this approach but I also merit in the more traditional approach of requiring the original BFTB game. If we do a standalone then we'll have to do a full set of manuals, a new tutorial and a full set of tutorial movies. These took between four and five months of my time to develop. If we are also to add any new features, then it would be better to avoid what is in effect a duplication of effort. If we require BFTB, then all we need is a What's New manual and a What's New movie. This would be a lot less effort and could mean we get the data content out to you guys a lot quicker.

How about including the original tutorial and movies? You could point that it IS, in fact, an expansion, even if standalone, and that the included tutorial of St-Vith represents the same game system. Don't think the tutorial not being based on Market-Garden should be much of an issue, since it IS after all just a tutorial, plus the extra setting could even potentially be considered a bonus for those who don't have BFTB. Kind of like how COTA has 2 desert maps (post-patch, I know, but same premise) or how some of SSG's games like Battles in Normandy also have the Ardennes Offensive.

From there on, just include an extra 'what's new' movie and section in the manual.

I think this should be seriously considered. For BFTB, it doesn't really affect them either way. However, if it's not standalone, you potentially shut out a lot of people who don't already own BFTB (eg. they like Market-Garden, but don't care about Bulge, or whatever other reason), because the price of both the core game and expansion will be significantly steeper than either one alone. From a business, it sounds like it'd make sense.

One expansion pack that has the 10 best battles from HTTR

Another expansion pack that has the 10 best battles from COTA

A separate game might be named “Patton’s Breakout” and covers the fast flowing break out from Normandy into Western France and the German counterattack in that region.

When you move to the Russian front you will really need a strategic layer! The first game, named Barbarossa, would cover battles from June 1941 to September 1942.

The next game, named Stalingrad, would cover battles from Stalingrad to the fall of Berlin.

A game covering the Western desert would be great with this game engine. It too would need a strategic layer.

The full Market Garden Operation as one large scenario.

-

The Eastern Front would definitely be good, and perhaps North Africa. Personally I have never played to any great extent any of the Normandy games that I bought - and I have the main ones. I guess I don't go much for invasion games, so forget about a Sealion game.

Also I like games where there is a lot of maneuver as opposed to games like Korsun Pocket with two lines slugging it out.I didn't play much Korsun Pocket but The Ardennes Offensive was great fun for me, and I will never buy a WW1 game.

So my first choice would be a Barbarossa game.

Henri

Operation cobra, and normandy battles comes into my mind, reusing done investments.

If size of the eastern frony battles are good enough I would like to see charkov , and operation citadel (kursk), and winter war and continuation war in Finland/ Russia also. The reason for the last request is that not any good tabletop game covers these battles.

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

What we have in the works already are some scenarios covering the HTTR battles. We can't just use the old HTTR scenarios as too much has changed to salvage these. So they havge to be rebuilt from scratch. We have already converted the maps. The BFTB estabs include the HTTR estabs. We have developed five of the large scenarios so far. One option is to develop a suite of say 10 or so scenarios and release an expansion pack for HTTR. We could probably do that over the next few months.

Will this involve paying for the expansion? I recently bought HTTR. The prospect of the (improved) scenarios being released as a paid expansion for BFTB is, quite frankly, disheartening.

However, if this is free (and hopefully a rebuilt COTA as well), then it's great news.

To add to the discussion - I would absolutely love to see battles from the Mediterranean and North Africa. East front would be great as well, but there's enough games covering that already, so this could wait.

But Mediterranean and NA? Bring it on.

And please, when you make a poor student spend all his money on the Bulge, build the expansions so that they actually require Bulge, so that they can be priced cheap.

What I would like to see, in order of demand:

1. HTTR converted to the new engine. If you JUST converted the historical campaign scenarios without any other upgrades or perks I would pay $5.
2. Contemporary warfare game, I would love to see something like Combat Mission Shock Force in Airborne Assault gameplay fashion. In fact, I would die happy if this happened.
3. Vietnam/korea
4. Case Yellow and Case Red - Battle for France. I would love to blitz 30 corps style into french lines.
5. Stalingrad campaign

And please, when you make a poor student spend all his money on the Bulge, build the expansions so that they actually require Bulge, so that they can be priced cheap.

I'm not advocating making the new Market-Garden pack a full-fledged new game in the series with massive upgrades to the engine. However, I think it can be *both* an expansion AND standalone, and priced accordingly AS an expansion. As such, people can expect similar features to BFTB, with minimal (or even none, since there are already massive improvements since the HTTR days). It would just include the BFTB engine, but running Market-Garden scenarios instead.

Why I think it being a standalone expansion would be beneficial to everyone:
- Priced as an expansion, it should not affect BFTB owners in any way, since they already have that game anyway. Maybe even a discount for BFTB owners (which I think they would really appreciate).
- Standalone means that people who do NOT have BFTB can also buy it. They would already have the BFTB demo to try it out (the setting being different doesn't change the game engine; and the videos/tutorials are already done). Maybe there will be a slight premium (or no discount) if they don't own BFTB, but it is STILL cheaper than buying both BFTB *and* the xpac together. Maybe the discount could go both ways; people who own the xpac could get a discount on BFTB. I think this would be reasonable, as people can buy one, or the other (expanding the market beyond just people who want BOTH titles), and a discount could encourage people who own one to get the other as well.
- It all sounds complicated, but I think the main point here is that, if it is priced as an expansion pack anyway, making the xpac standalone simply *expands* your market.
- In terms of the work required to making it standalone vs requiring BFTB, you already have the videos/tutorials. The other main thing would be simply to make the xpac program not be able to play BFTB scenarios. Maybe I'm underestimating the work involved, but it doesn't sound like too much (when the advantage would be *expanding* your potential customer base).

Some devs are doing this nowadays (most recent example I can think of is Dawn of War 2 and its xpac Chaos Rising).

Go for an HTTR expansion first since you've already done part of the work (besides I never bought HTTR myself ). I think it's a wise move to get another product on the Market (Garden ) fast.

ORIGINAL: Llyranor
... a standalone expansion would be beneficial to everyone

In my naïve but enlightened way I would suggest the following market scheme that would benefit both Panther and your customers:

Make the HTTR "expansion" a stand-alone game. Include the BFTB tutorial videos + 1 what's new video. Including the original tutorial videos they will have the additional value as an advertising for BFTB. Why not include the BFTB demo on the DVD if possible to give another taste of BFTB.

Set the price in parity with BFTB for people who don't already own BFTB but make it much (= MUCH) cheaper for those who already payed premium for BFTB.

Along the same lines sell BFTB at the same reduced "expansion" price for those who bought the upcoming re-vamped HTTR "expansion". To me this seems to be the fair way to market these games.

I guess you could go along much in the same lines with an updated COTA. Let newcomers make a heavier investment in the series but be kind to those who made that investment.


Regarding the sequencing of games I am confident I will enjoy whatever comes along in almost any order.

I second the idea I of making a Blitzkrieg-"expansion" containing both Poland, Belgium, France and Norway (Denmark was no real fight IIRC). Then again what about French doctrine? You won't be able to use the BFTB engine unmodified for French doctrine as little as for Soviet. By this I'm trying to say that it might be a bigger undertaking than "just" making maps, estabs and scenarios.

An eastern front major new game would be nice. You could probably get quite a number of expansions out of going east covering Finland to Caucasus (the old boardgame "Black Sea - Black Death springs to mind) to Budapest and Berlin. It feels like Stalingrad and Kursk has been done to death but that also goes for the Bulge so you might be able to pull them off with the superior engine and forward thinking of yours. Do a Firebrigade remake!


What about making two Mediterranean games:

1. COTA+North Africa (that would exclude an updated original COTA).
2. Italy: Sicily, Anzio etc. I'm not deeply versed in the Italian campaign history but since there were no real break-throughs (?) it might be a dull game except for the aforementioned battles.

Normandy? For sure. A bit one-sided but still interesting as a sim.

In the end I guess most of the grogs would like to be able to pick more or less any operation of WWII. Just keep 'em coming!

Someone mentioned modern warfare... well at least do Middle East or Korea if you want history.
It would work like the Shrapnel games but this game engine is definitely more polished that what they have now.



No one has mentioned the Pacific War!
But of course this entails new combat doctrines like Night Infiltration, Banzai, cave networks, jungle warfare. Very interesting.

But these are better as stand-alone games.

East Front with new combat doctrines. I will be even happier than I am already.

I would go with the HTTR and COTA upgrade for a very reasonable price for those that purchased BFTB. I don't yet own BFTB [will buy if it runs on my computer] but have HTTR. I read that the work is almost done, so with the surprise to everyone on the price of BFTB and the general negative reaction to it, i think getting something out quick and reasonablely priced is good PR. Perception is reality.

After that, Stalingrad interests me. I see a whole map of city blocks and wild urban battles and alot of o sh*t moments. Don't know if the engine can do that or not, but i drool anyway.

P.S. is Yakstock still around, BFTB Yakstock AAR would be great, sold me on HTTR.

Regards
budd

I am aware this game has no hexes, but I need to use the word “hexes’” to get my point across.

When a wargamer looks at a map, he sees counters and hexes.

In scenario 1, we are told that each hex represents 100 meters and each unit represents a company.

In scenario 2, we are told that each hex represents a kilometre and each unit represents a battalion.

As wargamers the different scales work OK because it’s a question of using the imagination. And yet the map and counters look much the same.

My suggestion then, is to make a full Market Garden scenario. The map covers the whole area from the start line of XXX Corps to that German held airfield just north of Arnhem.

The smallest unit on the map would be battalion but the game looks and plays just the same as it does now.

-

I would second a full Market Garden scenario.

I'm wary of another east Front game, there are so many out there, but from the posts it just might be a financial inevitability.

Normandy scenarios, Operation Varsity  Both use the Air landing routines as well as normal ground forces.

Africa, Kasserine, Bizerte, Founouk, Mareth, Medenine, Keren, Agordat as well as the better known battles.

Sicily & Italy

Sth East Asia & Pacific.

There are just so many potential scenarios & small campaigns

Oooo Africa would be fun, forgot to include that in my list. From Casablanca to the Nile. Also incursions in Syria and Palestine area.

Eastern front gets my vote. There are so many engagements to choose from here, we would have a wealth of scenarios to pick from, bot official and community made. I drool at the mere thought of this engine married to the east front.

I think two titles for the East Front should cover it. One wit a Russian Combat Doctirne and German Combat Doctirne for the first two years say of the war the other with two different combat doctrines for the second half of the conflict.

Once this is do then with the map maker and est editor the East Front can be covered by us the customers with no need for a further East Front game.

The desert would be nice, Tobruk, Syrian campaign The COTA OOB would be a start with battles.

I own both HTTR and COTA, but decided not to buy BFTB right back when it was announced because (i) I much prefer playing campaigns to individual battles, and so didn't get much play out of COTA, and (ii) I never want to play another Bulge/Normandy game ever again [:)]. So, I'd like to see a campaign - which could just be a large scale, multi-day, complete operation (would love to see the invasion of Crete or Market Garden done that way), and also something other than Bulge/Normandy.